Encounters: The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed!/Encounters - The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed (1995).iso/altalien/alt20.txt

Internet Message Format | 1995-10-20 | 1.3 MB

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From: [e-mail] (R. Kym Horsell)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 23:06:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <![e-mail]> <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz>
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In article <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz> morris@anasaz (Bob Morris) writes:
>What about the "stuff" ejected from Supernova 1987A that was observed
>at time t0 and later at time t1 at a distance d > (t1-t0) * C?  (If
>math is not your strong point, this simply means that the "stuff"
>moved a distance in a time that required speeds greater than C to
>accomplish).

Or the relevant neurinos actually were ejected during or perhaps
before the final collapse of the star and hence arrived before the
light pulse. ;-)

Using the skeptical approach, which is more likely:
(a) we don't understand the exact mechanics of stellar collapse;
(b) the speed of light was violated.

-kym
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From: system@spectrx
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Polar shift and Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 05:41:48 GMT
Organization: SPECTROX SYSTEMS [phone] Silicon Valley, Ca
Lines: 13

Does anyone know if the coming of the aliens(Talked about on this newsgroup)
that are supposed to come like around 1996, have anything to do with the
shift of the poles of the earth(supposed to happen in 2000).  If there was a
large asteroid that came into orbit around Earth(more talk from a.a.vis),
would that be of enough mass to help change the poles of the earth? I guess
it would depend on size and composure of the asteriod, but would it be
possible?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Anderer, System Operator                [e-mail]
SPECTROX SYSTEMS [phone]              szebra!spectrx!system
"Guess who's coming to dinner" -Chekov Star Trek VI
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 23:53:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <![e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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The problem with time travel is that it contradicts the law of causality.
Remember the Back to the future movies?
When the McFly travels back to 1955 the first time, the DeLorean tears off
at 88 mph and dissappears leaving a trail of flame (heat).  Although the
amount of heat energy which would be required to replace the mass of a
DeLorian (E=mc^2) would be greater than the energy of a zillion nuclear
explosions, let's get hypothetical and suppose it's equal to the diddly
heat observed in the movie.
    The DeLorian dissappears into the past leaving a whole heap of heat, so
the total energy contained in the universe is constant. On an otherwise
ordinary day in 1955 this DeLorian appears out of nowhere and it is really
*cold*.  The heat loss in appearing in 1955 is equivalent to the heat gain
observed in 1985, so once again the total energy of the universe remains
constant.
    Well all this is really nice, but the problem is that in 1955 - for no
apparrent reason - A whole heap of heat energy suddenly transforms into
a DeLorean in a kind of reverse nuclear reaction ( m=E/c^2 ).  Then 30 years
later - again, for no apparrent reason - a DeLorean spontaneously combusts
in a forwards nuclear style leaving a whole heap of heat.  The problem here
is causality - things *just dont* happen without a cause. (See also Second
law of thermodynamics)

    Well I hope that clears *that* up!

        ============================
        === CAPTAIN MARVEL JONES ===
        ============================

"Who is that loses that odd shoe you find lying in the gutter?"
    - Max Headroom.
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From: [e-mail] (Richard Caley)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 23:38:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <![e-mail]> <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz>
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In-Reply-To: morris@anasaz's message of 6 Dec 91 20:18:29 GMT


[ Note, I've pruned the newsgroups a wee bit and redirected followups. ]

In article <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz>, Bob Morris (bm) writes:

bm> Notice, however, that the experiments that demonstrated that the speed
bm> of light is a limit were based on accelerating a charged particle with
bm> electric and magnetic fields.   As the speed increased, the mass increased
bm> such that the mass becomes infinite at C.

Well, since most things you'd care to mention are made of charged
particles and, when you get down to it, most ways of accelerating
things involve shoving things with electric or magnetic fields (the
exceptions being shoving them with gravitational or strong or weak
nuclear fields), I'm not sure what you are saying.

Additionally there is experimental evidence for the other predictions
of relativity and although you _might_ come up with a theory which
predicts time dilation, Michelson-Moorly etc. but no singularity at
`c', there seems little reason to go out of your way to do so when GR
works so well.  Now, for those areas where it falls down, things are
different.

--
[e-mail]    That is not dead which can immortal lie,
            And with timeless ages even the line eater can die.
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From: [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hidden Aliens???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 01:23:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nancy Bulinski) writes:
>>Someone told me alittle of a bizzare story of alien bodies
>>being hidden by government authorities at some military
>>installation out west YEARS ago... maybe 50 years?  What
>
>The Roswell UFO crash occurred in 1947, with some lesser-known ones also
>occurring about that time.  The alleged bodies were allegedly taken to
>Wright-Patterson AFB.  The latest book on the case is "UFO Crash At
>Roswell" by Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt.  There's a book by Bill Moore
>from about ten years ago, too.  There's also a movie (partly fictional, I
>think) called "Hangar 18".  (Which was also the name of a recent song by
>Megadeth, but they don't have a lot to say.)

I don't mean to sound like someone who's jumped off the deep end of skepticism
here or anything, but I've lived in Dayton, Ohio for 18 years of my natural
life, and after seeing all the evidence that has been put forth over the
years, I have to tell you...

I'd lay even money on there being Alien bodies at Wright Patterson Air Force
Base.

I've met too many people from too many different points that claim to have
information about them (some of whom are DEFINITELY not the types to curry
scandal about the town) and I STILL believe that there's a LOT more going
on at Wright Pat than ANYONE believes.

For one thing, I've seen the overhead maps of the base area, and there's a
LOT of area that gets hidden by the landscape.  I think the facility is still
just as active a research facility as it ever was, and that the military is
trying to make it look like it's being "phased out".

All speculation...but hey, you gotta speculate sometime, right?

-Dave, the "what's WRONG with a 10 line .signature file" kinda guy!
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 03:33:00 GMT
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In a message to All <06 Dec 91 18:19> Open Locks... wrote:

 OL> From: [e-mail] (Open Locks...)
 OL> Date: 6 Dec 91 18:11:11 GMT
 OL> Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz
 OL> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 OL> Newsgroups:
 OL> alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,s
 OL> lt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,s OL> ig

 OL> What about the Einstein-Rosen hypothesis & the Klein solution to black-
 OL> hole event horizons????

What about the Aspect Experiment and observed FTL phenomena between decoupled photons?

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Hidden Aliens???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 03:36:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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In a message to All <06 Dec 91 18:20> Nancy Bulinski wrote:

 NB> From: [e-mail] (Nancy Bulinski)
 NB> Date: 6 Dec 91 17:44:51 GMT
 NB> Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
 NB> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 NB> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 NB> Someone told me alittle of a bizzare story of alien bodies
 NB> being hidden by government authorities at some military
 NB> installation out west YEARS ago... maybe 50 years?  What
 NB> is this about?  Can someone tell me, or give me a reference
 NB> book that this supposedly came from?  Thanks.

Hi Nancy -- there are a couple of books you can check out on the subject.

The Roswell Incident, by Charles Berlitz and William L. Moore, is in paperback and was the first investigative book published on the very odd doings in Roswell & Corona, New Mexico, in July 1947.

UFO Crash at Roswell by Kevin Randles and Don Schmidt, just published, considerably updates the story and is the product of exhaustive interviews with surviving witnesses and their families.

Finally, there is a very strange collection of .GIF image files circulating that purport to show an alien specimen.  They were supposedly digitized from a videotape of the thing.  They're available on my BBS as ALIEN1.GIF - ALIEN5.GIF.

Welcome to the wild, weird world of UFOlogy!

Best,
  Clark



--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 15:18:41 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>       I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened
>       and I really don't know what to do.
>       Please, does anybody know what to do?
>
>      A.COLLARD      [e-mail]

Don't worry so much.  Venus isn't the only planet that contains such
artifacts... I think information will turn up about other planets as well.
You're lucky to be a part of it.

Relax and enjoy the show. :-)

---
Mary Stanley "What a long, strange trip it's been"
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel M Zabetakis)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 15:20:12 GMT
References: <![e-mail]> <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz> <[e-mail]>
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    Hello. this is alt.config again.  Do have a good try at looking at
your newsgroup line when posting. This thread shouldn't be crossposted
to alt.config.

Danz


This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions, or
narratives contained herein are not necessarily true, and do not
necessarily represent the views of any particular person.
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 14:57:04 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
        >news. I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from
        > Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien

        Well You have  just shown that you are full of crap.  the Galileo
        mission is a mission  to Jupiter and not venus and is not equiped
        to do more that photograph venus.

        Nice try now go back to sleep.

        Steve
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From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: DOWN 18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 18:11:46 GMT
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In a previous article, [e-mail] (Clark Matthews) says:

>In a message to All <25 Nov 91 12:20> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> ro> From: [e-mail]
> ro> Date: 25 Nov 91 00:15:19 GMT
> ro> Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
> ro> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
> ro> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
>
> ro> We're looking for some videos on UFO's.  So far we've seen:
>
>Hello Roger!  Wonderful to hear from someone in good old Halifax!
>
>I have never seen one of the landmark UFO films:  _UFOs: Past, Present and Future_.  It was produced and directed by Robert Emmenegger in the 1970s, based on his book of the same name.
>
>I've heard the film is/was quite good, but I've been completely unable to obtain a screening, let alone a videocassette.
>
>Good luck in your quest, and please let me know if you locate the Emmenegger film on videocassette!
>
>Best,
>  Clark
>
>
>--
>Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
>UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
>INTERNET: [e-mail]
>

Yeah, I have it on Video.  It was retitled, We Are Not Alone.  It was
produced by Emmenger and can be seen late at night on T.V.
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From: [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 17:32:28 GMT
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[e-mail] (Stephen Andrew Rahe) writes:
>In article  <[e-mail]>  [e-mail] (Andy Wardley) writes:
>> Remember that we used to say that the Earth was flat,
>> man could never fly, and that no one could travel faster than the speed
>> of sound...
>    Actually, sailors always knew that the Earth was spherical, since the
>masts of ships appeared first on the horizon. The statement that
>Columbus proved "the Earth was round" is grossly inaccurate...

   Coincidentally, I just picked up an English translation of
Columbus' logbook.  Fascinating stuff.  It has nothing to do with
"proving the earth is round"; matter of fact the prime reason given
for the voyage was to find an easier route to the Indies, so that "the
heathens can be converted to the true faith".  (We won't discuss what
this implies here, except that Cortez later did a very bloody job of
"converting" the Aztecs.)

   Price is $14.92, in the Smithsonian Bookstore.  Somebody has a
sense of humor.

   Some old maps of the period show a round earth without the Americas.


--
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Corrupt Xref line!!  2197 --> sci.phys.skateboarding(1..0)
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From: [e-mail] (Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 18:39:28 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (The Renaissance Man) writes:
|>
|> In article <![e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick) writes:
|> ]
|> ]    BTW, I highly recommend Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of
|> ] Time".  It explains the current theories in plain english, without a
|> ] lot of mathematical mumbo jumbo.  Not too many proofs, but if you're
|> ] willing to accept his word on things then it can be very enlightening.
|>
|> Maybe my trouble is I'm not willing to just accept his word on things -
|> particularly some of the wilder and more unsubstantiated assumptions he
|> starts making in the closing chapters of the book.  I found the book as
|> a whole to be quite interesting, but the last couple of chapters to be
|> disappointing in the extreme.
|> Hawking is a brilliant astrophysicist, but I wish he'd stop pretending
|> to be a cosmologist as well.

I also did'nt like his book.  I read it but had to re-read many passages to
determine what it was he was saying.  I have also read "Einstein's Universe"
by Nigel Calder.  Both books cover the same subjects in laymens terms but
Calder's book was much better.  In fact, while reading Hawking's book, I would
turn to Calder's book to see what it was Hawking's was talking about and to get
a better explanation.  Obviously, I highly recommend Calder's book.

Jim Sullivan
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes:
>
> All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.

Yes.

Not only is it possible to travel in time, it is impossible not to
travel in time.  However, your velocity along the time axis is pretty
much fixed.  (ignoring relativistic effects).


--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow! BELA LUGOSI is my
Rosemount Inc.                                |co-pilot..
                                              |
[e-mail]                 |
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From: system@spectrx
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re:  Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 18:17:03 GMT
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[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
> >Okay, time travel is being debated, but what about teleportation?  Is this s
> >l a theory?
>
> In the psychic field there are rare reports of bilocation (being visible in
> two places at once) and teleportation, but the evidence is only anecdotal.
>
> In the physics field, the evidence is also only anecdotal and concerns the
> Navy accidentally teleporting a ship while trying to make it invisible.

ah, the Philidelphia Experiment, now that is an interesting occurence. Does
anybody have anymore info on it, other than the movie and some hearsay?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Anderer, System Operator                [e-mail]
SPECTROX SYSTEMS [phone]              szebra!spectrx!system
"Guess who's coming to dinner" -Chekov Star Trek VI
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From: [e-mail] (Muhanned AL-NUAIMY)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 19:46:43 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson) writes...
>>Another thing I've wondered about is... WHY are people being
>>abducted and then having tests done on them.  If the aliens (whatever)
>>are so smart and advanced wouldn't they already of figured out the human
>>body already?  Hmmmm....
>>
>   Only explanation I can think of, Gary... is that our evolution is being
>   monitored.  Now what do you suppose they are looking for?
>
 Well, if they're looking for intelligence then they've got a long
 search ahead of them.  Too bad earth man, if we want to join the
 celestial legions then we had better start figuring out who WE are, not
 who THEY are.

 supermo


===============================================================================
! Muhanned Al-Nuaimy                   ! Tel.:[phone]                  !
! [e-mail]           ! Addr.:4058 Clark,Montreal,PQ,H2W 1W9 !
!                                   Insert witty saying.....                  !
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From: [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stephen Andrew Rahe) writes:
>In article  <[e-mail]>  [e-mail] (Andy Wardley) writes:
>> Remember that we used to say that the Earth was flat,
>> man could never fly, and that no one could travel faster than the speed
>> of sound...
>    Actually, sailors always knew that the Earth was spherical, since the
>masts of ships appeared first on the horizon...

    Yes, but would these be the rest masts or the masts as measured
while the ship was in motion?  And, if the ships had no masts while at
rest, and therefore sailed at the speed of light, would you be
travelling faster than the speed of light if you walked from the stern
to the bow?  Or would you be travelling slower than the speed of light
if you walked from the bow to the stern?  What would happen if
somebody slammed the door between the cars in your face?

    Suppose that instead of visiting the Carribean Islands, Columbus
sailed through the Panama Canal and headed north toward the Aleutian
Islands.  Now, suppose that he saw them before they were within
line-of-sight, because of light being diffracted by the earth's
atmosphere and mass.  Would you consider that he saw the real Aleutian
Islands, or would you merely consider these to be optical aleutians?

--
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Corrupt Xref line!!  2197 --> sci.phys.skateboarding(1..0)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!summa.tamu.edu!dbn7350
From: [e-mail] (NASH, DAVID BENNETT III)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Polar shift and Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 21:00:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 29
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, system@spectrx writes...
>Does anyone know if the coming of the aliens(Talked about on this newsgroup)
>that are supposed to come like around 1996, have anything to do with the
>shift of the poles of the earth(supposed to happen in 2000).  If there was a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


i have not heard of this, could you(or anyone else) please post
where you read of this?


>large asteroid that came into orbit around Earth(more talk from a.a.vis),
>would that be of enough mass to help change the poles of the earth? I guess
>it would depend on size and composure of the asteriod, but would it be
>possible?
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Aaron Anderer, System Operator                [e-mail]
>SPECTROX SYSTEMS [phone]              szebra!spectrx!system
>"Guess who's coming to dinner" -Chekov Star Trek VI

dbn3.

bauhaus.ministry.thrillkillkult.front242.siouxsie&banshees.nin.chris&cosey.meat
beatmanifesto.nitzerebb.severedheads.skinnypuppy.808state.cure.rush.cult.etc...
------------------------------------
Internet: [e-mail]   |
Bitnet: dbn7350@tamvenus           |         insert your own dumb quote. . .
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!summa.tamu.edu!dbn7350
From: [e-mail] (NASH, DAVID BENNETT III)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 21:10:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 26
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Steve Timpson) writes...
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>        >news. I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from
>        > Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien
>
>        Well You have  just shown that you are full of crap.  the Galileo
>        mission is a mission  to Jupiter and not venus and is not equiped
>        to do more that photograph venus.
>
>        Nice try now go back to sleep.
>
>        Steve


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Galileo couldn't transmit radar images anyway, the high gain antenna is down.

dbn3.

bauhaus.ministry.thrillkillkult.front242.siouxsie&banshees.nin.chris&cosey.meat
beatmanifesto.nitzerebb.severedheads.skinnypuppy.808state.cure.rush.cult.etc...
------------------------------------
Internet: [e-mail]   |
Bitnet: dbn7350@tamvenus           |         insert your own dumb quote. . .
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!peterpan!ivory
From: [e-mail] (John Ivory)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Something Heading this way.
Keywords: twits
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 22:48:45 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Lines: 15


I'm a late joiner to this thread.  I've developed a fascination for
religous fanatics/extremists over the past few years (my sister is one)
and long ago discovered that they are completely impossible to interact
with; such conversations go nowhere.  It's like spitting into the wind.

Our local news site does not contain the original set of postings on this
thread.  Could some kind soul please e-mail whatever they have to the below
address?  Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------- \ \ \
                                                           John E. Ivory   \ \
                                                  [e-mail]    \ \
                                              [e-mail]     \
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- \
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uchinews!ellis!thf2
From: [e-mail] (Ted Frank)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 22:22:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx alt.religion.kibology:291 sci.skeptic:18404 alt.alien.visitors:3508 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:254

[e-mail] (Phil OKunewick) writes:
>[e-mail] (Stephen Andrew Rahe) writes:
>>In article  <[e-mail]>  [e-mail] (Andy Wardley) writes:
>>> Remember that we used to say that the Earth was flat,
>>> man could never fly, and that no one could travel faster than the speed
>>> of sound...
>>    Actually, sailors always knew that the Earth was spherical, since the
>>masts of ships appeared first on the horizon...
>
>    Suppose that instead of visiting the Carribean Islands, Columbus
>sailed through the Panama Canal

Wouldn't he need time travel first?


--
Ted Frank       + "My mother-in-law broke up my marriage.  My wife comes home
1307 E60th St.  +  and finds me in bed with my mother-in-law." -- Lenny Bruce
Chi, IL 60637   + "What good is having money if you can't inspire terror
[phone]   +  in your fellow man?"                   -- Montgomery Burns
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!anachem
From: [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Polar shift and Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 22:55:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Indiana University
Lines: 44

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (NASH, DAVID BENNETT III) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, system@spectrx writes...
>>shift of the poles of the earth(supposed to happen in 2000).  If there was a
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>i have not heard of this, could you(or anyone else) please post
>where you read of this?
>

    I post this for info purposes only: I do not have any reason to
    believe what I am posting, or for that matter to disbelieve.
    I am merely reporting what I know - don't be jerks this time.

    In the mid sixties, my father and I went to a Kansas City UFO
    Club meeting. The speaker was from Big Rock Arizona ?? I think.

    He had designed some walk-thru buildings that used magnetism to
    rejuvenate humans - he learned this technology "from UFO
    occupants". He also gave a few lessons in how to see, contact
    or otherwise experience a UFO encounter. Basically he taught a
    simple mediumistic invocation. Predictable results from learned
    technique.

    Also he told of the well-known phenomenon of a steel needle
    floating on mercury in a beaker rotating on a turntable, with
    and without a surrounding magnetic field. In the presence of
    a magnetic field the mercury will rotate with the beaker/turn-
    table -as evidenced by the steel needle going around. In the
    absence of a magnetic field the mercury is no longer coupled
    to the rotating container.

    He said that the earth is the same way. The crust is coupled to
    the semi-liquid underlying layers only because of the presence
    of the magnetic field (emanating from the core). If there is
    sufficient disruption of the earth's magnetic field, then he
    said that, the crust can shift relative to the core (I don't
    know what would drive such a shift - an asteroid impact?)  and
    there is "a terrible cataclysm" with the waters of the seas
    flowing up and over the land - ala the Great Flood. The record
    of the magnetic field polarity shifts in the ferrous minerals
    show that such shifts occur. He says this is the mechanism.

    Why such an event would be predictable to a specific year is
    beyond me. If such happens at all is beyond me. It is
    interesting I hope.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!infonode!case
From: [e-mail] (Bill Case)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 23:15:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Lines: 44
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3510 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:255

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> >Okay, time travel is being debated,

The problem is that the mass increases as you approach Speed-o-light, and
the energy expenditure to go faster goes asyntotic as you approach light
speed.  Therefore,  the person who was going to run down the train as the
train was a hair away from Speed-o-light would need almost infinite energy
just to lift their little toe for step number 1.


> but what about teleportation?  Is this stil a theory?
>

A theory I haven't seen mentioned, (unless by another name) is Bell's
Theorum which purports to prove that all matter is linked in some
way with an instantaeous communication path.  This grew out of an
attempt by Einstein to prove that quantum theory must be flawed.  It was
a thought experiment that was related to the spin of mirrored pairs
subatomic particles as they moved away from each other.  Quantum theory seems
to have held up,  which impies that mass cannot move faster than light, but
information can,  in a way which goes beyond "move".  Kinda spooky.

> In the psychic field there are rare reports of bilocation (being visible in
> two places at once) and teleportation, but the evidence is only anecdotal.

If you read "Autobiography of a Yogi",  this is happening three times a day :-)

>
> In the physics field, the evidence is also only anecdotal and concerns the
> Navy accidentally teleporting a ship while trying to make it invisible.

:-)


Bill Case

  "What a strange illusion it is to believe that beauty is goodness"

                    Leo Tolstoy

...uunet!ingr!b11!casey!case    (UUCP)
ingr!b11!casey![e-mail] (ARPANET)
[e-mail]                (Internet)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <1991Dec9.153946.2120@anasaz>
Date: 9 Dec 91 15:39:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]>
]>  Dear all,
]>       I have undergone much soul-searching and agonising about this,
]>       but I feel I must be true to myself and give everyone the full
]>       news. I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from
]>       Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien
]>       civilisation on Venus. NASA have supressed the news but I feel it
]>       is my duty to make the full facts known.
]>
]>       I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened
]>       and I really don't know what to do.
]>       Please, does anybody know what to do?
]>
]>      A.COLLARD      [e-mail]
]>
NASA is the bad guy all the way over in the UK too?  They don't intimidate us
over here, they just outwit us.  For example, they told us GALILEO was going
to Jupiter and we all believed them.  Now we know the truth.  Thank you.
BTW, what do you hear from Magellian (
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!homer.cs.mcgill.ca!supermo
From: [e-mail] (Muhanned AL-NUAIMY)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 20:09:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Netnews Administrator)
Organization: SOCS, McGill University, Montreal, Canada
Lines: 36
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:263 sci.physics:15311 sci.skeptic:18406 alt.alien.visitors:3512 alt.config:5472

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles R. Tenney) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gene Miller) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes:
>>>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.
>>
>>    Answer: Only forward, and only by waiting.
>
>Actually, I remember hearing that some serious theoretical physicist (I
>seem to remember an association with Wheeler, but could be wrong) had
>actually worked out a scenario for time-reversal in the presence of a very
>large rotating mass.  The math was done for an infinitely long cylinder of
>extremely high density.  This caused a bit of speculation about whether it
>was something that could show up in the vicinity of a pulsar.
>

 Well, I have a hard time accepting any method that calls for infinite
 mass as anything other than moronic theorising. INFINITE MASS is the
 mass of the entire universe an infinite times over. You don't find mass
 like that lying around in dumpsters. Not even quasars have infinite
 mass. There are time dilation effects in the vicinity of large masses
 but these are rate of change effects only in magnitude, it never quite
 gets to sign. The trouble is that to stop time you need infinite mass,
 but to make it go backwards you need multiples of infinite mass and
 thats were its no longer a theory worth considering without popping
 that real funky looking blotter you picked up at the dead concert last
 summer but haven't taken yet because you haven't come down off the back
 to back flashbacks that started you off thinking about infinite mass in
 the first place.

 supermo

===============================================================================
! Muhanned Al-Nuaimy                   ! Tel.:[phone]                  !
! [e-mail]           ! Addr.:4058 Clark,Montreal,PQ,H2W 1W9 !
!                                   Insert witty saying.....                  !
===============================================================================
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!emory!athena.cs.uga.edu!castor!zaidin
From: [e-mail] (Time Traveler)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 02:09:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>  Dear all,
>       I have undergone much soul-searching and agonising about this,
>       but I feel I must be true to myself and give everyone the full
>       news. I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from
>       Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien
>       civilisation on Venus. NASA have supressed the news but I feel it
>       is my duty to make the full facts known.
>
>       I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened
>       and I really don't know what to do.
>       Please, does anybody know what to do?
>
>      A.COLLARD      [e-mail]
>
>

What is this? Teasin' & pleasin'..!?
If you're frightened, you shouldn't post this article in the first place.
If you want to let anybody know something that s/he doesn't know, just
spit it out. We all would like to hear the full story rather than a halfway
story.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Something Huge!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 03:45:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Clark Matthews) writes:
>
>Well, I think that Klass's job is twofold:
>
>1. Publically "explaining" anything and everything offered as proof of UFO existence regardless of the facts, and
>
>2. Evaluating, discrediting, and informing his bosses about anyone who may possess such proof (or apparently genuine US gov't UFO research, records, COMINT, or just interesting ideas)
>
>So I'm prepared to settle for a "bird" in the hand and a sock in Phil's mouth (and a tap on my phone).
>


My, my, how convenient. Anyone who looks at the same so-called "evidence" as
you do, and fails to be convinced, *must* be in the pay of the CIA or
whoever, sneaking around, spying, informing, lying: all part of the
"great conspiracy" of the [illuminati, CIA, Skull & Bones, Vatican, (or
add your favorite)].

If Phil Klass were the paid agent of sinister forces, why would he continue
to *waste* his time writing long articles in Aviation Week most every
issue, long past the normal retirement age of 65?? Why wouldn't he spend
all his time debunking UFOs?

Or could it be that Klass, like the rest of us, does this in his spare
time, and that his skepticism is just a mark of a better sense of reality?
No, not possible. He *must* be an agent of The Conspiracy!

--

  Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

  Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I Do Not speak,

  Author of *utterly offensive* books!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!oderberg
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hidden Aliens???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 12:18:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 38

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nancy Bulinski) writes:
>>>Someone told me alittle of a bizzare story of alien bodies
>>>being hidden by government authorities at some military
>>>installation out west YEARS ago... maybe 50 years?
>>>
> I don't mean to sound like someone who's jumped off the deep end of skepticism
> here or anything, but I've lived in Dayton, Ohio for 18 years of my natural
> life, and after seeing all the evidence that has been put forth over the
> years, I have to tell you...
>
> I'd lay even money on there being Alien bodies at Wright Patterson Air Force
> Base.
>
> I've met too many people from too many different points that claim to have
> information about them (some of whom are DEFINITELY not the types to curry
> scandal about the town) and I STILL believe that there's a LOT more going
> on at Wright Pat than ANYONE believes.
>
> For one thing, I've seen the overhead maps of the base area, and there's a
> LOT of area that gets hidden by the landscape.  I think the facility is still
> just as active a research facility as it ever was, and that the military is
> trying to make it look like it's being "phased out".
>
> All speculation...but hey, you gotta speculate sometime, right?
>
> -Dave, the "what's WRONG with a 10 line .signature file" kinda guy!


As I said in a previous posting, I would recommend Tim Good's Above
Top Secret for the best recent work on the Roswell affair et al., not
least since he employs the other books on the subject and supplies his
own original research. You own opinion of what goes on at Wright Patt.
AFB is interesting; is it possible for you to be more explicit about
some of what you've experienced there? What is security like at that
place at the moment?
DSO.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!ieee.org!dorm.rutgers.edu!rutgers!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Hidden Aliens???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 18:31:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini) writes:
>
>I'd lay even money on there being Alien bodies at Wright Patterson Air Force
>Base.
>
>I've met too many people from too many different points that claim to have
>information about them (some of whom are DEFINITELY not the types to curry
>scandal about the town) and I STILL believe that there's a LOT more going
>on at Wright Pat than ANYONE believes.

Even Barry Goldwater says he wasn't allowed to see certain areas!  However,
I have a captured thread from Fidonet in which someone says that if they're
there, which he doubts, they're not in Hangar 18.  (However, other sources
refer to something called the Blue Room.)  And it's possible that the
officials got tired of all the publicity and moved them elsewhere.  Jackie
Gleason allegedly told one of his wives that there were alien bodies at
Homestead AFB in Florida about 1972.  Of course, if there was more than one
crash there could be more than one storage location.  I can't remember
right now, did anyone ever establish where the Kecksburg object was taken?
Wright-Patterson would've been convenient.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!netcomsv!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 07:15:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 34
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3517 alt.conspiracy:9253 sci.skeptic:18412

Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Dinse) writes:
>>...  I have seen Venus many times.  It appears to me as almost white,
>>maybe slightly yellowish very bright, larger than a star, and it has never
>>turned red, green, blinked, or come visibly closer to me...
>
>Take a look at it when it's just rising or setting.  Although planets
>shine with a steady light, they can scintillate just like point sources
>if observed through a fair amount of convection.
>--
>              [e-mail]

In the last few issues of Philip J. Klass' "Skeptics UFO Newsletter (SUN)",
there has been discussion of the "red light UFOs' being reported by
numerous persons in the Gulf Breeze area. In brief, it is apparent that
some hoaxer has been sending aloft road flares attached to a balloon.
The color, duration, and behavior of these red lights match exactly what
would be expected from a suspended balloon. Just recently, Dr. Bruce
Maccabee of MUFON, one of the staunchest supporters of the sightings and
photos by Ed Walters in Gulf Breeze, conceded to Klass that in several
recent instances, ground-based observers were able to see both the
flare, AND the balloon from which it is suspended.

"SUN" is available for $15/year from Philip J. Klass, 404 "N" St. S.W.,
Washington, DC 20024 USA.


--

  Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

  Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I Do Not speak,

  Author of *utterly offensive* books!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!dusty
From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: SOMETHING HUGE!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 04:00:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Abode Computer Services
Lines: 12



The UFO Convetion in VEGAS has started today, so there is NO NEWS YET.

I did hear that the FBI was looking for the person who was to appear.  I
heard this news on the net and was able to confirm it with the same
person who told me the story ioriginally.  I don't yet know any more.

Will keep you posted.

--Dusty
in L.A.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Krill File
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 13:24:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
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 >         It was written by either Cooper or Lear. Some of it concurs,
 > other
 >         parts are patheticly ridiculous.

It was written by John Grace, aka Val Valerian, a close cohort of John Lear's.
He also wrote the Matrix, a compilation of space junk.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psgrain!onion!pail!bucket!ralex
From: [e-mail] (Randy Alexander)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <ralex.692355834@bucket>
Date: 10 Dec 91 09:03:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News)
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Nntp-Posting-Host: bucket.rain.com

[e-mail] writes:


>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>>       I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened
>>       and I really don't know what to do.
>>       Please, does anybody know what to do?
>>
>>      A.COLLARD      [e-mail]

>Don't worry so much.  Venus isn't the only planet that contains such
>artifacts... I think information will turn up about other planets as well.
>You're lucky to be a part of it.

>Relax and enjoy the show. :-)


Just out of curiosity, where did you obtain that information? I have info
that there are such artifacts on Mars, mostly underground and on a few
moons. (Don't remember which at the moment, I'd have to dig out my notes..)

Randy
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!mel.dit.csiro.au!mineng.dmpe.CSIRO.AU!dmssyd.syd.dms.CSIRO.AU!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 06:14:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Dec5.151720.17404@anasaz>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 36

In article <1991Dec5.151720.17404@anasaz>, billy@anasaz
           (Bill Moore) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>
             [e-mail] writes:
> ]>I think that they are mistaken... we Americans (regardless of most of our
> ]>psychological bents) are not likely to worship anything or anyone that
> ]>appeared in wonders from the sky.   Tradition holds that we tend to shoot
> ]>first and ask questions later.... but we've managed to develop a bit more
> ]>self control these days.
>
> What tradition holds that we
> shoot first and ask questions later?  Americans are known for excercising
> incredible restraint. When/where did we ever "shoot first and ask questions
> later?"  Americans are the good guys.

 Billy you forgot the smiley.

 Also you forgot a war of independence, a bloody civil war, many regional wars,
 two world wars, the Korean and Vietnam wars, etc. etc. The only country to nuke
 another in history, a world bully, and the most violent society on earth
 ( check the deaths by violence per head of population). You have the death
 penalty, no gun laws, enormous drug problems, history of the `wild' west, etc.
 as well as a pastime called Presidential Assassination, the mafia, the CIA,

 Some tradition.

> That's why, when they come, they'll come here first.
>

 To destroy their only danger, perhaps? Please get them before they get us ;-)


 By the way what's this I read about the senior defence staff of the USA hiding
 the fact that the Japanese were about to attack Pearl harbour in 1941 so that
 America would have an excuse to enter the WWII (albeit 2 years after it began)?
 It cost 2000 lives, I believe.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!hubcap!opusc!usceast!patterso
From: [e-mail] (Mitchell Patterson)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 00:16:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Ted Frank) writes:

>>    Suppose that instead of visiting the Carribean Islands, Columbus
>>sailed through the Panama Canal

>Wouldn't he need time travel first?

Nope, just a shovel and lot of spare time.

MLP
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          "You are all pawns, mere prisoners of my flatulence."
       from _Tales of Dr. Methane_, issue #5: ``The Palsied Minstrel''
Mitch Patterson - eXpert eXplorer project - [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 13:32:04 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
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In article <1991Dec9.153946.2120@anasaz>, billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]]>
]]>  Dear all,
]]>       I have undergone much soul-searching and agonising about this,
]]>       but I feel I must be true to myself and give everyone the full
]]>       news. I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from
]]>       Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien
]]>       civilisation on Venus. NASA have supressed the news but I feel it
]]>       is my duty to make the full facts known.
]]>
]]>       I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened
]]>       and I really don't know what to do.
]]>       Please, does anybody know what to do?
]]>
]]>      A.COLLARD      [e-mail]
]]>
>NASA is the bad guy all the way over in the UK too?  They don't intimidate us
>over here, they just outwit us.  For example, they told us GALILEO was going
>to Jupiter and we all believed them.  Now we know the truth.  Thank you.
>BTW, what do you hear from Magellian (


        A.   Collard, Looks like you found a sucker.  Congratulations you
        are the proud owner of a rumor that is pure BS.  Hey did you hear
        the one about the grave yard on the moon?

        Steve food_for_the_greys
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 13:36:19 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Time Traveler) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]>
]>  Dear all,
]>       I have undergone much soul-searching and agonising about this,
]>       but I feel I must be true to myself and give everyone the full
]>       news. I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from
]>       Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien
]>       civilisation on Venus. NASA have supressed the news but I feel it
]>       is my duty to make the full facts known.
]>
]>       I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened
]>       and I really don't know what to do.
]>       Please, does anybody know what to do?
]>
]>      A.COLLARD      [e-mail]
]>
]>
>
>What is this? Teasin' & pleasin'..!?
>If you're frightened, you shouldn't post this article in the first place.
>If you want to let anybody know something that s/he doesn't know, just
>spit it out. We all would like to hear the full story rather than a halfway
>story.
        Whoa!   this  gets better every posting.  Now you have two on the
        hook.  Congratulations  you have a full blown religion developing
        here.  You three  ought  to meet in Arizona in one of those power
        zone/places.

        Steve food_for_the_greys
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de!efes.physik.uni-kl.de!kring
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 16:12:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
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In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Bill Case) writes:
>The problem is that the mass increases as you approach Speed-o-light, and
>the energy expenditure to go faster goes asyntotic as you approach light
>speed.  Therefore,  the person who was going to run down the train as the
>train was a hair away from Speed-o-light would need almost infinite energy
>just to lift their little toe for step number 1.

No. Because of the relativity principle, the passenger does not feel,
see, or measure any difference to anyone acting the same way in a
standing train, unless looking out of the window.
But an observer at rest wrt the earth will see that the train moves
with velocity 0.999999995 c and the passenger moves with a slightly
larger speed, 0,999999998 c, even if the (velocity of the train wrt
the earth) + (velocity of passenger wrt the train) is greater than c.
This is because the velocities are not simply added, but the Lorentz
transformation is used.

>A theory I haven't seen mentioned, (unless by another name) is Bell's
>Theorum which purports to prove that all matter is linked in some
>way with an instantaeous communication path.  This grew out of an
>attempt by Einstein to prove that quantum theory must be flawed.  It was
>a thought experiment that was related to the spin of mirrored pairs
>subatomic particles as they moved away from each other.  Quantum theory seems
>to have held up,  which impies that mass cannot move faster than light, but
>information can,  in a way which goes beyond "move".  Kinda spooky.

No. Bell's Theorem states that there are no local hidden parameters.
'Hidden parameters' (HPs) means that a particle carries some information
that one cannot extract directly but that has influence on other,
measurable things.  If there are HPs, some strange quantum-mechanical
interpretations can be avoided.  QM says that a particle's properties
are not definitely settled until one measures those properties.
With HPs, one can say that they *are* settled, determined by the HPs.

Now Bell's Theorem says that HPs are impossible, at least locally.
But it does not forbid the possibility that there are *global* HPs,
which would have consequences like the ones you describe.
So Bell didn't *prove* that 'all matter is linked...with an instantaeous
communication path' but only *failed to disprove* it.

(One more example that one should not believe everyone claiming
'this has been proven'.  In many cases it is just a rumor based on a
misunderstanding.)

The 'attempt by Einstein to prove that quantum theory must be flawed'
seems to be the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradoxon (EPR), a thought
experiment showing an absurd consequence of a QM without HPs.
But actually making the experiment shows that QM is probably right,
because the absurd consequences indeed happen.
Information does *not* move faster than light, though, as somebody
in sci.skeptic pointed out some months ago.  Using the EPR experiment,
it is impossible to transfer information.

-Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-
------------(thomas kettenring, kaiserslautern, germany)-----------
--The human mind is too complex to understand for the human mind,--
--or, in other words, the human mind is too simple to understand---
--------------------------the human mind.--------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!mojo.eng.umd.edu!mimsy!prometheus!pmk
From: [e-mail] (Paul M. Koloc)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 08:30:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul M. Koloc)
Organization: Prometheus II, Ltd.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:
>[e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes:

>> All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.

>Yes.

>Not only is it possible to travel in time, it is impossible not to
>travel in time.  However, your velocity along the time axis is pretty
>much fixed.  (ignoring relativistic effects).

Pretty much but not entirely.  For example, one of the plates of
the capacitor in an oscillating LC circuit alternates in voltage
as a paucity and then excess of electrons population fluxuates in
synch with the circuit's electrical rhythym.  In our quantized
universe (including quantized time) the electrons existence phase
is in the second half of the current quantum time frame, while
that of the positive charge is in the first half.  Ordinary
uncharged matter has perfectly balance existence across the present
time frame; but remember charged matter doesn't.

For example, if the capacitor plate is negatively charged, it is
a weighted in past time, while a positive charged one (new
information of the next time frame) is weighted in the future.
So as the circuit oscillates, each capacitor plate sloshes a bit
forward and backward in time. -- (Although never outside the current
time frame)  --

A charge's time distribution is the identical to the distribution
or time existence image of the opposite charge as mirrored in the
midline of the current time frame (a sort of delta function
distribution of reality).

     three time frames:

                              +|-  +|-  +|-
                              time axis -->

The meaning of an electric oscillator is that the matter mix
(matter plus or minus charge) is partially oscillating in TIME,
while with a mass ocillator matter oscillates in SPACE.

If one were to launch an object into the future at faster rate than
surrounding matter is moving (normal advancing clock), he would have
to create information in the next time frame before the local matter
did so (excess of time frames - which looks briefly like more matter
is being created) and more continue to do so.  What would happen is
that with more matter being created than annihilated, the object
would appear for an instant to have more creation operators (plus
charges) one or two where before there was neutral matter.  That
would tend to pull the electrons off from nearby non-time-departing
matter and into the time-departing object.   ZAP!  Would the object
get away (in time) before the electrons arrived -- be quick enough???

The proof of this theory is based on the "back to the future effect".

Every time that the time travelers end a trip in the movie they
exhibit lots of crawlly electricity!  and sadly (for the theory's
sake) with sign of X or Gamma ray burns (from those fast electrons.
Man seems to have an uncanny nose for predicting chunks of coming
science in scifi movies and books.                        :-)
--
>Grant Edwards [e-mail]

Enough fun ..  Now back to the fusion burner development.   Really!
COPYWRITE 1991 Paul M. Koloc
+---------------------------------------------------------+**********+
| Paul M. Koloc, President,  Prometheus II, Ltd.          +Commercial*
|                   Bx 222,  College Park, MD 20740-0222  ***FUSION***
| mimsy!prometheus!pmk;      [e-mail]          ***in the***
| [phone]             promethe=prometheus          **Nineties**
+---------------------------------------------------------************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!joelw
From: [e-mail] (Joel Williamson)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 18:36:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
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Nntp-Posting-Host: mozart.convex.com

The original question remains unanswered: Is it possible to travel
backward in time?  Only answers posted before this article is submitted
will be regarded as authentic.

Joel Williamson
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium
Keywords: any books yet?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 19:29:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Distribution: na
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:

>The deep-space photo was taken from the Soviet Phobos II probe before it
>just disapeared. The particular photo he showed on Larry King wasn't even
>released openly to the public; it's my understanding that he had coaxed
>Marina Popovich to allow him to have the photo.

>the details of the photo. Roughly, the long cylindrical object was measured
>at something like 15 km long by 5 km wide..that's pretty hefty!

Deimos has diameters of 16km (longest) 12km (intermediate) and 10km
(shortest) An object as large as 15km x 5km would very likely be
visible from Earth, It would hardly require a probe to see, unless it
were very dark.  In which case, the probe may not have even be able to
see it.

By the way, "Marina Popovich" doesn't appear in the copy of Who's Who
in the Soviet Union, that I looked at.  I would be interested
in her credentials.

--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ihz.compuserve.com!dzecchin
From: [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Hidden Aliens???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 19:41:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini) writes:
>>
>>I'd lay even money on there being Alien bodies at Wright Patterson Air Force
>>Base.
>>
>Even Barry Goldwater says he wasn't allowed to see certain areas!  However,
>I have a captured thread from Fidonet in which someone says that if they're
>there, which he doubts, they're not in Hangar 18.  (However, other sources
>refer to something called the Blue Room.)  And it's possible that the
>officials got tired of all the publicity and moved them elsewhere.  Jackie
>Gleason allegedly told one of his wives that there were alien bodies at
>Homestead AFB in Florida about 1972.  Of course, if there was more than one
>crash there could be more than one storage location.  I can't remember
>right now, did anyone ever establish where the Kecksburg object was taken?
>Wright-Patterson would've been convenient.
>

Well, as for secutiry at the Base, it's not particularly anything of note,
BUT this only counts the areas that you can SEE.  I was immensely shocked
to discover that they had about 5 different runways at Wright-Patterson,
because after 18 years of living there, I had only managed to see 3 from
ANY point on the surrounding area.

I had heard long ago that the bodies weren't located in Hangar 18, but that
they and the remainder of the items recovered from Roswell were actually on
the base.

Consider these two things, First, Wright-Patterson was for a LONG time the
home of a SAC Bomber wing.  Now, I don't know if any of you have been to Dayton
or have seen Wright Patterson, but I can tell you that the landscape does
NOT particularly lend itself well to supporting a large-scale operation that
this would require.  At least not ABOVE GROUND.

I know it seems ludicrous, but I had heard stories from LONG ago that the
majority of the equipment and the storage facilities were all underground.
BUT, considering the lack of space they have to contain all this, I can se it.

Second, Wright-Patterson has been the U.S. Air Force's BENCHMARK location
for research projects.  Every 5 years, they announce the fields that they wil
working on, be they advanced materials science, or propulsion technology.

But the military is CONSTANTLY downplaying it's significance in this regard.

I don't know for sure, but I'd say that a good deal of the money that the
government puts in there goes UNDERGROUND, and as a result, Wright-Patterson
can still come through with the breakthroughs, while keeping a very low
profile.

Well, it's worth a shot, at least...<g>

-Dave, Dave, That CompuServe Kinda Guy...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!rayssd!rayssd!plw
From: [e-mail] (Paul L. White)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO videos
Keywords: videos
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 13:13:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Administrator)
Organization: Raytheon Company, Portsmouth RI
Lines: 31

Well, I can positively unrecommend one video.  This video is advertised
in UFO magazine...quite a large ad as a matter of fact. UFOs ARE REAL THE FILMS
PROVE IT!  So I wanted to see it proved, so I had my local New Age bookstore
order it for me (who knows what kinds of crackpot mailing list infections
I could pick up).

It arrived in short order.

I paid the $40 and took it home.  The beginning of this video is a scene
by the "host" who is wearing a full head mask of a "gray." What follows are
tapes of alleged UFOs that he has taped from the television...and he couldn't
even do that right. The production quality is not even poor, it is abysmal.
To pad the tape, this guy shows each UFO three times (perhaps he never heard
of a VCR REWIND button)...each segment is introduced by a shot of an IBM
color monitor with flashing text and asterisks.

The last segment has Fred Willard visiting this guy at his home (a trailer
in a trailer park somewhere in CA).  This guy is getting his jollies by
sneaking up on the TV host in his alien outfit.  Willard appears to
recognize this guy as someone who's only rowing with one oar.

Okay, I was suckered in by the size of the ad. I figured anyone who could
afford that would have some original footage with an attempt at analysis.

Let the buyer beware.

========================================================================
Paul White
plw@rayssdb                My employer and I rarely
                                 share opinions
========================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Firsthand account
Keywords: seawasp
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 18:07:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Wazmodyne Systems
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Originator: jcj@tellab3
Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3

[e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:

>... I have seen a UFO. ... I happen to be an amateur astronomer myself,
>as well as a technophile, so I KNOW that what I saw was neither any
>atmospheric or astronomical phenomenon, nor any device that could be built
> by any technology *I* have ever heard of.

Ok!  Let's hear the details.  Time, place, weather, number of observers,
duration, description of what you saw flying?  A rational account by a
firsthand observer would be quite refreshing amid all the New Age/Boogieman
/Paranoid/Psychoreligious bullshit that usually flies around here.
--
              [e-mail]
            "What'd you like, Normie?"
         "A reason to live.  Gimme another beer."
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!rutgers!psuvax1!psuvax1!okunewck
From: [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <#[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 20:37:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Joel Williamson) writes:
>The original question remains unanswered: Is it possible to travel
>backward in time?  Only answers posted before this article is submitted
>will be regarded as authentic.

   Theoretically, it's only possible to travel forward in time more
quickly than somebody passing by you.  You're both travelling forward
in time; his watch appears to you to be moving more slowly than yours.
But the difference is imperceptable unless he's moving past you at a
near-lightspeed velocity.

   This would seem to mean that if you went forward time faster than
he did, you could hop onto his back and into the past.  Not quite.  As
he approaches you, you see time slowed down for him.  As he leaves
you, you still see time slowed down.  The problem is, when was time
zero for both of you?  The instant you make the hop, you two will be
in the same reference frame and you'll be hoping from the present into
the present.  Damn.

   I think that's how it works.

   Now, if you want to look into the past, just look anywhere.  Light
takes time to reach your eyes (even at lightspeed), so you can't see
anything until after it happened.  This is significant with stars -
we see what the stars looked like sometime in the past when viewing
them.  A supernova which happened hundreds of thousands of years ago
will be visible (and fun to watch) in our lifetime.

   The bottom line is, you can look into the past but you can't
interact with events that previously happened.

--
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Corrupt Xref line!!  2197 --> sci.phys.skateboarding(1..0)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rphroy!rcsuna.gmr.com!skalwani
From: [e-mail] (Sharan Kalwani CT/90)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: whatever happened to erich von daniken ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 20:57:12 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
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Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: rcsuna.gmr.com

this is my first post, so standard disclaimers apply......

say, whatever happened to erich von daniken (of chariots of the gods
fame)? i read his books a long time ago and saw a documentary on the
cable channel "nostalgia" recently.... hence the curiosity.

sharan kalwani
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!news.ucsd.edu!network.ucsd.edu!ivem!spl
From: [e-mail] (Steve Lamont)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 23:42:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News System)
Followup-To: alt.dev.null
Organization: University of Calif. San Diego Microscopy and Imaging Resource
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Nntp-Posting-Host: ivem.ucsd.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joel Williamson) writes:
>The original question remains unanswered: Is it possible to travel
>backward in time? ...

Only becoming a Republican.

                        spl (the p stands for
                        party politics)
--
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- [phone] -- [e-mail]
UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
"Mrs Noah in the Ark/wove a great nightgown in the dark,/did Mrs Noah..."
                       - Robert Duncan, "The Ballad of Mrs Noah"
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From: [e-mail] (Rick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 23:08:58 GMT
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[e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) writes:

>Information does *not* move faster than light, though, as somebody
>in sci.skeptic pointed out some months ago.  Using the EPR experiment,
>it is impossible to transfer information.

I missed the thread in sci.skeptic, but I have a question about information
transfer.  Assume I have a rod, 1 light year long, made of an an *extremely*
rigid material (hey, this is hypothetical, let's say infinitely rigid).
My friend is in a p-suit at one end, I'm at the other.  I push very hard
on one end (OK, inertia, etc - let's say infinitely rigid, non-compressible,
almost massless).  This push represents a bit of information.  If the rod
is non-copressible, etc, this bit arrives at the other end of the rod at
the same time as I transmit it.  But, of course, that would be sending
information faster than c.  Despite the magic material that the rod is
made from, does it compress (dilate, whatever) to transfer the bit at
speed c?

Yours in wonderment,
Rick.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Hidden Aliens???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 00:38:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Tasmania
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In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Dave Zecchini) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Dave Zecchini) writes:
>>>
>>>I'd lay even money on there being Alien bodies at Wright Patterson Air Force
>>>Base.

Has anybody considered that bodies, alien or otherwise, that have been
sitting in some military base since 1947 might just have decomposed
after 44 years?

=== CAPTAIN MARVEL JONES ===

"The thing about terrorists is - they're very sociable" - Max Headroom.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!spool.mu.edu!samsung!transfer!lectroid!sw.stratus.com!tarl
From: [e-mail] (Tarl Neustaedter)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 01:59:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rick) writes:
> [hypothetical infinitley incompressible massless rod]
>
> Despite the magic material that the rod is
> made from, does it compress (dilate, whatever) to transfer the bit at
> speed c?

Yes. Consider the case of a long iron rod; You whack it at one end with
a sledgehammer, and the whole rod jumps. Because iron is neither massless
nor incompressible, the remote end doesn't jump until the shockwave has
had time to move through the rod to the other end - at the speed of sound.
--
         Tarl Neustaedter    [e-mail]
         Marlboro, Mass.    Stratus Computer
Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!atmadc
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Summary: RE: LIFE ON VENUS - Disclaimer
Keywords: VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 11:03:01 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 28

>   Dear all,
>       I have undergone much soul-searching and agonising about this,
>       but I feel I must be true to myself and give everyone the full
>       news. I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from
>       Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien
>       civilisation on Venus. NASA have supressed the news but I feel it
>       is my duty to make the full facts known.
>
>       I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened
>       and I really don't know what to do.
>       Please, does anybody know what to do?
>
>      A.COLLARD      [e-mail]
>
   I am afriad we have all been the subjects of a cruel practical joke.  I do
indeed work on Venus data, but unfortunately it is such that planet wide
terraforming might well go unnoticed!  The message was sent out by a certain
Manoj Joshi (e-mail [e-mail]) who got into my account without my
knowledge.
  I personally believe that you are all doing the world a great service by not
closing your minds to these possibilities (of alien visitors) that are all to
obvious to those who do not have such narrow minds as our Mr. Joshi.  I am
sorry I cannot give you any further evidence (and no the MIBs haven't visited
me!) for your claims.
  Please accept my apologies and direct any complaints to Mr. Joshi,
                        Yours,
                                Andrew.

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 23:56:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Dec9.153946.2120@anasaz>
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 38

In article <1991Dec9.153946.2120@anasaz>, billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> ]>
> ]>  Dear all,
> ]>       I have undergone much soul-searching and agonising about this,
> ]>       but I feel I must be true to myself and give everyone the full
> ]>       news. I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from
> ]>       Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien
> ]>       civilisation on Venus. NASA have supressed the news but I feel it
> ]>       is my duty to make the full facts known.
> ]>
> ]>       I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened
> ]>       and I really don't know what to do.
> ]>       Please, does anybody know what to do?
> ]>
> ]>      A.COLLARD      [e-mail]
> ]>
> NASA is the bad guy all the way over in the UK too?  They don't intimidate us
> over here, they just outwit us.  For example, they told us GALILEO was going
> to Jupiter and we all believed them.  Now we know the truth.  Thank you.
> BTW, what do you hear from Magellian (
> --
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>      Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Well, I've already posted my disclaimer, but I'd better put the record straight
for all you ignorant people out there.  The Galileo spaceprobe is indeed going
to Jupiter, but its trajectory takes it via Venus and the Earth (twice) in
order to gain the energy to get to its final target (a move known as the Venus
Earth Earth Gravity Assist or VEEGA).  The Venus encounter has been described
in the 27th September edition of Science in case any of the "experts" out there
want to argue.
    Also, there is no radar on Galileo (that is Magellan) and the antenna
is still not open (at least that fact as right)

A.C.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!qolight
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <422800011@peg>
Date: 11 Dec 91 01:06:00 GMT
References: <1499995964@[e-mail].>
Lines: 4
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail].:1499995964:peg:422800011:000:146
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!qolight    Dec 10 21:06:00 1991


Well, so much for the physical state of reality....Now go Meta...
& pls report what you find while traveling the Void..Regards &
HappySailing....
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium
Keywords: any books yet?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 03:49:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Anthony J Stieber) writes:
>
>By the way, "Marina Popovich" doesn't appear in the copy of Who's Who
>in the Soviet Union, that I looked at.  I would be interested
>in her credentials.
>
>--
She *is* the ex-wife of Cosmonaut Pavel Popovich, and she does still
live in "Cosmonaut housing" or whatever. But that doesn't mean that
she isn't "out on a limb". She was a good friend of the late Felix Ziegel,
the Wild Man of Soviet UFOlogy, and she is now following in his
footsteps.


--

  Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

  Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I Do Not speak,

  Author of *utterly offensive* books!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!cebarton
From: [e-mail] (Casey Barton)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 03:48:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 21

Steve Timpson writes:
>Bill Moore writes...
>>A. Collard writes:
>>> [article about life on Venus deleted]
>>>
>>NASA is the bad guy all the way over in the UK too?  They don't intimidate us
>>over here, they just outwit us.  For example, they told us GALILEO was going
>>to Jupiter and we all believed them.  Now we know the truth.  Thank you.
>>BTW, what do you hear from Magellian (
>
>        A.   Collard, Looks like you found a sucker.  Congratulations you
>        are the proud owner of a rumor that is pure BS.  Hey did you hear
>        the one about the grave yard on the moon?

    Rather, it looks like Bill Moore has found someone who couldn't recognize
satire if it bit him.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Casey Barton (Mr.)   [e-mail]   [phone]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Stay tuned...We'll be right back after these important messages...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!lambert.waterloo.edu!l2wang
From: [e-mail] (  Lei Wang  )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 03:51:34 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rick) writes:
> [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
>
> I missed the thread in sci.skeptic, but I have a question about information
> transfer.  Assume I have a rod, 1 light year long, made of an an *extremely*
> rigid material (hey, this is hypothetical, let's say infinitely rigid).
> My friend is in a p-suit at one end, I'm at the other.  I push very hard
> on one end (OK, inertia, etc - let's say infinitely rigid, non-compressible,
> almost massless).  This push represents a bit of information.  If the rod
> is non-copressible, etc, this bit arrives at the other end of the rod at
> the same time as I transmit it.  But, of course, that would be sending
> information faster than c.  Despite the magic material that the rod is
> made from, does it compress (dilate, whatever) to transfer the bit at
> speed c?
>

  There is no such magic material.  Force travels along the rod at the
rate that any vibrations would travel through it.  If the rod was made
of air, 340 m/s: sound.  If the rod was made of water, ~5000 m/s, etc al.
  The error was in the original assumption that there exists a complete
rigid material.
  It compresses, always at a slower rate than c.

--
_
 \  The Lavendeer    [e-mail]         Let's Be Friends.
  >xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 /                        To achieve the Impossible, one must think the absurd;
/  to look where everone else has looked, but to see what no one else has seen.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!psuvm!tan102
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 04:19:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joel Williamson)
says:
>
>The original question remains unanswered: Is it possible to travel
>backward in time?  Only answers posted before this article is submitted
>will be regarded as authentic.
>
>Joel Williamson

The origional goof remained in that post.  It IS possible to edit the
newsgroups line of an article when you're posting it, whether or not it
is possible to travel in time.  alt.config should have been removed from
this discussion LONG ago.

The truly authentic article would be by someone who went back and told
the origional instigator this before he put up the origional post on this
thread.  Of course, no one would then know about the problem, so anyone
who was told about this would consider it a fake.
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From: [e-mail] (Casey Barton)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 04:29:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 22

Tarl Neustaedter writes:
>Rick writes:
>> [hypothetical infinitley incompressible massless rod]
>>
>> Despite the magic material that the rod is
>> made from, does it compress (dilate, whatever) to transfer the bit at
>> speed c?
>
>Yes. Consider the case of a long iron rod; You whack it at one end with
>a sledgehammer, and the whole rod jumps. Because iron is neither massless
>nor incompressible, the remote end doesn't jump until the shockwave has
>had time to move through the rod to the other end - at the speed of sound.

    The thing to remember, though, is that the speed of sound in steel is
faster than that in air. The speed of sound in a medium is proportional to
the density of the medium. The question is, then: As the density approaches
infinity, does the speed of sound approach infinity or c?
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Casey Barton (Mr.)   [e-mail]   [phone]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Stay tuned...We'll be right back after these important messages...
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!surya!cgross
From: [e-mail] (Christian Gross)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <cgross.692428713@surya>
Date: 11 Dec 91 05:18:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: University of Waterloo
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rick) writes:
>> [hypothetical infinitley incompressible massless rod]
>>
>> Despite the magic material that the rod is
>> made from, does it compress (dilate, whatever) to transfer the bit at
>> speed c?

>Yes. Consider the case of a long iron rod; You whack it at one end with
>a sledgehammer, and the whole rod jumps. Because iron is neither massless
>nor incompressible, the remote end doesn't jump until the shockwave has
>had time to move through the rod to the other end - at the speed of sound.
>--
yes that is right for a piece of steel, but lets talk purely from a
philosophical point of view.  Imagine a material or medium that possesses
this magic property or ultimate incompressiblity.  What would be the speed
of the transmission?  I mean why is the speed of light the ultimate speed
Okay I am stepping on you Eintstein, etc dudes, but lets look at from
a point of view that things are not directly physical...
I mean why is it impossible that this rod could not exist....
A bit to flaky, eh, but then thats democracy and open debate.

                Chris
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!nevada.edu!jimi2!otto!joe
From: [e-mail] (Joe Barger)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 02:35:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joe Barger)
Organization: Las Vegas Sun
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stein Kulseth FBA) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Terenas S D M) asks:
>|> All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.
>
>Yes it is possible, in fact, we all do it - every hour of the day
>
>
>
>+------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
>| Stein Kulseth                |  [e-mail]  |

    If you get on a ship and travel at the speed of light you
    stop time. If you double the speed of light time goes backward?
    good luck. sounds fun though.
--
*******************************************************************************
     Joe Barger ([e-mail] {psivax,jimi, mirror}!otto!joe)
 The odds get even You name the game The odds get even The stakes are the same
            You bet your LIFE!   RUSH
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From: [e-mail] (Andreas Gunnarsson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 02:52:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, G|teborg, Sweden
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bill Case) writes:
>The problem is that the mass increases as you approach Speed-o-light, and
>the energy expenditure to go faster goes asyntotic as you approach light
>speed.  Therefore,  the person who was going to run down the train as the
>train was a hair away from Speed-o-light would need almost infinite energy
>just to lift their little toe for step number 1.
>

No, there is no such thing as absolute speed. Therefore the person in the
train can run as fast relative to the train as he can run relative to the
ground if he wasn't on the train. The person will feel no difference in
his/her weight. An observer outside the train will, however, think that the
person runs very slow relative to the train because of the time dilation, and
also think that his/her mass is increased. The person inside the train will
think that the person outside the train moves very slowly relative to the
outside, and is very heavy too.

If the person on the train tries to measure the speed of light, it is found
to be 299792458 m/s in any direction, the same result as the person
stationary on the ground will get, despite their relative speed.

*** No non-accelerating reference system is any more valid than any other.
--
==============================================================================
73 es 88 de SM7TLS          [e-mail]          Andreas Gunnarsson
         I'm sorry you wasted your time reading this kind of nonsense
Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!ames!agate!stanford.edu!mcnc!samba!tenney
From: [e-mail] (Charles R. Tenney)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 06:36:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
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Nntp-Posting-Host: cahaba.med.unc.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Muhanned AL-NUAIMY) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles R. Tenney) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gene Miller) writes:
>>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes:
>>>>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.
>>>    Answer: Only forward, and only by waiting.
>>
>>Actually, I remember hearing that some serious theoretical physicist (I
>>seem to remember an association with Wheeler, but could be wrong) had
>>actually worked out a scenario for time-reversal in the presence of a very
>>large rotating mass.  The math was done for an infinitely long cylinder of
>>extremely high density.  This caused a bit of speculation about whether it
>>was something that could show up in the vicinity of a pulsar.
>
> Well, I have a hard time accepting any method that calls for infinite
> mass as anything other than moronic theorising.
>    [ranting about infinite mass deleted]

You seem to have a hard time with the way physics is, in its initial
stages, worked out and presented ;-)
The theory never called for infinite mass.  The cylinder was (in the
secondhand description I read) infinitely long only to avoid having to deal
with end effects.  And it may not have had to be all that dense, but it had to
rotate fast enough to get relativistic surface velocities.  Also, it
wasn't Wheeler, it was Tipler.  If you go back or forward through the
thread you can find where someone was kind enough to post the reference.

>There are time dilation effects in the vicinity of large masses
> but these are rate of change effects only in magnitude, it never quite
> gets to sign. The trouble is that to stop time you need infinite mass,
> but to make it go backwards you need multiples of infinite mass and
>
> [ranting but funny attribution of theory to hallucinogens deleted]
> supermo

Like I said, you don't need the infinite mass, just the rotation.
--
Charles R. Tenney    [e-mail]   | What would the UNC of Medicine
                         | want with my opinions? What
    "My karma ran over my dogma."         | would I want with theirs?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!gisle
From: [e-mail] (Gisle Hannemyr)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: whatever happened to erich von daniken ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 07:21:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Gisle Hannemyr)
Organization: [e-mail]
Lines: 17
Nntp-Posting-Host: kyrre.ifi.uio.no
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 10 Dec 91 20: 57:12 GMT
Originator: [e-mail]

He still writes.  At least new books with his "research" come out in
Norway every other year.  But he hasn't got anything new to say, and a lot
of his old stuff has been exposed as fraud (there was an excellent
BBC2 documentary a few years back where they followed up some of
his leads and found very simple explanations for them without invoking
ancient astronauts) -- so I guess he may have problems finding a
publisher for his stuff in the US.
--
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my
            employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary.

- gisle hannemyr  (Norwegian Computing Center)
  EAN:   C=no;PRMD=uninett;O=nr;S=Hannemyr;G=Gisle (X.400 SA format)
         [e-mail]                      (RFC-822  format)
  Inet:  [e-mail]
  UUCP:  ...!mcsun!ifi!gisle
------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.config,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: ALT.CONFIG (was Re: Time Travel - My First Posting)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 08:36:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories
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In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>


    Please take this subject of Time Travel (as interesting as it may be)
out of alt.config, it doesn't belong there. Also, why post to
sci.physics and sci.skeptic, they won't listen to you, just get annoyed.
Alt.sci.physics.new-theories has been newgrouped and up for a number of
days, so let us use that, everyone should have gotten a chance to find
it by now.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!hp4nl!htsa!maxh
From: [e-mail] (Xam the Meganarch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: whatever happened to erich von daniken ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 09:53:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Algemene Hogeschool Amsterdam, Polytechnical Institute, The Netherlands
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Sharan Kalwani CT/90) writes:
>say, whatever happened to erich von daniken (of chariots of the gods
He was abducted by UFOs from beneath the hollow earth...
--
-----------       Rev. M 'Xam the MegAnarch' Hirschfeld        ------------
    -------     Meganarchist Church of Discount Metabogus      -------
         --  (a division of the Church of the Subgenius, Inc)  --
                        [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ihz.compuserve.com!dzecchin
From: [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 11:06:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <cgross.692428713@surya>
Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
Lines: 34


I tell you, all this talk of time travel is making me hungrier than when
I started.  Just a side-effect of Entropy I guess...

One thing that I've noticed most everyone has conspicuously sidestepped is the
that the biggest argument against classical Newtonian physics that is at the
HEART of the big Quantum Mechanics/vs/relativity thing doesn't have the
FOGGIEST to do with time.

It's ALL to do with gravity...

I think a few people have touched on the problem with gravity that's
confusticated everyone since that apple knocked Newton cold (I know, I know,
the apple didn't really HIT Newton...but that's not the POINT!)

Simply put, gravity itself according to Newtonian definition by it's VERY
EXISTENCE defies the laws of event cones, and in essence transmits information
at speeds faster than light.  INFINITELY faster as a matter of fact.  And this
I think is the key to exactly where the idealism of time travel may have a
loophole.

Because we do NOT completely understand how Gravity can have a simultaneous
effect on all object in the universe regardless of the amount of time for
a messenger particle to travel the distance involved, is it not possible that
the concept of a relativistic boundary is lacking a dimension or two?

Perhaps those better schooled in the theories of gravitation should take over
from here, but if ANYONE can actually SHOW me a graviton, I'll truly believe
them when they tell me that I can't go past the speed of light...
--
"Dave, Dave That CompuServe Kinda Guy"  (Not my fault, I JUST work there!)
    [e-mail]  -&-  [e-mail]
    -OR-  [e-mail].
"If it can't be expressed in figures, it's not science; it is opinion."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews
From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: We Are Not Alone
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 06:33:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 25

In a message to All <09 Dec 91 18:18> Dale Wedge wrote:

 DW> From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
 DW> Date: 9 Dec 91 18:11:46 GMT
 DW> Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
 DW> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 DW> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 DW> Yeah, I have it on Video.  It was retitled, We Are Not Alone.  It was
 DW> produced by Emmenger and can be seen late at night on T.V.

Hey, Dale!  Thanks for the info!

I'll check on availability of the *new* title.  If I can't find it, any chance of getting a copy?  Many thanks!

(Feel free to reply on ParaNet, Fido UFO, or here!)

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Hidden Aliens???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 13:40:14 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 15


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
]>>>
]>>>I'd lay even money on there being Alien bodies at Wright Patterson Air Force
]>>>Base.

>Has anybody considered that bodies, alien or otherwise, that have been
>sitting in some military base since 1947 might just have decomposed
>after 44 years?


        Have you ever heard of a device called a freezer or cryogenics?


        Steve food_for_the_greys
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!sjcupps
From: [e-mail] (S J Cupps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 15:20:05 GMT
References: <![e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (S J Cupps)
Organization: Iowa State University
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3557 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:357

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick)
writes:

>     Suppose that instead of visiting the Carribean Islands, Columbus
> sailed through the Panama Canal and headed north toward the Aleutian
> Islands....

* First he would have to travel to the twentieth century.  Then he could get
*through the Panama Canal... if he's not recognized by the PC patrol, that is.
*    =-}      =-]       =-}       =-]     =-}     =-]    =-}    =-]   =-}     *

--

[e-mail]     "Inside my heart is breaking,
                          My makeup may be flaking
                          But my smile still stays on.
  ...fade to black....    The show must go on."
                             -Freddie Mercury | Queen
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cwatters
From: [e-mail] (Coyt D Watters)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 15:51:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3558 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:359
Nntp-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu

If Columbus did travel to our time to make it through the Panama canal, I'd
bet there'd be a lot of groups out to drag him into court for all the
atrocities committed since he "rediscovered" the western hemisphere (not that
it was lost, just no one writing the history books had ever found it.)

--
Coyt D. Watters                              [e-mail]
Oh I like MUMPS, everything's a string.  Oh I like MUMPS, math's done wrong.
Oh I like MUMPS, DATA as CODE as DATA as CODE as... is a lot of fun.
Oh I like MUMPS, passing an indirect variable reference as a parameter is ok.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!sjcupps
From: [e-mail] (SJ Cupps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 15:44:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (S J Cupps)
Organization: Iowa State University
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--

[e-mail]     "Inside my heart is breaking,
        In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Steve Timpson) writes:
>> A. Collard writes,
>>  [...let's see... life on Venus... requests for the full story... fat man
>>     gives birth to an elephant--Ooops, wrong article.]

     Whoa!   this  gets better every posting.  Now you have two on the
>         hook.  Congratulations  you have a full blown religion developing
>         here.  You three  ought  to meet in Arizona in one of those power
>         zone/places.
>
>         Steve food_for_the_greys

*   No, Steve.  Belgium is for UFO's.  ;-}
--
[e-mail]          No offense to those involved.
                            Sometimes lost in obscurity, but don't worry,
  ...fade to black....       I have my towel.

Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!corvette.utdallas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct
From: [e-mail] (Brent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Hidden Aliens???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 16:03:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc.
Lines: 14

[e-mail] writes:
|
|Has anybody considered that bodies, alien or otherwise, that have been
|sitting in some military base since 1947 might just have decomposed
|after 44 years?

Assuming the bodies exist, don't you think that if the gov't was to keep
alien bodies, that it would try to at least preserve them?

-Brent
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent P. Burton, N5VMG                                    Computer Sci/Physics
[e-mail]                                        Texas A&M University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john
From: john@anasaz (John Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <1991Dec10.235255.23085@anasaz>
Date: 10 Dec 91 23:52:55 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA
Lines: 67

Keywords:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]> What tradition holds that we
]> shoot first and ask questions later?  Americans are known for excercising
]> incredible restraint. When/where did we ever "shoot first and ask questions
]> later?"  Americans are the good guys.
]
] Billy you forgot the smiley.
]
] Also you forgot a war of independence, a bloody civil war, many regional wars,
] two world wars, the Korean and Vietnam wars, etc. etc. The only country to nuke
Yes, just like any other major country on earth, we have indeed been
involved in wars. Do you allege that this is unique? By the way, YOUR
country was also involved in the Vietnam War and a number of other wars.

] another in history, a world bully, and the most violent society on earth
                                                   ^--------------tell it to
                            the cambodians
                       ^-----------------hmmm... that must be why we rebuilt
                     germany after we defeated them, eh?
  ^------------------True. Of course, we didn't START the war.

] ( check the deaths by violence per head of population). You have the death
] penalty, no gun laws, enormous drug problems, history of the `wild' west, etc.
                        ^---again, just like Oz
                        ^---------------------this has to do with shooting
                        first?
           ^------------over 20,000 gun laws
  ^------Thank goodness!
] as well as a pastime called Presidential Assassination, the mafia,
                            ^---imported from Sicily
                              ^--------------------------once in 80 years makes
                             it a passtime?
] the CIA,
      ^----no one would ever need an intelligence service, would they?
]
] Some tradition.
]
Go blow a Kangaroo!

] By the way what's this I read about the senior defence staff of the USA hiding
] the fact that the Japanese were about to attack Pearl harbour in 1941 so that
] America would have an excuse to enter the WWII (albeit 2 years after it began)?
] It cost 2000 lives, I believe.

A myth, of course. Revisionism strikes again. There is evidence that the US
had lots of information about the possibility of a Japanese attack, with
most of it pointing towards the Phillipines, NOT Pearl harbor. Furthermore,
with its typical bureacratic incompetency, Washington had not put
together these various pieces of intelligence. It is only recently that
historians have dug all of this out and discovered that, IF the data
had been collected in one place at the time, and IF it was believed, and
IF the correct interpretation was placed on it, THEN the US might have
guessed at the attack on Pearl Harbor.

[FLAME ON]

Why the HELL are there so god damned many anti-American Aussies on
Usenet? It seems like every group I read there are Aussies accusing
America of every problem on earth! I know that most Aussies aren't
that way... does USENET just collect the idiots of Australia?

If you keep it up, I tell you what I really think! :-) Oh, that's right,
Aussies have trouble keeping it up, don't they?

[FLAME OFF]
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From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <1991Dec10.231618.20656@anasaz>
Date: 10 Dec 91 23:16:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Dec5.151720.17404@anasaz> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 57

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]>In article <1991Dec5.151720.17404@anasaz>, billy@anasaz
]>           (Bill Moore) writes:
]>> In article <[e-mail]>
]>             [e-mail] writes:
]>> ]>I think that they are mistaken... we Americans (regardless of most of our
]>> ]>psychological bents) are not likely to worship anything or anyone that
]>> ]>appeared in wonders from the sky.   Tradition holds that we tend to shoot
]>> ]>first and ask questions later.... but we've managed to develop a bit more
]>> ]>self control these days.
]>>
]>> What tradition holds that we
]>> shoot first and ask questions later?  Americans are known for excercising
]>> incredible restraint. When/where did we ever "shoot first and ask questions
]>> later?"  Americans are the good guys.
]>
]> Billy you forgot the smiley.
]>
No smiley needed.  It was a simple statement of fact. We're the good guys.

This isn't alt.politics so a debate here is out of place.  However, I just
had to respond to a thoughtless, non-sensical allegation that we (Americans)
have a "shoot first and ask questions later" tradition.

> Also you forgot a war of independence, a bloody civil war, many regional wars,
> two world wars, the Korean and Vietnam wars, etc. etc. The only country to nuke
> another in history, a world bully, and the most violent society on earth
> ( check the deaths by violence per head of population). You have the death
> penalty, no gun laws, enormous drug problems, history of the `wild' west, etc.
> as well as a pastime called Presidential Assassination, the mafia, the CIA,
>
I objected to the statement that Americans "shoot first and ask questions
later" and did not intend to get into a "hate America first" debate. The
violence you site does not show Americans to have a "shoot first and ask
questions later" tradition and I never claimed we don't shoot last.
>
>> That's why, when they come, they'll come here first.
>>
>
> To destroy their only danger, perhaps? Please get them before they get us ;-)

OK, OK.  There should have been a smiley on that one.
>
>
> By the way what's this I read about the senior defence staff of the USA hiding
> the fact that the Japanese were about to attack Pearl harbour in 1941 so that
> America would have an excuse to enter the WWII (albeit 2 years after it began)?
Unfortunately it's typical in this group.  Someone makes an off the wall claim
and it's immediately accepted as true.  The fact is, the Japanese led a sneak
attack on Pearl Harbor (shoot first) and we introduced them to the phrase
"ground zero." (shoot last)


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!cis.ksu.edu!meeker
From: [e-mail] (Scott A Meeker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: L.V. UFO Convention
Keywords: Something HUGE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 17:52:10 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University
Lines: 4
NNTP-Posting-Host: harris.cis.ksu.edu

What ever happened to the BIG news at the L.V. Convention? Could
someone give a summary of what happened?

////meeker////
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: The Philadelphia Experiment [was Re:   Time Travel - My First Posting]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 18:38:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 28
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3564 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:366

In article <[e-mail]> system@spectrx writes:
>
>ah, the Philidelphia Experiment, now that is an interesting occurence. Does
>anybody have anymore info on it, other than the movie and some hearsay?

I still don't have a feed of alt.sci..., so I hope I'm not missing anything
good, but meanwhile...

The movie was supposed to be fiction, except for Al Bielek who came forward
several years later to say that he (barely) lived through similar events.
Prior to the movie, the majority of the story came from Carlos Allende who
wrote to Dr. Morris Jessup about it after Jessup published a book about
UFOs in which he said that gravity control was once a known science on
earth and he hoped it could be rediscovered.  Allende didn't want it
rediscovered any more than the Navy had already done.

After Jessup, probably the most research on the subject was done by Charles
Berlitz and Bill Moore who published a book in 1980 or 1981.

Does anyone have any post-Moore but pre-Bielek (or at least Bielek-free)
information on it, either pro or con?  (As you can see, I'm not really
enthusiastic about Bielek's story.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!psuvax1!psuvax1!okunewck
From: [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 19:49:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Organization: Random, at best
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3565 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:367
Nntp-Posting-Host: psuvax1.cs.psu.edu

[e-mail] (Coyt D Watters) writes:
>If Columbus did travel to our time to make it through the Panama canal, I'd
>bet there'd be a lot of groups out to drag him into court for all the
>atrocities committed since he "rediscovered" the western hemisphere (not that
>it was lost, just no one writing the history books had ever found it.)

   Let's be fair here - the only thing Columbus really did was form a
lasting link between the Americas and Europe.  Everything good and bad
that has happened ever since can be attributed to him, which is mighty
impressive considering he was only one man.

   Actually, everything good and bad resulted from the link being
made, not from the man.  The initial disease exchange was smallpox and
syphyllis (indians got smallpox; europeans got syphyllis), yet foods,
animals, technology, and government were exchanged as well.  Either
the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria had unbelievably large cargo holds,
or there was a whole lot more exchanging done than what Columbus did.

   Columbus formed the link and made the initial exchanges.  The rest
is history.

--
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Corrupt Xref line!!  2197 --> sci.phys.skateboarding(1..0)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Firsthand account
Keywords: seawasp
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 20:07:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 27


    Time: a long time ago; 1974, fall, I believe. About 1 in the morning.

    Place: Latham, New York

    Events: The power in our house failed. My brother, at the time,
was scared of the dark, so I went to his room to keep him company. I
looked out the window and saw, against a ceiling of stratus clouds, what
J.Allen Hynek would call a Nocturnal Light. It was a bright white color,
the same as your average airplane headlight, BUT its spectral ratio was
different. I know this because I wear glasses and had taken to looking at
light sources through the edge of the glass; this caused a spectrum to
spray out from the source. This light's blue span was about twice as large
as that for an airplane light.
    The light was, I would estimate, 2.5-3 miles away, and was describing
a perfect circle of about 1/2 degree in size (the size of the full moon),
completing one orbit in about 2 seconds. It remained at 15 degrees or so above
the horizon. My brother saw it as well. We watched it for some considerable
time, perhaps 20 minutes. I went to get a glass of water and, on the way back,
looked out the hall window at it. I was in time to  see the object cease its
orbiting and take off across the sky at a tremendous rate, covering perhaps
60-90 degrees in a second.
    Within a few seconds of this, the power in our house came back on.
I make no claims as to whether there was actually any association between
the object and the power failure, but simply note it as another occurrence.

                Sea Wasp
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!wdl1!wdl1!julie
From: [e-mail] (Julie Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Firsthand account
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 22:12:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Loral
Lines: 31
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 10 Dec 91 18:07:17 GMT

OK, here goes.

Time :  10:00 p.m. Feb. 2, 1990
Place:  Rural Leavenworth County (Northestern Kansas)
Weather:  Very cold and dead clear
# of observers:  Unknown, my husband and I saw it plainly and it was
                 mentioned in several newspapers
Duration:  5 minutes
Description:  Best described as a skyscraper on its side.  Lights
were steady (not blinking) largely red some yellow.  Huge is an
inadequate size estimate.  Probably 1/8 mile in length.  Emitted
a humming sound.  The point where we stopped to watch it is very
high.  It shot across the sky to a point several miles away in
seconds.

It was described in the local newspapers as "a re-entering satellite".
However, it exhibited no burning and moved in a horizontal manner.

Lest I be flamed for a crackpot, I am a quality assurance engineer
for an aerospace firm.  My husband was also an engineer and doesn't
even believe in UFOs (or didn't until that night).  We are not
exactly the "loonie" type, I think.  We just saw something of
incredible beauty.

Regards,

Julie Murphy

--
  What's so bad about being drunk?             Julie Murphy
  Ask a glass of water.                          from the land of Ahs
Path: ns-mx!uunet!infonode!case
From: [e-mail] (Bill Case)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Summary: whoops
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 20:20:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>,
> [e-mail] (Bill Case) writes:
> >  Therefore,  the person who was going to run down the train as the
> >train was a hair away from Speed-o-light would need almost infinite energy
> >just to lift their little toe for step number 1.
>
> No. Because of the relativity principle, the passenger does not feel,
> see, or measure any difference to anyone acting the same way in a
> standing train, unless looking out of the window.

Oh.  You're right,  of course.  Sorry. S-o-L,  I guess :-) Oh well,
I'm only an amateur Speed-of-light, astrophysisist,  specializing in quantum
mechanics :-)

> >A theory I haven't seen mentioned, (unless by another name) is Bell's
> >Theorum which purports to prove that all matter is linked in some
> >way with an instantaeous communication path.
> >.... which impies that mass cannot move faster than light, but
> >information can,  in a way which goes beyond "move".  Kinda spooky.
>
> No. Bell's Theorem states that there are no local hidden parameters.

Oh.  Well, you certainly seem the real physisist here,  Thomas.  But some of
this is semantics.  When I said "beyond 'move'", I was implying that
things weren't actually moving.  I suppose (setting myself up for more
abuse),  that it's better terminology to say that the quantum wave collapses
for both particles when one is measured,  regardless of the distance
between them.  This is mind blowing,  since the test involved polarized
glass and implied that the spin of a particle light years away is not
really defined until its twin particle is measure.  In effect, we know
they have mirrored spins,  but the spin of particle A is defined only
when its twin particle B is measured.  In effect,  the reality of one
point in space is determined when the reality of another point in space
revealed (presented) by measurement,  cauing a collapse of the quantum
wave of possible outcomes.
>
> (One more example that one should not believe everyone claiming
> 'this has been proven'.  In many cases it is just a rumor based on a
> misunderstanding.)

Ooo,  body blow.  Okay, if I've mispoke yet again,  I won't waste
net bandwidth in defense.

B.C.
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.astro
Subject: Mystery Object of Thursday, 12/5
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 18:00:40 GMT
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I've seen nothing on the net regarding this, but I found this in the
Globe:

Without permission from the Boston Globe, 12/7, page 13:

Mystery object eludes astronomers

By David L. Chandler, Globe Staff

    The unidentified object that hurtled past Earth before dawn on
Thursday remains a mystery, astronomers said yesterday, and it
apparently slipped by without them getting a good look.
    A week ago, astronomers had decided that the tiny object,
which passed slightly farther away from Earth than the moon's distance
of 240,000 miles, was probably an asteroid -- a chunk of
interplanetary rock probably less than 30 feet across [BUT, read on!].
    But observations on Monday by European astronomers working in
Chile showed dramatic variations in brightness which suggest an
irregularly shaped, tumbling object with great variations in its
surface reflectivity, much more so than expected for a natural object
like an asteroid, said Brian Marsden, an astronomer.
    Marsden, director of the Cambridge-based International
Astronomical Union's Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams and Minor
Planet Center, said yesterday that the variation in brightness "means
we are dealing with some very peculiar object.  I would say man-made.
I think it wold be hard to explain this kind of variation with a
natural object, even a small one."
    But Marsden and others are still puzzling over what kind of
man-made object it is.
    Marsden said two weeks ago that it was probably the leftover
Centaur rocket used in 1974 to launch a sun-observing satellite called
Helios.  But more precise calculations of the object's orbit, based on
the latest observations, show that, traced backwards, it never quite
meets Earth, as it should if it had been launched from Earth.
    There is a possible explaination for that descrepancy, Marsden
said:  Centaur rockets sometimes contain leftover hydrogen fuel after
they reach orbit, and this fuel could continue to leak out, perhaps
for years.  This could propel the rocket in unpredictable directions,
like air escaping from a balloon that send it careening aound a room.
    During its closest approach to Earth on Thursday, the object
was too far south to be visible from anywhere in the northern
hemisphere.  Astronomers at the European Southern Observatory in Chile
tried to get pictures of it shortly after its closest approach in
order to get more precise data on its exact path and to make further
measurements of its brightness variations.
    But as of yesterday, they were unable to find any sign of the
object in their pictures.
    Because of the difficulty of the observation and the faintness
of the object, astronomers Richard West and Oliver Hainaut at the
observatory in the Chilean Andes continued to examine their images
carefully yesterday.
    These observations are essential to guarantee the success of a
planned radar observation of the object when it returns to visibility
in the northern hemisphere next week.  A successful radar observations
"would clinch it" as to whether the object is natural or artificial,
Marsden said.
    "I was hoping it would be natural," said Marsden, because that
would make it a very unusual type of asteroid and the smallest ever
detected, and therefore interesting to astronomers.  But because of
the brightness changes seen this week, he is now "90 percent sure"
that it is artificial.
    Because of the uncertain movements of a rocket leaking
leftover fuel, however, it may never be possible to identify it as a
specific rocket.
    If it is artificial but not any known rocket, that might
explain the astronomers' inability to locate it in their pictures,
Marsden joked.
    "Maybe that's why they couldn't be found last night," he said.
"Maybe they landed."


Tom
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From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: We Are Not Alone
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 22:04:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In a previous article, [e-mail] (Clark Matthews) says:

>In a message to All <09 Dec 91 18:18> Dale Wedge wrote:
>
> DW> From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
> DW> Date: 9 Dec 91 18:11:46 GMT
> DW> Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
> DW> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
> DW> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
>
> DW> Yeah, I have it on Video.  It was retitled, We Are Not Alone.  It was
> DW> produced by Emmenger and can be seen late at night on T.V.
>
>Hey, Dale!  Thanks for the info!
>
>I'll check on availability of the *new* title.  If I can't find it, any chance of getting a copy?  Many thanks!
>
>(Feel free to reply on ParaNet, Fido UFO, or here!)
>
>Best,
>  Clark
>
>
>--
>Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
>UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
>INTERNET: [e-mail]
>

Come to think of it, if it was not "We Are Not Alone," it might have been
one called, "UFO's:  It Has Begun."  Anyways, without looking at the video
I can't tell you.  I do have both.  Let me know if you need a copy.
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From: [e-mail] (Chris Boaro)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 91 20:53:43 GMT
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rick) writes:

>I missed the thread in sci.skeptic, but I have a question about information
>transfer.  Assume I have a rod, 1 light year long, made of an an *extremely*
>rigid material (hey, this is hypothetical, let's say infinitely rigid).
>My friend is in a p-suit at one end, I'm at the other.  I push very hard
>on one end (OK, inertia, etc - let's say infinitely rigid, non-compressible,
>almost massless).  This push represents a bit of information.  If the rod
>is non-copressible, etc, this bit arrives at the other end of the rod at
>the same time as I transmit it.  But, of course, that would be sending
>information faster than c.  Despite the magic material that the rod is
>made from, does it compress (dilate, whatever) to transfer the bit at
>speed c?

>Yours in wonderment,
>Rick.

No, no.. this can be demonstrated to be incorrect by observing motorists
waiting for a red light to change. Try this experient: stop your car
behind 25 others stopped at a red light. Wait for the light to change.
Now, note how long it takes before you can start moving. Intuition says
that you should be able to start forward as soon as you "see" the first
car start to move. But this is not the case, it may be several seconds
before you start to move. Why? Because, although the LIGHT emitted from
the lead vehicle has reached you almost instantly, the INFORMATION
traveling down the length of cars takes MUCH longer.

This proves that information travels slower then light.

:)

Chris
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From: [e-mail] (Ben Delisle)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Summary: If you could go backwards in time.. Here's one more problem.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 91 09:34:29 GMT
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1576-
    I've mentiond this before, but a long time ago....
 There is another problem with time travel that has been over looked.
 This model will assume that a method for reverse time travel has been
acheived.

      One thing is that if you try to go back into time in addation to
the time loop paradoxies, is that you must pass through the time-space
coordinates that you occupied in the preivous moments. It would not be
fun to be in once place twice at the same time. Not only that, you would
not be able to conduct the process in the first place because you passed
through your self on your way to the 1,000 bc or what ever. (paradox
even before you can do any thing fun.) This can take in account for
celestial motions because you wont really move that far in a few micro
seconds to your previous time-space location that you are passing
through.

| || ||| ||||| ||||||| [e-mail] |||||||||||
The advance of civilization means the continuing restrictions on privacy
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From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 00:19:39 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Coyt D Watters) writes:
>If Columbus did travel to our time to make it through the Panama canal, I'd
>bet there'd be a lot of groups out to drag him into court for all the
>atrocities committed since he "rediscovered" the western hemisphere (not that
>it was lost, just no one writing the history books had ever found it.)

Funny how the PC crowd never mentions that the
Aztecs were into stuff like _human_sacrifice_.



--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <1991Dec11.211646.3060@anasaz>
Date: 11 Dec 91 21:16:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Dec9.153946.2120@anasaz> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]>In article <1991Dec9.153946.2120@anasaz>, billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes:
]>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

... stuff deleted ...

]>> NASA is the bad guy all the way over in the UK too?  They don't intimidate us
]>> over here, they just outwit us.  For example, they told us GALILEO was going
]>> to Jupiter and we all believed them.  Now we know the truth.  Thank you.
]>> BTW, what do you hear from Magellian (
]>> --
]>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
]>>      Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
]>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
]>
]>Well, I've already posted my disclaimer, but I'd better put the record straight
]>for all you ignorant people out there.  The Galileo spaceprobe is indeed going
]>to Jupiter, but its trajectory takes it via Venus and the Earth (twice) in
]>order to gain the energy to get to its final target (a move known as the Venus
]>Earth Earth Gravity Assist or VEEGA).  The Venus encounter has been described
]>in the 27th September edition of Science in case any of the "experts" out there
]>want to argue.
]>    Also, there is no radar on Galileo (that is Magellan) and the antenna
]>is still not open (at least that fact as right)
]>
I was aware of Galileo's trajectory and its "encounter" with Venus when I
posted my response. I was also aware that Galileo was not capable of a Venus
survey and could not possibly be the source of any dramatic new science
about that planet. It passed by just as my sarcastic reference to Magellan
passed by you and your friend.

Few of the people who read this group are "ignorant." Crazy, certainly but
not ignorant.
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj
From: [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 01:43:20 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
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[e-mail] (Ben Delisle) says:

> I've mentiond this before, but a long time ago....
> There is another problem with time travel that has been over looked.
> This model will assume that a method for reverse time travel has been
> acheived.

Many posts about time travel operate under the misconception that it
necessarily involves travelling backwards through time in the same local
region that other objects are travelling forward.  This is not the case
for any of the scenarios that are presently being studied.

The possibility of time travel in GR results from the possibility of
having an unusual topology of the manifold.  In such a case, one sets
out in a conventional rocket and travels around the topological defect,
(which might be caused by a string, rotating cylinder, or wormhole)
and then returns to one's own past (perhaps).

This picture does not invoke any unusual *LOCAL* behavior.  Energy
and momentum are conserved, for example.  Time travel in this case
is a very similar phenomenon to that in which Magellan was able to
end up East of his starting point even though he only travelled west.

Trivia: Magellan was killed in the East Indies and never completed
        his voyage
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From: [e-mail] (Csn0441)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium
Keywords: any books yet?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 06:05:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber) writes:
>
>Deimos has diameters of 16km (longest) 12km (intermediate) and 10km
>(shortest) An object as large as 15km x 5km would very likely be
>visible from Earth, It would hardly require a probe to see, unless it
>were very dark.  In which case, the probe may not have even be able to
>see it.

I haven't seen the picture, but since the probe was in the vicinity of
Mars and Phobos, probably directing it's cameras toward one or the other,
it would only make sense that the object was silhouetted against the
planet/moon.   From the Earth's viewpoint, it would likely not be in
a favorable viewing position, and in any case it would be difficult to
see such a moving object unless you knew exactly where and when to look.
You may have a point if the object is in a stable position/orbit.
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From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: The Philadelphia Experiment [was Re:   Time Travel - My First Po
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 03:08:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
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[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> system@spectrx writes:
> >
> >ah, the Philidelphia Experiment, now that is an interesting occurence. Does
> >anybody have anymore info on it, other than the movie and some hearsay?
>
> I still don't have a feed of alt.sci..., so I hope I'm not missing anything
> good, but meanwhile...
>
> The movie was supposed to be fiction, except for Al Bielek who came forward
> several years later to say that he (barely) lived through similar events.
> Prior to the movie, the majority of the story came from Carlos Allende who
> wrote to Dr. Morris Jessup about it after Jessup published a book about
        And so on. Actually, the funneist part of the Moore-Berlitz book was
when they dragged in 'Einstein's Unified Field Theory' as the basis for this
experiment. Problem is, Einstein _never developed_ a Unified Field Theory.
Not only that, but his rejection of quantum physics almost ensured that he'd
never find it.

        When research is this shoddy, it makes me wonder how Moore's book
ever got published.


Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano
[e-mail]
Organizer of the Delaware Valley Skeptics (though opinions posted are my own,
and not representative).
"Meanwhile, in the darkness and void, Jean-Paul Sartre was a-movin' and a
groovin'." -- Crow, Mystery Science Theater 3000.
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re:  Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 15:58:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
...
> In the physics field, the evidence is also only anecdotal and concerns the
> Navy accidentally teleporting a ship while trying to make it invisible.

Jim, can you provide more information on this? Also, wasn't there
a SF movie based on such an occurence?

Craig
-- "She keeps a Moet et Chandor   Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  In her pretty cabinet.              Internet: [e-mail] --
--  'Let them eat cake' she says      Austin: [e-mail] --
--  Just like Marie Antoinette".                    VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
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From: [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 07:57:31 GMT
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Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ben Delisle) writes:
>
>
>
>      One thing is that if you try to go back into time in addation to
>the time loop paradoxies, is that you must pass through the time-space
>coordinates that you occupied in the preivous moments. It would not be
>fun to be in once place twice at the same time. Not only that, you would
>not be able to conduct the process in the first place because you passed
>through your self on your way to the 1,000 bc or what ever. (paradox
>even before you can do any thing fun.) This can take in account for
>celestial motions because you wont really move that far in a few micro
>seconds to your previous time-space location that you are passing
>through.
>



Yes, but consider THIS.  Assuming that you're travelling faster than the speed
of light when you cross the boundary and begin to travel backward
in time.

At that point, aren't you REALLY now in a completely DIFFERENT  energy
state than when you were travelling SLOWER than the speed of light?

In other words, because nothing ELSE can travel at faster than the speed
of light, how can anything have any EFFECT on you?

Just a little food for thought...

--
"Dave, Dave That CompuServe Kinda Guy"  (Not my fault, I JUST work there!)
    [e-mail]  -&-  [e-mail]
    -OR-  [e-mail].
"If it can't be expressed in figures, it's not science; it is opinion."
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From: [e-mail] (Joe Wang)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 09:34:25 GMT
References: <![e-mail]> <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (R. Kym Horsell) writes:
>In article <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz> morris@anasaz (Bob Morris) writes:
>>What about the "stuff" ejected from Supernova 1987A that was observed
>>at time t0 and later at time t1 at a distance d > (t1-t0) * C?

Just because something looks like it's moving faster than the speed of
light doesn't mean that it's really doing so.  It could be a trick of
the perspective.

Imagine a flat sheet of gas.  Now imagine a flash of radiation behind
this flat sheet expanding like a sphere at the speed of light.  Sort
of like

       !   (
       !  (
       ! (
       ! (      x center of the sphere
       ! (
       !  (
       !   (

Now imagine the view from the front.  When the radiation hits the
sheet you'll see an expanding circle of fluorescing gas at the
intersection of the sphere and sheet, and if you think about it,
this circle will appear to be expanding at faster than the speed
of light.

>Or the relevant neurinos actually were ejected during or perhaps
>before the final collapse of the star and hence arrived before the
>light pulse. ;-)

If that did happen, we'd have a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY BIG mystery on
our hands.  (Un)fortunately, the light arrived several hours after the
neutrinos.

As it stands, the only mysteries are REALLY BIG ones instead of REALLY,
REALLY, REALLY BIG ones :-)

(One mystery is why was SN1987A a blue supergiant instead of the red
one that the computer model says it should have been.)

> >Using the skeptical approach, which is more likely:
>(a) we don't understand the exact mechanics of stellar collapse;
>(b) the speed of light was violated.

Actually, if we observed neutrinos after seeing light, then I would bet
that the speed of light or something equally sacred had been violated.
But since that didn't happen, Einstein triumphs again.
Path: ns-mx!saul.ccad.uiowa.edu!emcguire
From: [e-mail] (Ed McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: The Philadelphia Experiment [was Re:   Time Travel - My First Po
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 14:50:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Ed McGuire)
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3581 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:401

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes:

|>         When research is this shoddy, it makes me wonder how Moore's book
|> ever got published.

There was a market for it.
--
peace.  -- Ed
"Over here, Bones!  This man's dying!"
"Damn it, Jim!  I'm a doctor, not a . . .  What did you say?"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!inetg1!ut-emx!astro.as.utexas.edu!joe
From: [e-mail] (Joe Wang)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 08:55:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:405 sci.physics:15392 sci.skeptic:18481 alt.alien.visitors:3582

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chuck Sites) writes:
>Yawh.. Well, It is possible to observe the past. It's impossible to
>to interact with the past though. Can one observe the future?

The funny thing is that at the smallest levels, there is no difference
between travelling to the past and travelling to the future.  It's
only when you put large numbers of particles together that you get an
"arrow" of time.

In other words, if you record a movie of a subatomic process and play
it backwards you will (with only one weird exception) be unable to
tell that anything is wrong.

>So while one can
>stretch the imaginary distance between the end point of the time
>ray, and the arrow point of the ray, what we call the speed of light,
>beyond either end point nothing exists.

Huh?  Explain what you are saying because I do not understand.

>So if someone tell you time is the 4th dimension.

What someone means by saying that time is the 4th dimensions is that you
need four numbers to uniquely describe the time and space of an event.

For example, relativity to my snapping my fingers now, the clock ticks
at (x=10 cm, y=0 cm, z= 0 cm, t = 10 seconds).

>Tell them that's not quite right. It really is dimensionaly incomplete. QED.

What do you mean by dimensionally incomplete?  I've never encountered the
term.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pilchuck!ssc!fylz!eskimo!delisle
From: [e-mail] (Ben Delisle)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Polar shift and Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 07:39:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: ESKIMO NORTH [phone] SEATTLE WA.
Lines: 31


--
   From the information I've heard is the polar sift of the Earth is
not a phisical change of the planatary orientation, it is only the
magnetic poles that reverse from north magnetic @ north real, to north
magnetic @ south real. The magnetic poles will probably be at differant
locations from their current location. From where I am now, Magnetic
north is about 15 degrees east of true north.
They are currently wandering around, they move slowly from place to
place.

   On a reversial of the poles for around the year 2000...
I read something that sais that the sun will, during the peak of the
solar sunspot cycle, it will have a type of nova that will burst a lair
of build up, a crust if you will. It is claimed that this happens every
12,000 years like clockwork, and is the cause of events like
extenctions, iceages, desaert ages, and other clamity. The auther of the
book I read this in said that in astronomical data, there is evidence to
show that in 12,000ly intervales there are shells or walls of mass that
are spherical and equal distance from our system. He sais it is not,
however strong enough to kill the earth, but is is very tramatic. The
event pushes the atmospheare to the dark side of the planet for a sec,
cooking the sunside by exposure to the sun and freezing the darkside
when the atmospheare returns to normal (a sudden drop in pressure causes
flash freezing. (Cool, huh?)
  I read this a long time ago in a book called "Reality Revaled" by Doug
Vought. (Spelling unsure)


| || ||| ||||| ||||||| [e-mail] |||||||||
And no... I can't spell.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pilchuck!ssc!fylz!eskimo!delisle
From: [e-mail] (Ben Delisle)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 08:07:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: ESKIMO NORTH [phone] SEATTLE WA.
Lines: 40

[e-mail] writes:
>
>   Dear all,
>        I have undergone much soul-searching and agonising about this,
>        but I feel I must be true to myself and give everyone the full
>        news. I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results
from
>        Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien
>        civilisation on Venus. NASA have supressed the news but I feel
it
>        is my duty to make the full facts known.
>
>        I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so
frightened
>        and I really don't know what to do.
>        Please, does anybody know what to do?
>
>       A.COLLARD      [e-mail]
>
>

    Now You said somethin, You have a duty to share any thing You know
anout this, for it is information that will set us all free from the
bonds of mind oppression. Include all the doucments You can (don't
forget to include  any pictuers or gifs, uucode them  to keep the mailers
happy :)
    I do not under stand Your fear, It is irrevilant and illogical. from
Your .UK domaine in Your address, You are several miles away from NASA,
and becides they have little time or money to bug people giving out
special information.
Any aliens are probably illegal any way and would be deported if they
tryed any thing funny.
    You want to know what to do? I know, Tell us everything. Since I
already helped pay for the probes to go out there in a portion of my
income tax money, I want to kow everything! The source is irrevilant if
it is accurate.
--
| || ||| ||||| ||||||| [e-mail] |||||||||||
The advance of civilization means the continuing restrictions on privacy
--
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cc.helsinki.fi!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: The Philadelphia Experiment [was Re:   Time Travel - My First Po
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 14:34:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 23
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3585 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:406

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes:
> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>
>> In article <[e-mail]> system@spectrx writes:
>> >
>> >ah, the Philidelphia Experiment, now that is an interesting occurence. Does

>         And so on. Actually, the funneist part of the Moore-Berlitz book was
> when they dragged in 'Einstein's Unified Field Theory' as the basis for this
> experiment. Problem is, Einstein _never developed_ a Unified Field Theory.
> Not only that, but his rejection of quantum physics almost ensured that he'd
> never find it.


    Actually, I think there is some evidence that Einstein did develop
some kind of theory, but was found one day in his office tearing it up.
"The world is not ready for this ..."  Einstein was, of course, horrified
to find that one of his theories had lead to the atomic bomb, and didn't want
to repeat his mistake.

jason
[e-mail]
"I think we should be told ..."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re^2: Firsthand account
Keywords: seawasp
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 14:59:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Wazmodyne Systems
Lines: 10
Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
gives his account of a "nocturnal light".

>I make no claims as to whether there was actually any association between
>the object and the power failure, but simply note it as another occurrence.

That would fit the pattern of other reports like car ignitions and
such.  Interesting...
--
              [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!pony.acadiau.ca!aucs!850347s
From: [e-mail] (Hume Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <850347s.692553022@aucs>
Date: 12 Dec 91 15:50:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Acadia University
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[e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Coyt D Watters) writes:
>>If Columbus did travel to our time to make it through the Panama canal, I'd
>>bet there'd be a lot of groups out to drag him into court for all the
>>atrocities committed since he "rediscovered" the western hemisphere (not that
>>it was lost, just no one writing the history books had ever found it.)

>Funny how the PC crowd never mentions that the
>Aztecs were into stuff like _human_sacrifice_.

nor mentions it was Europeans who invented scalping.  i forget if it
was the english or the french...  they'd pay for pelts no matter the
origin, it seemed.
--
Hume                                       [e-mail]    //
310 Horton / Acadia University / Wolfville / Nova Scotia / B0P 1X0  \X/
There are only two kinds of people in the world to avoid - evangelists
and angle trisectors.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!stl!dsbc!abw
From: [e-mail] (Andy Wardley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 17:19:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: ICL Bracknell, UK
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3588 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:415

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Boaro) writes:
>
>This proves that information travels slower then light.

Not really relevant, but inheritance actually travels faster than the speed
of light.  For example, if the Queen died tommorow, Charlie Boy would become
King instantaneosly, irrespective of his location in this galaxy or any other.

(can't remember where I got this from, but accreditation to him/her anyway)


Cheers
Andy



--
______________________________________________________________________________
_  standard disclaimer             , '                         Andy Wardley  _
_  available on request...        -o O-                 [e-mail]  _
_ "You have pleasantly              l                                        _
_  wibbled my frusset pouch"        _  "Go on Punk, make my lunch"           _
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!coombs!joshua
From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Polar shift and Aliens
Message-ID: <joshua.692565041@coombs>
Date: 12 Dec 91 19:10:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Lines: 23

[e-mail] (Ben Delisle) writes:


|>I read something that sais that the sun will, during the peak of the
|>solar sunspot cycle, it will have a type of nova that will burst a lair
|>of build up, a crust if you will. It is claimed that this happens every
|>12,000 years like clockwork, and is the cause of events like
|>extenctions, iceages, desaert ages, and other clamity. The auther of the
|>book I read this in said that in astronomical data, there is evidence to
|>show that in 12,000ly intervales there are shells or walls of mass that
|>are spherical and equal distance from our system. He sais it is not,
|>however strong enough to kill the earth, but is is very tramatic. The
|>event pushes the atmospheare to the dark side of the planet for a sec,
|>cooking the sunside by exposure to the sun and freezing the darkside
|>when the atmospheare returns to normal (a sudden drop in pressure causes
|>flash freezing. (Cool, huh?)
|>  I read this a long time ago in a book called "Reality Revaled" by Doug
|>Vought. (Spelling unsure)

sure glad we didn't step in it.

josh
Path: ns-mx!saul.ccad.uiowa.edu!emcguire
From: [e-mail] (Ed McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: The Philadelphia Experiment [was Re:   Time Travel - My First Po
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 19:59:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Ed McGuire)
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3590 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:417

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:

|>     Actually, I think there is some evidence that Einstein did develop
|> some kind of theory, but was found one day in his office tearing it up.
|> "The world is not ready for this ..."  Einstein was, of course, horrified
|> to find that one of his theories had lead to the atomic bomb, and didn't want
|> to repeat his mistake.

I have come up with a truly wonderful proof that there can be no unified field
theory, but there isn't sufficient space in my editor window for me to post it
here.

*snork*
--
peace.  -- Ed
"Over here, Bones!  This man's dying!"
"Damn it, Jim!  I'm a doctor, not a . . .  What did you say?"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Polar shift and Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 19:36:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ben Delisle) writes:
          ...
>   From the information I've heard is the polar sift of the Earth is
>not a phisical change of the planatary orientation, it is only the
>magnetic poles that reverse from north magnetic @ north real, to north
          ...

Well, I've read somewhere (wish I had a ref., sorry) that there is geological
evidence that the rotational axis of the earth has changed more than once in
the past.  The evidence consisted of ancient glacial striations in the crust
that radiated from areas that are far from the current axis.  The polar
ice-caps always build up at the poles and then creap radially towards the
equator.

I don't know if this is explained entirely by continental drift.

--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!coombs!joshua
From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <joshua.692566821@coombs>
Date: 12 Dec 91 19:40:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <850347s.692553022@aucs>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Lines: 29

[e-mail] (Hume Smith) writes:

|>[e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:

|>>In article <[e-mail]>
|>>[e-mail] (Coyt D Watters) writes:
|>>>If Columbus did travel to our time to make it through the Panama canal, I'd
|>>>bet there'd be a lot of groups out to drag him into court for all the
|>>>atrocities committed since he "rediscovered" the western hemisphere (not
|>>>that it was lost, just no one writing the history books had ever found it.)

|>>Funny how the PC crowd never mentions that the
|>>Aztecs were into stuff like _human_sacrifice_.

Yes, but they had a really cool lifestyle. I mean the clothes, the
jewelry, cigarettes, peyote, the food ... what's a few (thousand)
sacrifices a year in exchange for a really colorful lifestyle? Even
if the major color is red.

|>nor mentions it was Europeans who invented scalping.  i forget if it
|>was the english or the french...  they'd pay for pelts no matter the
|>origin, it seemed.

This is not for sure; certainly the iroquois and such had enough amusing
practices of their own. Certainly the euros encouraged scalping....


josh
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!transfer!bu2.bu.edu!bu.edu!dartvax!dartvax!smoore
From: [e-mail] (Sean Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Polar shift and Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 21:24:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News Manager)
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Lines: 9
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 12 Dec 91 19:36:18 GMT

I have read a few pop science artilcles on this - and it is known that
the sun does a magentic shifting of poles every 11,000 years or so.
Another interesting thing I remember reading about the earth's
flipping of its magnetic orientation is that the while the flip is
occuring the Van Allen belts deteriorate, thus allowing lots of high
energy rays to bombard the earth's surface and possibly cause genetic
mutations - somebody was going to do a correlation study between the
flips and speciation.
- S
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re^2: Polar shift and Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 23:29:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Ben Delisle) writes:

>I read something that sais that the sun will, during the peak of the
>solar sunspot cycle, it will have a type of nova that will burst a lair
>of build up, a crust if you will. ...

Reading an elementary astronomy text would clear up a lot of
misconceptions that are bandied about in this group.
--
              [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!rpi!uwm.edu!news.mr.med.ge.com!news
From: [e-mail] (Scott Campbell Mfg QIE 4-6778)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 00:02:34 GMT
References: <joshua.692566821@coombs>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Nntp-Posting-Host: clam

From article <joshua.692566821@coombs>, by [e-mail] (Joshua Geller):
> [e-mail] (Hume Smith) writes:
>
>
> Yes, but they had a really cool lifestyle. I mean the clothes, the
> jewelry, cigarettes, peyote, the food ... what's a few (thousand)
> sacrifices a year in exchange for a really colorful lifestyle? Even
> if the major color is red.


what's a few (thousand) sacrifices a year, how would you like to be the
first one?  Its easy to be the one doing the cutting, but put the shoe
on the other foot


Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!mp.cs.niu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu![e-mail]
From: [e-mail] (Chuckles)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 04:39:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
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Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:429 sci.physics:15422 sci.skeptic:18494 alt.alien.visitors:3596

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes:
> >>>>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.
> >>>    Answer: Only forward, and only by waiting.
> >>
> >>Actually, I remember hearing that some serious theoretical physicist (I
> >>seem to remember an association with Wheeler, but could be wrong) had
> >>actually worked out a scenario for time-reversal in the presence of a very
> >>large rotating mass.  The math was done for an infinitely long cylinder of
> >>extremely high density.  This caused a bit of speculation about whether it
> >>was something that could show up in the vicinity of a pulsar.
> >
> > Well, I have a hard time accepting any method that calls for infinite
> > mass as anything other than moronic theorising.
> >    [ranting about infinite mass deleted]
>
> You seem to have a hard time with the way physics is, in its initial
> stages, worked out and presented ;-)
> The theory never called for infinite mass.  The cylinder was (in the
> secondhand description I read) infinitely long only to avoid having to deal
> with end effects.  And it may not have had to be all that dense, but it had to
> rotate fast enough to get relativistic surface velocities.  Also, it
> wasn't Wheeler, it was Tipler.  If you go back or forward through the
> thread you can find where someone was kind enough to post the reference.
>
> >There are time dilation effects in the vicinity of large masses
> > but these are rate of change effects only in magnitude, it never quite
> > gets to sign. The trouble is that to stop time you need infinite mass,
> > but to make it go backwards you need multiples of infinite mass and
> >
> > [ranting but funny attribution of theory to hallucinogens deleted]
> > supermo
>
> Like I said, you don't need the infinite mass, just the rotation.
> --
 There is also a theory about the speed of intersection of intergalatic scissors
The point of this theory is that if you make a set of scissors big enough, when
you close them the point of intersection will be moving faster than the speed
of light even though the arms may only be moving slowly.

The problem with both of these theories are just that they are impossible out
of the realm of theory.  No real physical object could survive the physical
demands placed upon it by these theories, and the object would be torn apart
so no true physical object can move FTL

As for moving backwards in time, isn't that what antimatter (positrons
(+ electrons) and negatrons) particles are.  Just the real object moving
opposite the observer on the time axis...

Live long and question authority
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!coombs!joshua
From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <joshua.692599799@coombs>
Date: 13 Dec 91 04:49:59 GMT
References: <joshua.692566821@coombs> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
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[e-mail] (Scott Campbell Mfg QIE 4-6778) writes:

|>From article <joshua.692566821@coombs>, by [e-mail]
|>(Joshua Geller):
|>> [e-mail] (Hume Smith) writes:

|>> Yes, but they had a really cool lifestyle. I mean the clothes, the
|>> jewelry, cigarettes, peyote, the food ... what's a few (thousand)
|>> sacrifices a year in exchange for a really colorful lifestyle? Even
|>> if the major color is red.

|>what's a few (thousand) sacrifices a year, how would you like to be the
|>first one?  Its easy to be the one doing the cutting, but put the shoe
|>on the other foot

a mind is a terrible thing....

josh
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!sdd.hp.com!news!network.ucsd.edu!jacobi.ucsd.edu!mbk
From: [e-mail] (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 05:15:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (R. Kym Horsell) writes:
> In article <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz> morris@anasaz (Bob Morris) writes:
> >What about the "stuff" ejected from Supernova 1987A that was observed
> >at time t0 and later at time t1 at a distance d > (t1-t0) * C?  (If
> >math is not your strong point, this simply means that the "stuff"
> >moved a distance in a time that required speeds greater than C to
> >accomplish).
>
> Or the relevant neurinos actually were ejected during or perhaps
> before the final collapse of the star and hence arrived before the
> light pulse. ;-)

So if Ray Davis suddenly sees 500,000 neutrinos in one second, we might
have a couple hours' warnings before the radiation from ex-Betelgeuse
fries us?   :-)

>
> -kym


Matt Kennel
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Hidden Aliens???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 04:52:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>Has anybody considered that bodies, alien or otherwise, that have been
>sitting in some military base since 1947 might just have decomposed
>after 44 years?

Has anybody considered that something as powerful as the U.S. government
ought to be able to come up with a way to preserve them?

(Not to mention the fact that some people say we've picked up more than one
set.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 04:54:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>  Please accept my apologies and direct any complaints to Mr. Joshi,

You might want to direct a complaint to your system administrator, unless
of course it was your fault he got into your account.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!milton!sumax!polari!rwing!eskimo!delisle
From: [e-mail] (Ben Delisle)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FAA UFO Guidelines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 07:37:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: ESKIMO NORTH [phone] SEATTLE WA.
Lines: 13


--
   The FAA takes a very dim view of people or beings operating aircraft
or spacecraft that is  in restricred or controlled airspace.
They are really hard on those who are not properly licensed or don't
have their craft registered, taxed and inspected.  UFO's don't file
their flight plans at the local ATC center. The FAA also finds it
difficult to prosecute the operaters of UFO's for violations of air
space useage regulations.

| || ||| ||||| ||||||| [e-mail] |||||||||||
The advance of civilization means the continuing restrictions on privacy
--
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cc.helsinki.fi!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Where is Orvotron?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 12:57:13 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 12


    Isn't it about time we had another Orvotron Newsletter?
I really love reading about the antics of those goofy little guys with
the crystal fetish.  Maybe they have a secretarial problem.  Good secretaries
who will travel light years to work are hard to find ... just imagine the
travel expenses ...
    Seriously, it would be nice to know of the state of the world from
the good old Orvotron viewpoint again.  Might liven-up the discussions on this
group too ...

Jason
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re^2: Polar shift and Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 13:35:31 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 21


>[e-mail] (Ben Delisle) writes:
>
>I read something that sais that the sun will, during the peak of the
>solar sunspot cycle, it will have a type of nova that will burst a lair
>of build up, a crust if you will. ...

        Well folks since we just went through one of these deadly 11 year
        sunspot cycles and are still alive, I  guess stuff like the above
        is to say the lease wrong.

        The "type of nova" mentioned is probably a  reference  to a solar
        flare and since this type of event is continuously  happening  on
        the sun I guess  that we have nothing to worry about do we.

        Go  and  fear no more children the sun is not going to  blow  and
        push  our  atmosphere  from one side of our planet to another and
        alternatly freeze and cook us.


        Steve Food_for_the_Greys
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!cebarton
From: [e-mail] (Casey Barton)
Newsgroups: alt.stupidity,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Which newsgroup?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 14:29:39 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx alt.stupidity:3512 alt.alien.visitors:3604


     I've decided to group my reading according to level of intelligence
within the group. I'm now trying to decide which one to put last -
alt.stupidity or alt.alien.visitors. Any suggestions? Any other nominations
for "last place" contentions?
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Casey Barton (Mr.)   [e-mail]   [phone]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Stay tuned...We'll be right back after these important messages...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!ucla-se!uclapp.physics.ucla.edu!PRICE
From: [e-mail] (John Price)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 09:22:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Organization: UCLA Particle Physics Research Group
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:433 sci.physics:15428 sci.skeptic:18503 alt.alien.visitors:3605 alt.config:5582

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Matt Kennel) writes:
>[e-mail] (R. Kym Horsell) writes:
>> In article <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz> morris@anasaz (Bob Morris) writes:
>> >What about the "stuff" ejected from Supernova 1987A that was observed
>> >at time t0 and later at time t1 at a distance d > (t1-t0) * C?

>> Or the relevant neurinos actually were ejected during or perhaps
>> before the final collapse of the star and hence arrived before the
>> light pulse. ;-)

>So if Ray Davis suddenly sees 500,000 neutrinos in one second, we might
>have a couple hours' warnings before the radiation from ex-Betelgeuse
>fries us?   :-)

At the very least, it means that we should spend that couple of hours
getting him to Sweden for figuring out a detector that can see 500,000
neutrinos in one second.

           John Price * * * * [e-mail]
           Only Nixon could go to China.
                                   --Ancient Vulcan Proverb
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!rutgers!rochester!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!dh4j+
From: [e-mail] (David O Hunt)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 15:47:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Masters student, Mechanical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:434 sci.skeptic:18504 alt.alien.visitors:3606 sci.physics:15429
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

>As for moving backwards in time, isn't that what antimatter (positrons
>(+ electrons) and negatrons) particles are.  Just the real object moving
>opposite the observer on the time axis...
>

Remembering back to the days when I was a Physics Major, anti-matter exists.
It's just a matter of convenience to look at it as stated above.




David Hunt
Grad Student, Mechanical Engineering
Carnegie Mellon University
========================================================
My mind is my own, so are my ideas and opinions.
My heart, body, and soul, however, all belong to others.

What's the difference between a catfish and a laywer?

One's a slimy scum-sucking bottom feeder.  The other's
a fish!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpfcso!hpgrla!notes
From: [e-mail] (notes administrator (Dan Peterson))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Firsthand account
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 04:46:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO
Lines: 13


from another amateur astronomer. I have seen unusual but not completely
unexplainable events occurring very late at night. I also want to hear
your story. Be as technical as possible and describe what you were
observing with your scope and whether or not you had a camera with you.

starman

"alien life exists on this planet. just watch one of the PBS shows
about gelatinous creatures that live on volcanic vents on the ocean
floor. The aliens living here are under a gazillion pounds of water
pressure, eat sulfuric acid, and don't need sunlight. Why look up?
just look around.... starman"
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!mars.cis.ohio-state.edu!weiler
From: [e-mail] (Gerald Weiler)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 20:55:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NETnews        )
Organization: Ohio State Computer Science
Lines: 53
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:441 sci.physics:15435 sci.skeptic:18515 alt.alien.visitors:3608
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Fri, 13 Dec 1991 04: 39:15 GMT
Originator: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chuckles) writes:
>There is also a theory about the speed of intersection of intergalatic
>scissors The point of this theory is that if you make a set of
>scissors big enough, when you close them the point of intersection
>will be moving faster than the speed of light even though the arms may
>only be moving slowly.

>The problem with both of these theories are just that they are
>impossible out of the realm of theory.  No real physical object could
>survive the physical demands placed upon it by these theories, and the
>object would be torn apart so no true physical object can move FTL

No, actually, with the right materials, it probably would be possible
to build scissors that could close this fast. They don't really have
to be that big, simply close fast. That way, if you take a large pair
of scissors that close fast enough, the 'point' at which the two
blades meet will travel down the blades at a rate faster than the
speed of light. This does not break the theory that 'c' is an absolute
maximum speed for particles, because the point at which they meet is
not really a particle.

The law could really be stated that no information carrying particle
can go faster than the speed of light. The point on the scissors is
not really carrying information in any sense. And you cannot open and
close the scissors fast enough to make the point go back and forth at
the speed of light. If you were to try it, you would find that the
scissors could not really take this acceleration. That and the fact
that there probably is some kind of lag in the response of the
particles at the end of the blades, and when you squeeze the handle of
the scissors...

Thus, a 'virtual point' if you want to call it that, like the meeting
of the blades of the scissors, can go faster than light, but this says
nothing about whether or not the speed of light is a maximum for
particles, as this isn't a particle we're talking about here...

>As for moving backwards in time, isn't that what antimatter (positrons
>(+ electrons) and negatrons) particles are.  Just the real object moving
>opposite the observer on the time axis...

No, I don't think the theories predict that antimatter goes backward
in time, but that antimatter particles only mirror spin and charge (I
could be wrong - does anyone know about this?) I think you really mean
Tachyons, but they're different. Supposedly they do move FTL, but
they're only theoretical (I don't really know what the theories are
about them)

>Live long and question authority
--
" Home is someplace you say 'My, this looks just like it did when I left'
  not 'My, this looks like six million dragons flew in and wrecked the
  joint!' " - Tasslehoff Burrfoot in DragonLance Legends
-------Gerald Weiler---([e-mail])-----------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psgrain!onion!pail!bucket!ralex
From: [e-mail] (Randy Alexander)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: OG. Anyone ever hear of it?
Keywords: OG
Message-ID: <ralex.692699369@bucket>
Date: 14 Dec 91 08:29:29 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News)
Organization: Rick's Home-Grown Un*x
Lines: 13
Nntp-Posting-Host: bucket.rain.com

Ok, I have my earmuffs on so go ahead and laugh, but has anyone
ever hear about a race of aliens from a planet called OG? (Stupid
name I know...)

Also anyone read a book called 'Allies' by Bob Shapiro & Edouard Mabe?
Any comments on it?

Randy

--
INTERNET: [e-mail]
--
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re:  The Philadelphia Experiment [was Re:   Time Travel - My First Po
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 05:24:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3610 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:452

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes:
>        And so on. Actually, the funneist part of the Moore-Berlitz book was
>when they dragged in 'Einstein's Unified Field Theory' as the basis for this
>experiment. Problem is, Einstein _never developed_ a Unified Field Theory.
>Not only that, but his rejection of quantum physics almost ensured that he'd
>never find it.

Well, Moore says that he *did* develop a unified field theory and didn't
publish it, if I remember rightly.  But I see your point.

>        When research is this shoddy, it makes me wonder how Moore's book
>ever got published.

Somebody told me that Moore recanted about 1986, but I never heard the
details.  I really can't imagine him doing it, but that doesn't mean he
didn't.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re:   Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 06:04:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 63
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3611 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:453

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Craig Becker) writes:
>[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>...
>> In the physics field, the evidence is also only anecdotal and concerns the
>> Navy accidentally teleporting a ship while trying to make it invisible.
>
>Jim, can you provide more information on this? Also, wasn't there
>a SF movie based on such an occurence?

Bill Moore wrote a book about it, it's called "The Philadelphia Experiment"
because nobody has been able to come up with a better name.(*)  It's been
mentioned in other books such as Berlitz's "The Bermuda Triangle".

Basically, the story is this:  the astrophysicist Morris Jessup wrote a
book about UFOs and included speculation to the effect that the UFOs can
control gravity, and also that antigravity was used to build the pyramids
etc.  (This pre-dated Von Daniken by quite a long time.)  He then got a
series of letters from a mysterious person known as Carlos Allende.
Allende said that in 1943 the Navy tried to make a ship invisible, but that
something went wrong and the ship momentarily dematerialized, teleported,
and returned.  Part of the crew went insane, and some of them suffered
long-term problems and ended up disappearing permanently, becoming frozen
in space and time, spontaneously combusting, and so on.  For this reason,
Allende wanted to discourage Jessup from trying to figure out the secret of
gravity.  (Jessup was calling for government research into it, thinking it
would save us money in our space program.)

There's more to the story, such as Navy officials duplicating a copy of
Jessup's book annotated by Allende, and Jessup's questionable suicide, but
I don't have time to go into detail on the subject.

The movie was made about 1983, I think, and was supposed to be fiction.  It
had a lot of things that weren't in the original story, such as time
travel.

Sometime in the late 80's, a guy named Al Bielek claims to have remembered
that he had lived through events very similar to the movie, including the
time travel.  He was apparently programmed by the CIA or the aliens or
something to forget about it.  He says that there's an underground military
base on Long Island where time travel experiments are carried out, and John
von Neumann didn't really die but went into hiding for this purpose.  He
also claims to have been a personal assistant to Einstein and Tesla.  And
that's only the relatively tame part!  For example, he says that in about
10 years, judging by his appearance, a past president of the U.S.
Psychotronics Association will go back in time and have his picture taken
with Aleister Crowley.  How does he know this?  Thorne-EMI, the company
that produced the movie, has the picture!

Obviously, Bielek isn't very believable.  Except maybe to the Lear-type
crowd.  I get the impression that he and Cooper stole some of each other's
material, too.



(*)Moore suggests it might have been called "Project Rainbow", but it's not
confirmed.  Bielek talks about "Project Phoenix" but I think he's talking
about the project taking place in the present.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!noring
From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Have There Been Unexplained Daytime Sightings?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 91 15:17:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 18

Hello,

It appears to me that most unexplained UFO sightings have occurred during
the night.  Have there been any interesting and unexplained daytime
sightings?

Jon

--
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | [e-mail] | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 754 Catalina Drive  | Phone : [phone]   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: [phone]   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average
coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina,
nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!violet.berkeley.edu!ph111-bx
From: [e-mail] (;;;;7202)
Newsgroups: alt.stupidity,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Which newsgroup?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Dec 91 05:41:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 8
Xref: ns-mx alt.stupidity:3529 alt.alien.visitors:3613
NNTP-Posting-Host: violet.berkeley.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Casey Barton) writes:
<     I've decided to group my reading according to level of intelligence
<within the group. I'm now trying to decide which one to put last -
<alt.stupidity or alt.alien.visitors. Any suggestions? Any other nominations
<for "last place" contentions?

I'm too lazy to read alt.alien.visitors.  What are some of the highlights
of it's stupidity?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!mel.dit.csiro.au!mineng.dmpe.CSIRO.AU!dmssyd.syd.dms.CSIRO.AU!metro!cluster!swift!peg!mcollinson
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stan Deyo and UFOs Video available
Message-ID: <422800012@peg>
Date: 14 Dec 91 16:20:00 GMT
References: <422800009@peg>
Lines: 23
Nf-ID: #R:peg:422800009:peg:422800012:000:812
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!mcollinson    Dec 14 12:20:00 1991



Topic 32    Stan Deyo & Knights of Templar Vid    Response  1 of  2
manuscript
oz.pagan    10:51 pm  Dec 10, 1991

WARNING!!! FUNDAMENTALISTS' AD
________________________________________________________________
As we (pagans) become more prominent there will be people from
Fundamentalist inspired groups placing ads like the above!!!!!

We are not fooled by their cheap ploy.

Stan Deyo is a Fundamentalist who has written a book called the
"Vindicator Scrolls"... which claims the Earth was only created
a few thousand years ago!!! (Come on now ...get real.)

He also thinks that the Satanists want to take over the world,
via the Illuminati and the Club of Rome.

I would like to suggest that all concerned Pagans send th"unlimvis"
their opinions on Fundamentalist advertising on our special inter-
est Conference...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!zeus.tamu.edu!dwr2560
From: [e-mail] (RING, DAVID WAYNE)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Dec 91 02:33:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:458 sci.physics:15475 sci.skeptic:18532 alt.alien.visitors:3615
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gerald Weiler) writes...
>No, actually, with the right materials, it probably would be possible
>to build scissors that could close this fast. They don't really have
>to be that big, simply close fast. That way, if you take a large pair
>of scissors that close fast enough, the 'point' at which the two
>blades meet will travel down the blades at a rate faster than the
>speed of light. This does not break the theory that 'c' is an absolute

One does not need to use such advanced technology. Just wave the beam of

any laser across the face of the moon. If the beam crosses the diameter of

the moon in about .01 sec the spot will be traveling faster than c. This

can be done easily by hand.

D Ring
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines
Subject: Ovotron Newsletter for Jan-Feb 1992 (49K-LONG)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Dec 91 00:38:52 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 865
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3616 alt.paranormal:3905 talk.religion.newage:8086 sci.skeptic:18533 misc.headlines:19272



DISCLAIMER:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the latest newsletter from the Spirit BBS. It is being
put forth as an informational posting only. If you have *any*
comments,or questions concerning this posting, please feel
free to get into touch with Kortron either by voice or
on his BBS (FIDO Node 1:379/703). His address follows at the
end of this posting (Judith Wells). This is presented as-is.

Note #1: This guy is for real. I've talked to him several times
by voice,been on his BBS and have received many of his physical
newsletters. This is no hoax. Ask and ye shall receive. I encourage
all to get into touch with him *directly* for the voluminous questions
and comments that are SURE to follow this posting :-)

Note #2: To skeptics: There is a video tape referenced in this posting.
I would recommend that you write and send for it for further
critical analysis. I intend to do the same for balance.

Note #3: The names Kortron (Walter Batoo) and Solinus (Judith Wells)
are _Star Names_.

Note #4: Please direct ALL follow-ups to alt.alien.visitors.

-----Begin included text---------------------------------------------


       ________________________________
      |                                |
      |  Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter |
      |  The East Coast Power Point    |
      |     Kortron and Solinus        |
      |    January\February 1992       |
      |     Fido #1:379/703            |
      |  Spirit BBS:1-704-297-5973     |
      |    Voice:1-704-297-2342        |
      |________________________________|


        Greetings Ascending Light Beings.  The last two months were
  very  exciting  as many things "in the works" for  a  long  while
  reached their dates of completion, then activation.  One of these
  events  was the 11:11 on November 11th in which we were  involved
  here on Stone Mountain.  There has been much talk about the 11:11
  opening  of  the doorway for ascension, with November  11,  1991,
  and/or  January 11, 1992, being the dates this event  would  take
  place.   There was some confusion and splitting within our  group
  over the exact time this would occur.  It was difficult for me to
  keep silent about this subject as I was directly involved in  the
  actual  activation.  I didn't want to start a  controversy  which
  might cause the dark lords to focus more closely on what we  were
  doing here.  This in itself would not have troubled us as we feel
  more than protected in our service to the one God, but our direc-
  tives  were to keep silent and not get a controversy  going  over
  these dates, so we followed this directive "to a tee".

       Dan Chesbro of the  Melchizedek  Order never faltered in his
  part  in  this  event as members of his group were  in  Egypt  on
  November  22nd,  the next activation date  following  the  11:11.
  Many other enlightened beings around the world were also partici-
  pating in this great work with Archangel Michael, Melchizedek and
  Metatron which ended on December 3, 1991, with the activation  of
  Metatron.

       After December 3, 1991,  all  other  activations  are Throne
  Energy  activations  and when they are completed on  January  27,
  1992,  a massive change will be in effect.  The  most  pronounced
  changes to date within the shortest time span will have occurred.
  The  result should bring the most doubting of individuals into  a
  profound  knowingness  based on experiencing these  changes.   My
  only advice to the less aware about these changes is:  Be Careful
  What  You Ask For.  THOUGHT CREATES and the time span  to  actual
  manifestation  of thought will become much shorter.   So  realize
  more than ever - You Are Creating Your Reality!

       Here  on Stone Mountain the preparation for the actual 11:11
  activation was a very exciting period of time.  We were told  the
  crystals  we  lacked for the pyramid grid work  were  located  in
  Arkansas and were put aside awaiting our arrival, so a quick trip
  there in mid October was necessary.  Some of the participants  in
  the  drama were not aware of their part until after we  had  been
  there and left.  We made sure these folks were updated by leaving
  enough  information  behind to open their  understanding  of  our
  brief encounter and their role in this drama.

       After the  crystals were  individually wrapped and the  con-
  tainers banded for safe transport back to North Carolina we  took
  advantage  of the opportunity to soak in the hot  springs.   This
  was  wonderfully relaxing.  Adel, now two and a half, was a  real
  trooper who refused to miss out on any aspect of this  adventure.
  We  started  out by adjusting our bodies in a  warm  spring  then
  progressing  to  the hotter tubs.  After a  thorough  soaking  we
  proceeded to the sauna and then a luxurious massage.  Adel wasn't
  too crazy about the sauna part, but thought the "hot wadder"  was
  great and was in no hurry to get out.

       When we were  squeaky  clean,  relaxed and  feeling  good we
  pointed our starship ('73 Chevy van) toward North Carolina  which
  was  over fourteen hours away.  My guides told me we should  take
  shifts  driving  and drive straight through as it  would  be  too
  dangerous to lay over along the way.  We left just in time to  be
  ahead of some very violent weather moving into and through Arkan-
  sas.  As we crossed into Tennessee the big pyramid (cultural arts
  center)  on Mud Island in Memphis greeted us.  It is a  beautiful
  sight to behold!  I kidded Solinus about being upstaged and  that
  we  needed to build a bigger pyramid ourselves - one  that  would
  match this mammoth building sitting on the Tennessee bank of  the
  Mississippi  River.  For some reason I didn't understand she  was
  not particularly amused over the statement.

       After getting through the  maze  of  left  and  right  turns
  around  Memphis my guides said that in order to beat  the  severe
  weather  behind us I needed to travel much faster than the  legal
  speed limit.  I was told to make the van invisible and get going!
  I  learned this neat little trick while an apprentice  Shaman  so
  having done it many times before, it was once again easily accom-
  plished.  Just on the other side of Memphis while traveling at 85
  miles  per  hour we passed a radar speed trap.  I  waved  at  the
  trooper in the clocking vehicle but our van never even moved  the
  indicator which checks for speeding vehicles.  He never looked up
  or  noticed  my waving or the van going by.   Satisfied  we  were
  cloaked  in invisibility my only concern was to maneuver  through
  the  traffic  which was getting ever lighter as we  left  Memphis
  behind.

       Around 3 o'clock in  the  morning  we  were  just outside of
  Nashville and I knew it would be smooth sailing to Knoxville from
  there.   We  were traveling even faster than the  trucks  on  the
  highway  so that meant we were very seldom in the slow lane.   My
  guides  told me there was a spaceship in the area and it was  not
  one  of  ours so to be on my toes!  From that point  on  although
  fatigued I kept a more alert vigil.  To my surprise I noticed  in
  the  rear  view  mirror a truck we had passed a  few  miles  back
  coming  up  behind us in the same lane at a very fast  rate.   My
  guides came in and said the driver was being manipulated by those
  on  the ship.  They told me not to change over to the  slow  lane
  even  though the trucker was closing the distance faster  than  I
  had even anticipated.  My guess was the trucker was doing over  a
  hundred  miles  per hour.  (Remember now we  were  invisible  and
  could  not  be seen.)  When he was within fifty feet  of  ramming
  into the rear of the van my guides shouted, "Do it now!  Get into
  the slow lane."  I immediately moved to the slow lane and let off
  the gas as the huge tractor trailer flew by us on our left.

       While thinking  it  over afterwards I realized the reason my
  guides told me to do this.  Any maneuver on the trucker's part at
  that  speed would have caused his trailer to jack  knife  sending
  him  end over end out of control to his certain death.  By  doing
  as my guides told me there was no way we would have been involved
  in  a  mishap  as  he would be in front  of  us  not  beside  us.
  Throughout  this entire event Solinus and Adel  slept  peacefully
  in the bed at the rear of the van unaware anything was afoot.

       About twenty miles  down  the  road  we  came upon this same
  truck  but  it  appeared to be loosing power.  I  assume  he  had
  pushed  his rig beyond its limits and now had a blown  engine.  A
  short time later a food and gas sign appeared and I was ready  to
  quit  driving  for awhile.  We gassed up, ate and  took  care  of
  necessities then started out again with Solinus behind the wheel.
  Star child Adel quickly fell back into dreamland.  I bid  Solinus
  a good night and moved to the bed with Adel in my arms.  The next
  thing  I  remembered dawn was appearing and Solinus  was  pulling
  over  for gas about twenty miles north of  Knoxville,  Tennessee.
  Now  we  were heading into Virginia and that meant we  were  ever
  closer to the mountains and home.

       I resumed driving  at  this  point  and  watched  the pretty
  sunrise as my "girls" cuddled up warmly to sleep.  As the terrain
  changed  from the endless flat of Tennessee to the majestic  Blue
  Ridge  Mountains my thoughts were of Heaven on Earth, a new  dawn
  for  humanity and a planet based on love.  We arrived  at  Stone-
  crest around seven o'clock in the morning greeted by the  pyramid
  waiting  to  be activated.  We immediately headed  for  our  firm
  mattress,  three tired musketeers returning from a  mission  well
  done.

       I only purchased  the three boxes of crystals which my guid-
  ance told me contained the rest of what was necessary to activate
  the pyramid.  I did not buy three other trays which I really felt
  were  important  to have as our money was not sufficient  to  get
  them.   Solinus had opted not to go with me for "the buy" as  she
  had  already spent the previous day in crystal stores  with  Adel
  and  felt it would be easier for me to concentrate if  they  were
  not  along (aside from the fact that a two year old is much  like
  the  proverbial elephant in a china shop).  After  arriving  home
  and  seeing what I had bought she asked why I hadn't charged  the
  others on a credit card.  My thought was, yes, why didn't I, so I
  immediately called Arkansas and told our contact to ship the rest
  by two day delivery.

       The unpacking  of  these  beauties created a lot of OOOHHH's
  and  AAAHHH's  from those gathered together to see  what  we  had
  brought  back.   There are over 1,500 of the most  beautiful  and
  clear crystals we have ever seen.  Some are huge terminators, one
  of which is quite rare with many points on one end and a  perfect
  single  point on the other.  It is now mounted to  the  grounding
  rod, buried in the ground under the exact center of the  pyramid.
  There  are  many Star of David crystals each having  exactly  six
  points  on all sides.  These beauties were new to me and are  the
  special crystals used as one of the main ingredients in the  many
  leveled grid work.  There are many single points, each distinctly
  different  and  beautiful.  All are clear and brilliant,  each  a
  beauty  in  its own right.  It's impossible to relate to  you  in
  words  what was waiting us to bring back, but believe me  all  of
  them are extremely beautiful, very special and powerful!!!

       Most of these, in  my  opinion,  are  one-of-a-kind gems and
  those  not used in the grids in the on-going activations we  want
  to  make available to you.  We will be happy to send you a  guid-
  ance  selected,  mountain  and pyramid  activated  crystal  (thus
  filled  with  the love vibration) if you are unable to  make  the
  trip  here  to personally choose one.  They range  in  size  from
  small (perfect for personal activation work or healing) to  large
  (showpieces)  and are priced from $20 to $75 depending  upon  the
  quality, size and termination  (both single or double  terminated
  are  available).  A few small Star of David crystals  which  will
  not  be  used in the grids are available on a first  come,  first
  serve  basis and since they are both rare and unusual  they  fall
  into  the  $75 category.  Not only do we feel the  crystals  were
  provided  to us for use and sale but, because we charged a  large
  portion of them on plastic, our hope is to at least pay the  bill
  and perhaps generate more funds for our many projects.

          ( The Activation and Switching of The Grids )

       After obtaining the  crystals  we  only  had  two and a half
  weeks left before our part in the activation.  Much needed to  be
  done and some very important parts still were missing!  We had  a
  ninth  density Star of David Grid to build and install to make  a
  total  of nine layers on the three different levels of the  pyra-
  mid.   Each had to be balanced with the others,  tuned,  grounded
  and  activated with spilt second timing in order to be  one  with
  the activation of the Great Pyramid in Egypt.  Then at that exact
  moment  a  new Earth grid was put in place to  replace  the  old.
  Each part of this activation had to coincide in timing with  what
  was  taking place around the world on each of the new vortex  lay
  line intersection points.

       Steve was guided  to  the  location  of a thirty seven pound
  piece  of  rose quartz that looked like it could be  cut  to  the
  appropriate  dimensions for use on the main power  rod.  Although
  Steve has worked with crystals for many years he did not have the
  saw  to  cut  and slab this enormous chunk of  quartz.   We  were
  really being put to the test now as not only was time running out
  but so were the needed funds.  After quite a search we were  able
  to  obtain  a used saw (which was no small feat as they  are  not
  readily  available) and then the tedious task of cutting,  grind-
  ing, shaping and polishing needed to begin.

       Our group  financial  support virtually stopped for a period
  of  six  weeks.   We were at a loss as to why  and  there  didn't
  appear  to be enough time left to bolster the necessary  support.
  We  were told the slowing of funds was occurring because all  the
  light  groups were being infiltrated by the dark lords  who  were
  spreading  false information to further confuse  individuals  and
  divert support necessary to complete this aspect of the  Mission.
  The  counter plan was implemented and the necessary  contacts  to
  complete our mission were activated to bring in additional  dona-
  tion  money  just  in time.  This plan is  one  that  relies   on
  "banks"  set  up in small accounts that can be activated  in  the
  dream state when dire need arises to complete necessary tasks.

       Once   what   is  happening is understood it is  hoped  that
  false  information will not so easily undermine the  Mission  and
  those  doing this will finally be seen for what they really  are.
  This is one of the main reasons for having an Earth based command
  firmly  set  in place as an information exchange point.   By  ad-
  dressing  it and then confirming the information  available  with
  your own inner guidance, not someone else's idea of what's  actu-
  ally taking place, much confusion can be avoided.

       There was much work yet to do in the pyramid to get prepared
  for the activation.  Special disks that can sustain energy of the
  ninth density had to be cut and placed on the two power rods once
  they were installed.  These discs are made from a plastic materi-
  al  which is harder than Plexiglas and several carbon steel  cut-
  ting  bits broke like pretzels while being used to cut  them.   A
  hole was bored into the granite base under the pyramid where  the
  solid  copper grounding rod and ninth density oscillator  crystal
  are buried in the Earth.  The grounding rod protrudes through the
  exact  center  of  the  first floor of  the  pyramid  and  has  a
  one-of-a-kind  fire  crystal mounted on top of  it.   Since  each
  crystal on the grounding and power rods is different in size  and
  shape  special copper mounts had to be made to hold  them.   Hun-
  dreds of feet of thick copper wire was used to ground each of the
  power rods to the grounding rod buried in the Earth.

       An  eight sided table was placed in the center of the second
  floor to hold the crystal ball which is mounted on the top of the
  energy rod that goes down through the floor into the first  level
  in  alignment  with the grounding rod.  This creates  a  balanced
  Yin/Yang  field  of  energy between the  King's  Chamber  (second
  floor)  and the Queen's Chamber (first floor).  Attached  to  the
  bottom  of this rod is a special double terminated  crystal  that
  radiates energy in a spiral.

       Attached and  centered  exactly forty eight inches above the
  crystal  ball is the double terminated rose quartz crystal  which
  is  mounted on the power rod that extends through the ceiling  of
  the  second floor into the third floor apex area.  Seven Star  of
  David  crystal grids are attached to the power rod and are  tuned
  and  controlled by the twelve inch, perfectly  balanced  male/fe-
  male,  double  terminated crystal on top of the power  rod.   All
  this is aligned from top to bottom within the pyramid and focused
  on  the star beams above.  This was all completed within  seconds
  of  the precise moment that three Merkaba vehicles regulated  and
  switched the grids.  Whew!  Talk  about split second timing!   By
  this  time  we  were  all  energy  high  and  at  the  same  time
  exhausted!!!

       All of this  was done while a film crew ran around document-
  ing it for TV.  Any Questions??  If you want my job after reading
  this  (GRIN)  feel free to ask.  Actually it really went  off  as
  smooth  as could be, with one step leading to the next  in  total
  mass confusion (GRIN).  The last grounding wire was hooked in and
  the fire crystal installed at the exact time the great pyramid in
  Egypt  was  activated.   Once this was  accomplished  twenty-four
  hours  of  ceremony took place with each person  present  knowing
  his/her  part unrehearsed.   The three M's (Melchizedek,  Michael
  and  Metatron)  were  all present, as was  Sananda  whose  energy
  blessed  us  and put the Father's Seal on all  that  took  place.
  Many  ascended  masters were involved and  also  present.   Light
  Falcon stood vigil in the pyramid throughout the night; the Sword
  of Michael brought forth the blue-green ray; and Talligai  evoked
  the blessings of the four kingdoms:  Earth, Air, Fire and  Water.
  The effect of Love was very high throughout this event and every-
  one felt the vibrational changes which took place.

               ( On the Ships in the Grand Hall )

       The  day of the activation was filled with much activity and
  time for some reflection and relaxation that night, then bed time
  came.  I was immediately summoned to the grand hall on the  great
  mother  ship.   I  realized the hall was filled  to  capacity  as
  everyone  present rose from their seats.   There was  a  standing
  ovation   for all involved in the Mission and for the great  deed
  we had accomplished on Earth by activating the new grid.  I'm not
  particularly fond of this type of affair especially if I'm one of
  those  receiving the honor.  I looked diligently for a  place  to
  hide.   None was to be found so my red face probably  glowed  and
  stood out in the crowd that night.  The next day I passed word of
  this  event  on to all who participated in the  activation  here.
  The mood was joyful, everyone was happy that we had completed our
  part  and  all  were pleased.  So above, so  below.  A  Job  Well
  Done!!!!

          ( Documentary of the Activation Aired on TV )

       The TV  Network that  filmed  this  event  was  Telemundo, a
  Spanish station located in Miami that broadcasts around the U.S.,
  Central America and South America.  It was aired at 5:30 P.M.  on
  Friday, November 15th.  The program is called "Acurrio Asi" which
  means  "It Happened Now".  Ray taped it for us via satellite  and
  it is a professional production.  The program is similar in style
  to  "Unsolved  Mysteries"  or "20/20" as  it  highlights  several
  events  during  the half hour show.  Maria,  the  producer,  took
  special  interest  in  this filming  and  although  she  normally
  doesn't  travel with the camera crew she decided not to  be  left
  out of this filming.  They were a jovial bunch we enjoyed  having
  for  the three days of filming and they made it easy to get  used
  to being followed around by a camera.  The spirit of love was  in
  everyone's  hearts throughout the many on-going  work  activities
  and  these  folks politely went about their task of  filming  not
  disturbing  the  work.  Everyone's energy merged in a  spirit  of
  cooperation complimenting each other's special talents that  went
  into the final finished product.


       When we get copies of all the film footage we will see about
  putting it into a presentation you might enjoy.  Maria  mentioned
  it was possible to get a copy of the TV version free of charge by
  requesting it from her station if you send her a blank video tape
  and  return postage.  Her address is:  Maria Leon, 10357  SW  4th
  St.,  Miami, FL  33174.  We love you, Maria, and  appreciate  the
  time  and effort that went into the filming and editing to  docu-
  ment the new world grid activation for Heaven on Earth.

       ( Master Number Activation Schedule for 1991/1992 )

    November 11, 1991 - The 11:11 Activation of ArchAngel Micheal.
    November 22, 1991 - The 11:22 Activation of Melchizedek.
    December 3, 1991 - The 11:33 Activation of Metatron.
    December 14, 1991 - The 11:44 Throne Energies Activation, #1
    December 25, 1991 - The 11:55 Throne Energies Activation, #2
    January 5, 1992 - The 11:66 Throne Energies Activation, #3
    January  16, 1992 - The 11:77  " ( The Big One ) "    , #4
    January  27, 1992 - The 11:88 Throne Energies Activation, #5

       The dates listed above are all based on the master number 11
  and  indicate the accelerated progression of the  activation  and
  the  time span between each increase.  The activations  began  on
  November  11,  1991, and will proceed in 11  day  cycles  through
  January 27, 1992.  As you can see January 11, 1992, was never the
  11:11 activation date as many believe.

  Make no mistake,  1992 will be a year of great and  massive
  changes and will effect everyone and thing on this planet and  in
  this  part  of the Galaxy.  We feel it is important that  you  be
  aware  of these dates so that you can be prepared to  meet  these
  changes.   More  dates will be announced later  on  with  further
  explanations as we become aware of and understand them better.

       Each of the Throne  Energy dates has significance that isn't
  readily  explainable  but each represents a change that  will  be
  noticeable.  January 16, 1992, will be the "big one" we have been
  waiting to take place.  The nature and purpose of each activation
  date  can only be understood through your personal meditation  on
  what they mean.  The reason for this is to avoid erroneous infor-
  mation  coming  from someone else about what is  happening.   You
  will  need to go within and listen!!!  The main  reason  explana-
  tions  are not forth coming is because many of you rely on  other
  people's  input and neglect your own inner guidance.  This  guid-
  ance  contact  is  the only thing you should  be  following,  not
  someone else's idea of what's taking place!

       This is being stressed now to prepare you for what is coming
  and  can  only be understood by your full attention  to  Spirit's
  guidance  from  within.  All other channels  of  information  are
  being infiltrated to cause confusion and to undermine all  under-
  standing  of  the changes to come.  Every area  of  communication
  except  with  Spirit  is now being eroded.  It is  better  to  go
  within  and find out for yourself than to end up  regretting  not
  doing  so  by blindly following another's idea or say so  in  the
  times ahead.  If this is not done you will have only yourself  to
  blame for your neglect in all future experiences.

       In  the next stage every effort will be made to prevent  our
  contacting the larger group as a source of incoming new  informa-
  tion.  This  has  already started on the  computer  networks,  in
  groups  and other sources of public  communication.   Information
  that  is  now getting out is, for the most  part,  untrue.   Your
  inner  guidance is your only uncensored way to be informed  in  a
  truthful way.

       We have tried many  ways  to  form  a bridge and keep infor-
  mation flowing, but now the time has come for your inner communi-
  cation  guidance system to become fully fine tuned through  unin-
  terrupted  daily use of it.  Each of us has known this  time  was
  coming  and  now more than ever before it is time  to  open  this
  contact  and  then use it.  After this is  accomplished  we  will
  become  a  more totally aware group and our  individual  jobs  on
  Earth Assignment can then get done.  We can no longer continue in
  the  ways presently in place which control, distort  and  scatter
  our  combined efforts keeping us from meeting the  best  possible
  end  results.   We  must proceed now with the use  of  our  other
  gifted means of communication.  This applies to ways of  communi-
  cating with each other as well as with Spirit.

               ( What Was Accomplished in 1991? )

       1991  was a year which set the stage for unity and many more
  changes to come.  Many things were done to assure the  harmonious
  affect  of  the rising love energies reaching, bathing  and  then
  changing this planet.  For the most part all was accomplished  as
  planned by the many councils working together for this to  become
  reality.  In our part as a headquarters base our combined efforts
  went  around  the  world via computer, TV and  a  major  magazine
  article.   We touched all points on the globe to a degree we  are
  not even aware of yet.  You can bet that as this progresses  much
  more  unity will occur World wide in our family of Light here  to
  create Heaven on Earth.

       We have been  given  directives beyond what we felt was  our
  capacity  to do but found ourselves achieving all the  things  in
  this  new energy that easily overcame all obstacles.   Each  step
  accomplished  showed  us we could do things beyond what  even  we
  believed  or thought we could do.  We faced fears we didn't  even
  know  we  had and became more of what we really  are  versus  the
  limited  beings we were.  All experiences expanded  our  thinking
  into a more "macro" way of seeing and then doing.


       We  are now greatly excited anticipating our total  personal
  power as new life springs forth on a planet in accelerated  ener-
  gy.   All the babies created in this energy will make what we  do
  seem  trivial.   They  will know what we have  had  to  remember.
  These new ones will show us the way as they do things beyond  our
  thinking, ideas and efforts.  Eventually the desired effect  will
  be a planet in Peace, Love and Harmony operating in the frequency
  of love.

       Many will see and realize the importance of the children  as
  they  ban together to create the new world.  We,  the  foundation
  builders,  must  when the time arrives step aside and  give  them
  complete  freedom  to get their parts  and  contributions  going.
  This is already taking place all around the world.  I'm  speaking
  of mere babes with astounding abilities who will shine way beyond
  their years in what they can do.

       Now  is the time for doing, for putting into  practice  what
  you are perfectly capable of accomplishing.  Set doubt and  fears
  aside,  create your own positive reality and then be  responsible
  for  it.  As Orvotron grows into a world network the need  for  a
  constant  support  base  increases.  We are  presently  facing  a
  dilemma  in  our main computer which is in operation 24  hours  a
  day.  It runs the world net, bulletin board service,  houses  all
  the  information files and produces the newsletter, etc.  Now  it
  is  about to crash.  Everything we are doing to network  and  get
  information  out to you will stop if the computer goes down.   We
  do  not have the reserve funds to fix it mainly because a lot  of
  promised  support never arrived.  This is exactly what  the  dark
  lords  want and now it's up to you and Spirit.  We can only  tell
  you the need is now here.

       As of this  writing I'm  even leery of trying to do a backup
  of any new data files because I may erase much of what is already
  backed  up in trying to save files we can no longer see  or  know
  for sure if they are there.  This includes all the latest updates
  necessary to access the world networks which I have spent  count-
  less hours to make functional.  So, this may be our last newslet-
  ter  and the end of our efforts to network the world, unless  the
  needed support comes through soon.  Although we pulled the  acti-
  vation off we are broke and in debt from that effort.  We operate
  our services on your gifted support.  Our hope is that 1992  will
  be  a year of continued support with a little reserve funding  on
  hand.   We've accomplished a lot but  maintaining and  adding  to
  what we have begun is imperative.  It All rests on you!

       I  want to personally thank all of you who supported  us  in
  1991.   We sincerely hope this is only the beginning of  an  ever
  growing group of doers who are creating Heaven on Earth.  We  all
  are  members  of the emerging family of God here  to  set  things
  straight  once and for all.   The changes are now coming so  fast
  that  many will have trouble keeping up.  All of us now hold  the
  sword of change in our hearts with our thoughts and our deeds  to
  create  a  new world filled with peace, love  and  harmony.   God
  Bless You All.

                  ( What Now Needs To Be Done )

       It is  becoming ever more apparent to us that the Creator in
  his Divine Plan has a plan for each of us.  What has miraculously
  transpired  in the last year has given us a new understanding  of
  our efforts on Earth Assignment which are now merging on a world-
  wide  level.  What this means is there is  something  transpiring
  that  when fully understood will bring all peoples of  all  lands
  together in the mission of creating a world which is fully  oper-
  ating on the Love vibration in peace, love and harmony.

       When  this is in place all entities arriving or already here
  will have no choice but to change into beings of the faster, love
  frequency.  The negative force which has had its grip on Earth no
  longer  has a bonding effect on the planet.  Those arriving  will
  find  it impossible to resist the love force and will find  them-
  selves overwhelmed and in a bad way if they try to operate within
  the  old life styles.  Resistance internally is already  breaking
  down  in all of these entities and they too will change  as  will
  all  here  on Earth as the vibration of Love is about to  go  off
  scale.

       In my way of thinking,  a job  half  done is  no job at all.
  Much  work  remains in order to finish the pyramid to make  it  a
  usable  building  in the months to come.  It is  intended  to  be
  apoint  for  activation to your full potentials on  an  awakening
  planet.   This  will become a reality as we break away  from  the
  control  of the many negative factors that soon will  not  exist.
  As  the new awareness dawns your thoughts will then  create  what
  you need in order to experience life in the new vibration.

       Now we need to  finish all we have started as new things are
  being  conceived directly ahead of us as our consciousness  opens
  and expands to them.  Remember Sananda's words, "You will do even
  greater works than I".  We are that energy returning to Earth  in
  ever  growing numbers and are beginning to realize our  forgotten
  but  now activated potentials which will create  positive  change
  for  a planet based on Love.  No matter what changes  occur  none
  should  be felt with fear or doom.  Your inner guidance  is  your
  protection.  LISTEN to this and you will weather all changes.

                  ( The Asteroid Updated )

       Suppose your spaceship operated by a drive system whereby it
  accelerated or slowed by the monitoring of different frequencies,
  much  like turning the dial on a radio.  Suppose the  frequencies
  suddenly changed to frequencies which were much above the operat-
  ing system regulating the power source.  In order to use the  new
  frequencies a completely new system would have to be designed and
  adjustments  made and this could happen only if you had  all  the
  necessary know how, plans and parts to create the needed  changes
  while being way out in space.

       Sound like a nightmare?   Well  this is actually the reality
  now  being dealt with by the Dracos on the big  asteroid  (space-
  ship).  This may come as a surprise to you but your donations and
  support helped to make the changes which created this  situation.
  What took place in the 11:11 activation actually raised the Solar
  grid  into a much higher frequency.  Whether you put a few  bucks
  in  an  envelope, lent a helping hand or focused  your  positive,
  creative thoughts toward the process your support was  essential.
  You  did  what even our government did not know how to  do.   You
  stopped the Dracos from coming into a world controlled by a lower
  frequency,  a  place  easily harvested.  There was  no  need  for
  missiles as a means to destroy the asteroid.

       This  does not mean the asteroid is totally inoperative, but
  it does mean they will now be exposed to a higher frequency  when
  they  arrive,  one which will alter their consciousness  too  and
  thus  their thoughts and ideas toward different life  forms.   So
  now  you  are  beginning to see how love  conquers  all.   Forced
  domination  based on fear and acts of violence  was  unnecessary.
  Acts of love creating balance was the answer.  If events had been
  allowed  to unfold without the influence of the higher  vibration
  then  Earth would have been taken over by these  Reptilians  with
  little concern for her inhabitants.

       You may not  know  or  have  considered that on the asteroid
  there are also Light Beings in Draco form.  Just as we here to do
  on  Earth, these beings will show them how to adjust to the  fre-
  quency rises which are now unavoidable.  What a plan!  Looks like
  the  Father is getting his directive to "bring my children  home"
  met.   This may be the end of the rebellion that went on  in  the
  fringe  universes for hundreds of millions of  years.   Everyone,
  whether   in  rebellion  or not, just might evolve  back  to  the
  harmony of Love.

       Every form of Extraterrestrial and Earth creature has within
  its ranks light bearers who are there to show them the way  home.
  So,  you  see, the best laid plans of mice and men  do  not  even
  approach the beauty of those serving in the Divine Plan.  In  the
  Divine  Plan everything is brought to its Divine essence  through
  nonviolent  means.  Granted those resisting these energy  changes
  will  for a time play their games of domination in a  last  ditch
  effort  to shore up their eroding influence and control  on  this
  planet.  This will go on for awhile, but as more and more  awaken
  their control will dissipate because their power rests in  others
  giving  their  power away to them.  By regaining  our  individual
  personal  power we will realize all our needs can be met  through
  our own creative thoughts and actions.

       There will be  many  forerunners  of change  as examples  to
  others  who will then see and follow suit.  All of this  is  just
  ahead  of us.  The times to come will seem like the era of  mira-
  cles  until  all understand thought creates everything  in  their
  reality.  In one way or another all of us are already  experienc-
  ing  this  in our daily lives.  For those who resist  change  and
  have  negative  thoughts this will mean  very  dramatic  negative
  experiences.   Others, who understand these principles and  prac-
  tice  positive thinking, will be the examples of  an  alternative
  way of thinking for others.

       Those  wishing  to  maintain control of  the  masses who are
  not yet aware of how this works will employ every means  possible
  to  maintain  and keep others under their control.  But  as  more
  understanding  surfaces these plots will be ignored by those  who
  realize how thought creates.  Few, if any, will even give them  a
  thought and eventually even they will see what is really going on
  and the futility of control or domination of others.  This is the
  last time on Earth anyone can or will be controlled by others.

  In the last newsletter we erroneous stated that the  aster-
  oid  was  nearing Saturn.  We meant to say that it  is  way  past
  Saturn  and now nearing Mars.  We apologize for our  mistake  and
  hope it did not add any confusion to what is already out there.

                      ( Earth Changes )

       In our last  letter  we said  the possibility of tidal waves
  was  ever increasing.  Three days after the last letter went  out
  several people called stating that tidal waves had hit the  lower
  east  coast  of Florida.  These waves came in from  an  otherwise
  calm  ocean to splash over bridges and push sand  several  blocks
  inland.   During the activations to come this will be  ever  more
  possible as the changes effect everything in and on the planet.

       We consider the asteroid a potential to create Earth changes
  that will effect life.  There was a news flash that was  probably
  noticed  by only a few about plans to implement an  asteroid  de-
  fense  system  around Earth.  The reason given was the  one  that
  stuck Siberia in the 1920's and the need for detection of smaller
  ones heading toward Earth.  You can believe what you want but our
  past  newsletters  told you why this was being planned  and  what
  would happen if nuclear weapons were used in space.

       Earthquakes will increase  as the instabilities in the crust
  of  Earth  are being massively bombarded with energies  ever  in-
  creasing.   However  the grid work has significantly  turned  the
  tide on total massive crust changes.  Some movement which will be
  considered severe will be felt world wide as great areas of Earth
  still need cleansing in some manner.

       Society will change  drastically  in  its  structured way of
  doing  things and this too will effect our lives to a  great  de-
  gree.  Other means to back up your needs should now be considered
  as  these social structures shudder, shake and fall to  create  a
  void until the restabilization process can begin.  Any rebuilding
  or  restructuring will be confused by a period of potential  loss
  of  easily assessable food and fuels.  Be prepared is  the  motto
  here.

       Many of us are  feeling  great changes on the wind.  Weather
  as  a whole will go through mood changes which are hard  to  pre-
  dict.  When the final energy rises hit then merge with Earth  you
  can expect unusual periods of darkness with high wind  velocities
  coming from out of nowhere.  These could last for days.  This  is
  especially true when the polarities switch creating weird weather
  patterns causing electrical storms and high winds.


               ( The Pyramid - What Is It For? )

       Besides being a place to  meditate  in  very  high energy, a
  place  to communicate with Spirit, a place to be healed, a  place
  to awaken in communion and do great things with combined  energy,
  the pyramid was designed to also be a school, a place for  teach-
  ers and students alike to gather together to learn.

       Now is the time to plan such  activities for 1992 and we ask
  your help in this endeavor.  If you have or know someone who  has
  special gifts to share with others in this capacity please get in
  touch  with  us.  We are especially looking for  those  who  will
  teach  others how to help themselves.  Healers, psychics and  the
  like are wonderful, but we feel it is important for us to grow as
  rapidly as possible and this can only be done effectively through
  participation, not by just listening but not actually doing.

       Please realize that the pyramid is still a construction site
  and that much work has yet to be done.  Although we will  curtail
  such  activity while teaching is occurring it may mean that  such
  details as proper seating or heating or luxurious conditions  may
  not  be available.  We are anxious to use this building for  many
  purposes and know your support is essential.
                    Peace and Love,
                      Kortron

                     ( Sanctuary )

       The word  change  implies  action, be it physical, mental or
  emotional.  The ramifications of change are endless but for those
  of us who are still carrying around bodies it is really important
  to  know  we are now experiencing physical changes on  an  atomic
  level.   We can resist if we want, but basically there's not  one
  thing  we  can  do to stop it.  Our very  cellular  structure  is
  changing as is our conscious awareness and each of us must  adapt
  as a result.

       This is where resistance  to  change  can  have  an  effect.
  Depending  upon our individual awareness, our  personalities  and
  the  integration of the two each of us will react differently  as
  we  adjust  to these changes within and without.   By  stubbornly
  refusing   or  otherwise  denying  change  we  are  impeding  its
  progress.   If  we can't stop the changes on the  physical  level
  perhaps  we  aren't suppose to try to stop them on  an  awareness
  level either.

       The  awareness changes will occur regardless of  whether  or
  not we try to exert control over them.  It is purely a matter  of
  opening  up  and allowing then eventually  our  knowingness  will
  change  too.  Once we do this then we can then relax and take  it
  as  it  comes.  We can be open and receptive  allowing  our  con-
  sciousness to adjust simultaneously with our cellular changes; or
  we  can react with great resistance in an effort to control  what
  we  ultimately  can't restrain; or we can choose to  inhibit  the
  process  in a myriad of ways in between the two extremes.  It  is
  up to us.

       Meanwhile,  everyone is changing and adapting, reacting  and
  adjusting  too.   If they are having a hard time  allowing  these
  changes  in  themselves you can bet they won't  be  too  gracious
  about  what  ever you're going through.  Our  challenge  at  this
  point is to allow ourselves and those around us to just BE.  This
  may mean we will need to recognize areas in which we are  expect-
  ing  or demanding another's attention, wanting them to do for  us
  what  we  are perfectly capable of doing for ourselves.   By  re-
  claiming  our autonomy others will then have time to  better  re-
  claim  theirs.   By  taking our personal  power  back  we  become
  stronger, less apt to try to control others or to allow others to
  control us.

       This may sound as though ultimately we might all be  running
  around  acting quite independently, needing no one else,  but  in
  actuality,  what will occur is a blending of our individual  tal-
  ents  and skills for the good of ALL.  Each entity in  being  the
  best he/she can be will have more to share and will be happier to
  do  so.  As we become less limited we will be less  self-serving,
  have far more to contribute and more energy and time to do so.

       Just before  the activation  on  November 11, 1991, I became
  aware  that I was consciously practicing returning to my  Center,
  my  Sanctuary, that place where I feel the most calm,  my  secret
  place when going gets rough.  I'm learning how to BE the Center -
  the eye of the hurricane - for that is what we must be for others
  in the future.  I also believe that is where we are now.  We  are
  in the calm center waiting for the storm to reverse direction and
  then come on just as strong again.   The eye of a hurricane is an
  ideal time to pick up the trash that has blown around, batten the
  hatches down tighter and generally tie up loose ends.  My "think-
  ing"  it  is  important for me to stay centered  is  changing  to
  KNOWING  that  I must BE during the times ahead.  I  must  change
  now, adjust now, adapt now in order to be truly prepared for  our
  future.

       To  answer the question, '"Do you think . . . do  you  think
  people ever learn anything?"' posed at the conclusion of  Stephen
  King's  The  Stand,  I answer, Yes.  They do.  But  there  is  no
  better  time  to LEARN than during a change to the  frequency  of
  LOVE.   In with THE LIGHT.  Out with the Darkness.  It's time  my
  dear Entities, for the Quantum Leap for which we've been  prepar-
  ing  for so long.  We are on the verge of the  transformation  of
  ourselves  and our planet.  It is the next step toward  Wholeness
  on  our path to Holiness.  Let us be receptive to change and  act
  accordingly.
                  With Love in the Light,
                      I AM SolinUS

          ( Subscription and Log-On Information )

       We are pleased  to  send  a "Love Copy" of the newsletter to
  anyone  you  think will be interested.  Just pass  your  friend's
  name and address on to us and we will mail out the current  issue
  compliments  of you.  Back issues contain much information  which
  is  still relevant and may provide some clarity on subjects  dis-
  cussed in subsequent  newsletters.  Love donations (which  should
  be  made payable to Judith A. Wells) are greatly appreciated  and
  go to Spirit's work to create Heaven on  Earth.

       A subscription also entitles you to log-on the Spirit Bulle-
  tin  Board Service, a computer/modem system with files on  alter-
  nate  energy, UFO/extraterrestrial happenings, political,  scien-
  tific  and  medical  information and much more.   The  files  are
  updated frequently and we encourage you to use and contribute  to
  this "library at your fingertips".  You may access this  informa-
  tion through the HQ bulletin board or the Nodes listed below:

 *East Coast HQ     Lady Cmdr. Laea     Cmdr. J.
  Spirit BBS        Spirit BBS          The Mother Ship
  Vilas, NC         Nashville, TN       Holiday, FL
  1-704-297-5973    1-615-781-2118      1-813-938-1770
  24 Hours          7 PM to 7 AM

       For a year's subscription  (six  bimonthly  issues) and user
  status  on  Spirit BBS please send $30.00 (USA)  or  $40.00  (all
  other  countries) in check or money order (no cash  please)  made
  payable to:

                 Judith A. Wells
                Route 2, Box 309B
                 Vilas, NC  28692
                  704-297-2342

--* EOF *--

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Info: BERLINER  SIGHTING  REPORT  CLASSIFICATIONS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Dec 91 00:43:04 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 75
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3617 alt.conspiracy:9335 sci.skeptic:18534


This came from The Frontier BBS whose sysop is Jerry Woody. This
is the Don Berliner UFO sighting classification index.

----Begin included text---------------------------------------------



#############################################################################


                BERLINER  SIGHTING  REPORT  CLASSIFICATIONS
               _____________________________________________

This is a two-part classification, with an escalating grade from one to ten
within each.  The "Strangeness Scale" expands on the HYNEK divisions, most
notably adding "Night Object" as distinguished from HYNEK's nocturnal light
and daylight disc; separating close encounters of the first kind into night
and daylight; dividing CE-2's into "ambiguous" (e.g. landing trace without an
aerial object report) and "unambiguous"; and separating CE-3's into observa-
tion only, occupant reaction and meaningful communication.

The BERLINER "Creditability Scale" ranks cases by the number and observation-
al expertise of the witness(es) or, as more highly rated, by the device to
verify the observation  (radar, still photo, movie/videotape and live TV).

Preliminary evaluations rely on the BERLINER gradings to determine the nature
of the event as described by the witness(es).  See the March, 1987 issue of
the "Journal" for Mr. Berliner's explanation of this grading method.
=============================================================================

BERLINER - __________


Strangeness Scale:                        Creditability Scale:
_________________                         ___________________

0 - Identified as a known object/         0 - Witness(es) lacking
    phenomenon or a report lacking            believability
    clear UFO content
                                          1 - Single average witness
1 - Night light, no apparent object
                                          2 - Multiple average witness
3 - Daylight object seen at a distance
                                          3 - Single exceptional witness
4 - Night light close encounter of
    the FIRST Kind.                       4 - Multiple exceptional witnesses

5 - Daylight CE-I                         5 - Radar/visual observation

6 - Ambiguous CE-II                       6 - Still photo(s) by amateur

7 - Unambiguous CE-II                     7 - Still photo(s) by professional

8 - CE-III                                8 - Movie/videotape by amateur

9 - CE-III with occupant reaction         9 - Movie/videotape by professional
    to witness.
                                         10 - Live television
10 - CE-III with meaningful
    communication.


#############################################################################

--* EOF *--

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Where is Orvotron?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 91 06:32:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 9

Maybe they're too busy preparing for the 11:11 thing to produce
newsletters.  (The beauty of this theory is that it could be right even if
the 11:11 theory is wrong!)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ovotron Mewsletter Jan-Feb 1992
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Dec 91 13:28:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 15

Regarding the information/channeling by Ovtron, I thought
a very interesting and profound statement in there was:

"Allow ourselvesand those around us to just BE."

When we begin to accept people, exactly as they ARE, instead of
how WE think THEY SHOULD BE....(for us)...there may be a lot
more peace on earth...

Kathy

A person's consecration is revealed by the choices he or
she makes in life.

    --Richard Moss, M.D.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!spcvxb.spc.edu!4maccotta_lu
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Polar shift and Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Dec 91 00:05:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: St. Peter's College, US
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]>, ** Sender Unknown ** writes:
> Does anyone know if the coming of the aliens(Talked about on this newsgroup)
> that are supposed to come like around 1996, have anything to do with the
> shift of the poles of the earth(supposed to happen in 2000).  If there was a
> large asteroid that came into orbit around Earth(more talk from a.a.vis),
> would that be of enough mass to help change the poles of the earth? I guess
> it would depend on size and composure of the asteriod, but would it be
> possible?
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Aaron Anderer, System Operator                [e-mail]
> SPECTROX SYSTEMS [phone]              szebra!spectrx!system
> "Guess who's coming to dinner" -Chekov Star Trek VI


What would a large asteroid have to do with the shifting of the poles on our
planet?  And besides, who ever said that the poles are going to shift in the
year 2000?  I'd like to have more information about that.


JKJ
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!jlpicard
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 91 16:13:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3621 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:461

[e-mail] (Bill Case) writes:
...
>                                  I suppose (setting myself up for more
> abuse),  that it's better terminology to say that the quantum wave collapses
> for both particles when one is measured,  regardless of the distance
> between them.  This is mind blowing,  since the test involved polarized
> glass and implied that the spin of a particle light years away is not
> really defined until its twin particle is measure.  In effect, we know
> they have mirrored spins,  but the spin of particle A is defined only
> when its twin particle B is measured.  In effect,  the reality of one
> point in space is determined when the reality of another point in space
> revealed (presented) by measurement,  cauing a collapse of the quantum
> wave of possible outcomes.

So, is there any way that this effect could be harnessed to
build an FTL communicator (or ansible, if you prefer :-)?

Craig
-- "She keeps a Moet et Chandon   Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  In her pretty cabinet.              Internet: [e-mail] --
--  'Let them eat cake' she says      Austin: [e-mail] --
--  Just like Marie Antoinette".                    VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!seas.smu.edu!utacfd.uta.edu!trsvax!rwsys!jassys!egsner!sdf!jhalpin
From: [e-mail] (Joe Halpin)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 14:15:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Super Dimensional Fortress BBS, Dallas TX
Lines: 13
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:462 sci.skeptic:18542 alt.alien.visitors:3622 alt.config:5607

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joel Williamson) writes:
>The original question remains unanswered: Is it possible to travel
>backward in time?  Only answers posted before this article is submitted
>will be regarded as authentic.
>
>Joel Williamson

It is, in fact possible to travel backwards in time. As a matter of fact,
a symposium on this subject is going to be held two weeks ago. This will
be posted then, although we haven't got the time bug worked out in rn yet,
so the postmark will be incorrect.

Joe Halpin
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!hri.com!ukma!diaz
From: [e-mail] (Christopher S. Diaz)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Firsthand account
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 04:01:45 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Lines: 27

An experience that happened to me when I was little...
Time : May of '79 or '80
Place: Forest in western KY
What happened:
    Boy scout campout... night was cold and very clear.  Looked
at the sky for constellations and saw an object that looked like a
star moving across the sky at a fairly fast rate.  It had the brightness
and size of the average star that night.  It was white in color and did
not blink, so I dismissed it as any plane light; I don't think it
flickered like a star, but it was moving too fast for me to be sure.
    It moved straight overhead across the sky.  I noticed it when
it was about 60 degrees from one horizon and watched it until it
reached the opposite horizon.  The event took about 2 minutes max.
I never heard any noise from it (the forest was very quiet).  Someone
said it was a satellite, but even at that age I thought that the object
had to be of considerable size to be seen that clearly.  Someone else
suggested that it was an asteroid or shooting-star, but I never saw
any tail from it - it appeared as a distinct dot, and like I said,
wouldn't it have to be of considerable size to be seen that clearly?

    Any comments or insight would be appreciated.

Happy Holidays,

Chris

[e-mail]  [e-mail]  {uunet,etc.}!ukma!diaz
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!ucbvax!mtxinu!rtech!ingres!kevinq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hidden Aliens???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 91 00:50:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Nancy Bulinski) inquires, ala the 'Sun':

>Someone told me alittle of a bizzare story of alien bodies
>being hidden by government authorities at some military
>installation out west YEARS ago... maybe 50 years?

Yeah, Nancy, it's true.  They captured a couple shiploads of would-be
invaders, froze  'em, and have been supplying school and military cafeterias
ever since...

(well, it makes 'bout as much sense as most of the other stuff posted here!)


kbq


--
Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]
                                    | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com
My opinions are my own.  Should you think otherwise, think again.
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From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Firsthand account
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 05:28:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Christopher S.
Diaz) says:
>   Any comments or insights will be appreciated

That really does sound like a satellite.  However, I suggest you prove this
to yourself if you have never seen one before rather than take my word for
it.  Go out and relaxedly stargaze for at least an hour on a clear moonless
night.  You are almost guaranteed to see one and then you can determine
whether you think the original object was a satellite or not.

In my own experience, I have seen many satellites including several
sightings of Skylab in my early years.  The most impressive occurred
in the middle of the day in July of 1974 when a weird atmospheric
effect made it appear to be only a thousand or so feet above me.
I was in the presence of two physicists.  They thought it was a really
neat effect.  Occasionally, I see very small shiny metallic objects
high in the sky in the daytime.  I assume these are satellites too.
If not, I better buy a camera! :-)

Scott
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines
Subject: Re: Ovotron Newsletter for Jan-Feb 1992 (49K-LONG)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 91 12:22:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3626 alt.paranormal:3912 talk.religion.newage:8096 sci.skeptic:18546 misc.headlines:19274

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:

<Note #1: This guy is for real. I've talked to him several times
<by voice,been on his BBS and have received many of his physical
<newsletters. This is no hoax.

What talking to him might indicate is that the guy is *real* (as opposed
to being fictional), but it doesn't say whether he is *for real* or not.

<Note #2: To skeptics: There is a video tape referenced in this posting.
<I would recommend that you write and send for it for further
<critical analysis. I intend to do the same for balance.

I read the article, it tells you the tape was made with lots of love
but not what one will see on it.

<  The main  reason  explana-
<  tions  are not forth coming is because many of you rely on  other
<  people's  input and neglect your own inner guidance.

The reason for this is so that anything that happens to happen can be
considered to be a result of the activities of this group.  If
something in particular was predicted ...

<  Every area  of  communication except  with  Spirit  is now being eroded.

Accept no substitutes!  Group X had more cavities in their crystals.

<       When  this is in place all entities arriving or already here
<  will have no choice but to change into beings of the faster, love
<  frequency.

It ain't the meat, it's the motion!

<  Love donations (which  should
<  be  made payable to Judith A. Wells) are greatly appreciated

You mean she can't cash checks made out to her Star Name?  She should
try a different bank, one with better intergalactic business connections.
--
I'll leave you with this saying:
I'm using my X-RAY VISION to obtain a rare glimpse of the
 INNER WORKINGS of this POTATO!!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews
From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 91 08:29:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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In a message to All <12 Dec 91 12:20> Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS wrote:

 RRM(> From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
 RRM(> Date: 12 Dec 91 00:19:39 GMT
 RRM(> Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles
 RRM(> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 RRM(> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories

 RRM(> Funny how the PC crowd never mentions that the
 RRM(> Aztecs were into stuff like _human_sacrifice_.

Yeah, but the Aztecs are among History's Victims!  They're entitled!!

Our new, deeper understanding of advanced civilizations like the Aztec can only enhance your humanity, and mine too.  I do hope you agree.  It's okay if you don't, though -- then I'll be able to cut your heart out so the sun will rise tomorrow.

Nothing personal, it's just History.  :-)

Death to PC!

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Phobos Photos
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 91 08:40:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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In a message to All <12 Dec 91 12:20> Csn0441 wrote:

 Cs> From: [e-mail] (Csn0441)
 Cs> Date: 12 Dec 91 06:05:23 GMT
 Cs> Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services
 Cs> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 Cs> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 Cs> In article <[e-mail]>
 Cs> [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber) writes:
 >>
 >>visible from Earth, It would hardly require a probe to see, unless it
 >>were very dark.  In which case, the probe may not have even be able to
 >>see it.

 Cs> I haven't seen the picture, but since the probe was in the vicinity of
 Cs> Mars and Phobos, probably directing it's cameras toward one or the other,
 Cs> it would only make sense that the object was silhouetted against the
 Cs> planet/moon.   From the Earth's viewpoint, it would likely not be in
 Cs> a favorable viewing position, and in any case it would be difficult to
 Cs> see such a moving object unless you knew exactly where and when to look.
 Cs> You may have a point if the object is in a stable position/orbit.

One very interesting development is the news that the Phobos image was made in Infrared -- thus the possibility that the object photographed was cloaked somehow and only visible in the IR spectrum.

Best,
  Clark


 Cs> --- ConfMail V4.00
 Cs> * Origin: Paranet(sm) - The world's leading UFO Investigative

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pious Aztec Frauds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 91 20:01:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 28

In a message to All <13 Dec 91 12:16> Scott Campbell Mfg QIE 4- wrote:

 SCM4> From: [e-mail] (Scott Campbell Mfg QIE 4-6778)
 SCM4> Date: 13 Dec 91 00:02:34 GMT
 SCM4> Organization: GE Medical Systems, Magnetic Resonance
 SCM4> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 SCM4> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 SCM4> what's a few (thousand) sacrifices a year, how would you like to be the
 SCM4> first one? ...

Or the *last* one???  How depressing...

 SCM4> ...  Its easy to be the one doing the cutting, but put the shoe
 SCM4> on the other foot

Yeah.  Actually, the Aztecs' colorful religious practices did catch up with them.  They worshipped Quetzacoatl, winged serpent, God of the ***Oppressed***.  The Aztecs' conquered neighbors who provided the dozens of daily sacrifice victims obviously felt *considerably* more oppressed than their Aztec conquerors, as you'd expect.

When Cortes showed up, every Indian nation from the Yucatan to the Maya flocked to his banner and helped him -- they led him directly to Tenochtitlan to meet Montezuma!  Poetic justice.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Jerry Clark/Jacques Vallee/Revelations
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 02:05:00 GMT
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 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from Michael Corbin
 * Originally dated 12-15-91 10:48

Recently, Jacques Vallee published his latest book, Revelations.  Sure to
create a stir within the ufological community, Jerry Clark, editor of the IUR,
reviewed Jacques' book.  Below, we have reprinted the article Jerry wrote, and
following this, we have reprinted a rebuttal which Jacques has provided.

Editorial

SOMEBODY MUST BE BEHIND IT

Reprinted  with  permission  of the IUR  to  ParaNet  Information
Service.  (C) 1991 by the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO  Studies,
2457 West Peterson Avenue, Chicago, Illinois  60659.  All  Rights
Reserved.

From September/October 1991, Volume 16, Number 5.

On  September  7 and 8, at a conference in Sydney,  Australia,  I
delivered a two-part lecture which dealt in part with  conspiracy
theories  in  historical  and current ufology.  After  the  first
lecture  a  woman  approached me to say that she  would  have  to
listen  to the second before deciding whether or not I am  a  CIA
agent. In the middle of that final lecture, as I was making light
of  Milton  William  Cooper's  leave-your-brains-at-the-door-and-
believe  yarns  about a secret government and its  alliance  with
malevolent  extraterrestrials,  a  man  in  the  audience   began
shouting and demanding that I shut up.
   Another  lecturer,  our  old friend Bill  Chalker,  was  asked
during  the  question-and-answer session if it was true  that  he
works  for the CIA. I thought this was pretty funny, but  Chalker
was not amused. He told me later that the charge was being  made,
indeed  had even been published, by Australia's Cooperists;  what
concerned  him was the possibility that witnesses in  future  UFO
cases might hear of it and refuse to speak with him--certainly  a
legitimate concern.
   Conspiracy  delirium  has  afflicted  Australia,  though   the
illness seems to have been contracted by exposure, I am sorry  to
say, to my own country. It's not just that the writings of Cooper
and John Lear circulate widely within the New Age community,  but
an expatriate American who claims to be an "escapee from the CIA"
(as someone described him to me) feeds the paranoia with his  own
stories,   for  which  as  always  no  supporting   evidence   is
forthcoming.  In  our time it is secret documents one  has  seen,
rather  than Space Brothers one has met, that comprise the  stuff
of fantasies and hoaxes.
   Not, of course, that conspiracy obsessions are ufodom's alone.
Not by a long shot. As a news junkie I wake up every morning  and
switch on cable television's C-Span, which hosts a show on  which
politicians, officials, pundits, and journalists take calls  from
viewers. The subject, of course, is never UFOs, but on some  days
as many as one caller in three seems to subscribe to some variety
of conspiracy theory. Now that Communism, happily, is fading from
the  world  scene and so, incidentally, from a  leading  role  in
conspiratorial scenarios, the principal suspects have become  the
CIA (the focus of all evil in the solar system, as we all  know),
"the  media"  (believed to be a monolithic entity  with,  in  one
caller's  words,  a  "definite agenda"-which is  to  promote  the
interests  of, depending on who's on the phone, the right or  the
left  end  of the political spectrum), and the Israelis  (or,  as
some callers unsubtly express it, thereby tipping us off to their
real views, "the Jews").
   I  happened  to  remark  on  the  peculiar  proliferation   of
conspiracy beliefs in a conversation with Barry Williams and  Tim
Mendham, two genial representatives of Australian Skeptics,  down
under's  equivalent of CSICOP. Affecting a darkly  conspiratorial
expression,  Mendham  declared,  "Somebody must  be  behind  it!"
Mendham's  wisecrack  came back to me as I  was  reading  Jacques
Vallee's  new  Revelations:  Alien Contact  and  Human  Deception
(Ballantine Books), the ultimate conspiracy book. Vallee's thesis
can  be  summed up thus: Conspirators  are  inventing  conspiracy
theories to mask the real conspiracy.
   Revelations  is a sequel to Vallee's 1979 book  Messengers  of
Deception,  which proposed that a shadowy group  of  intelligence
operatives  is  manipulating UFO beliefs and creating  phony  UFO
encounters  in  an effort to direct  societal  consciousness.  An
early,  less elaborate version of this notion was  circulated  in
the  1950s  and  1960s by a  former  government  scientist,  Leon
Davidson.   Davidson  thought  that   CIA   psychological-warfare
specialists posing as space people had fooled George Adamski  and
other  contactees. In Messengers Vallee advances essentially  the
same  idea,  though  without  crediting  Davidson;  also,  unlike
Davidson,  he believes that a real UFO phenomenon,  supernatural,
perhaps  unknowable, but certainly not  extraterrestrial,  exists
beyond the manipulation.
   In  common  with  his other works of  the  last  two  decades,
Revelations is an interesting book even if it is not a good  one.
Vallee is no profound thinker, but no one would deny that he is a
first-rate storyteller. Anyone who enjoys tales from the fringes-
and  who doesn't?-will have great fun with the chapters  on  UMMO
and  on  Franck  Fontaine's  bogus  abduction.  Vallee's  deadpan
account of his dinner with Bill Cooper is hilarious. And he shows
admirable  good  sense when he takes after  paranoid  ufologists'
traditional anxieties about tapped phones and CIA  assassinations
of those who know too much about flying saucers.
    What he himself believes, alas, is hardly less crazy. Much of
his  problem  is that he has a hard  time  entirely  disbelieving
anybody.  To  Vallee even those whom others have had  no  trouble
identifying  as crude charlatans are "sincere." To those  who  do
not see a conspiracy everywhere, it is quite easy to accept  that
somebody  might  peddle tales of man-eating aliens--or  of  Space
Brothers  or  of  ETs  in our midst-simply  to  fatten  the  bank
account, to gratify the ego, to fool the gullible, or to feed any
other  unworthy  but  recognizable human  impulse.  There  is  no
reason,  logically or evidentially, to suspect these hoaxers  are
some  other hoaxer's victims. But if one wishes, with Vallee,  to
indulge  in conspiratorial musings, then the contactees  and  the
Cooperists  really  had  an  experience  (with  actors  in  alien
outfits)   or  really  saw  a  secret  document  (contrived   for
disinformation purposes), even if to get there one has to  ignore
clear and specific evidence that the claimants are lying  through
their teeth.

<<Continued in next message..>>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Clark/Vallee/Revelations - Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 02:05:00 GMT
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 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from Michael Corbin
 * Originally dated 12-15-91 10:49

<<..Continued from previous message>>

    Vallee  drags the Cergy-Pontoise tale--a confessed hoax  yet-
into the conspiracy. In this instance, he writes, the agents were
"beings  of  flesh  and  blood within  the  French  military  and
technological  establishment." How does Vallee know this? He  has
it  from  a  nameless source who claims to have  spoken  with  an
anonymous bureaucrat in the French Ministry of Defense.
   This,  by the way, is the same Vallee who complains  (on  page
76)  of Len Stringfield's habit of citing anonymous sources.  Yet
anonymous  sources, making claims in some ways as  incredible  as
those    who   tell   Stringfield   of   crashed   saucers    and
extraterrestrial  autopsies, abound in Revelation's  pages.  Some
instances: (l) "[A]ntiterrorist exercises in which the  attackers
disguised  their craft as a flying saucer have actually been  run
more  than once," which explains cases cited by "amateur  groups"
as  "proof  that extraterrestrials are  surveying  our  strategic
assets."  Source:  "men who were trained in  the  penetration  of
nuclear  plants  and  missile bases," none named.  (2)  There  is
evidence  that  the  "UMMO group" is linked  with  the  "LaRouche
extremist  movement in France." Source:  "French  investigators,"
none named. (3) During Desert One, the failed April 1980  attempt
to  rescue American hostages in Iran, a "disk resembling  a  UFO"
was  seen. "It was said to be a platform for  nonlethal  weapons,
intended  to paralyze or otherwise disable the  Iranian  guards."
The  "code word for that part of the operation, of which  Richard
Secord  and  Oliver North had been among the planners,  was  none
other  than  Snowbird,"  a  name  that  appears  in  recent  UFO-
conspiracy lore. Source: "some witnesses," none named.
    Even   as  he  complains  of  "eager  believers  [who]   have
fabricated   fanciful  explanations  out  of  whole  cloth,"   he
breathlessly  spins theories out of what appears to be  the  same
material. He enlists UMMO in the conspiracy, even as he  mentions
in passing the more prosaic findings of two Spanish investigators
(actually  named)  who  have uncovered  evidence  suggesting  the
supposedly  extraterrestrial writings were forged by  individuals
(also named) associated with a Spanish contactee group. Poor Carl
Meredith  Allen (aka Carlos Miguel Allende) is  resurrected  from
the  Saucerian  boneyard, and we are to believe  that  Morris  K.
Jessup's  suicide was in some way-here as elsewhere in  the  text
Vallee  is  vague on details connected with  the  conspiracy.  In
fact,  from  every available indication  Jessup's  suicide,  like
James  McDonald's, had nothing to do with his UFO  interests  and
everything  to  do with his personal problems. As for  Allen,  if
Vallee  had read Robert A. Goerman's article in the October  1980
issue  of Fate--evidently he has never heard of it-we would  have
been spared this further exploitation of this sad character.
   Vallee  is  brought  to Norton Air Force  Base  to  learn  UFO
"secrets"  from two men whom even he recognizes as no  more  than
naive saucer buffs. Yet when one tells of a desert meeting with a
landed  UFO some years earlier, Vallee cannot resist  speculating
that  the  occupants were American agents of the  conspiracy-  He
does  not  think to ask why the U.S. government would go  to  the
considerable trouble and expense of building an advanced aircraft
and training pilots to act like space people simply to dazzle one
obscure individual who would never publicize the experience.
    I  suppose that something like this would happen, but  if  we
are  to believe it did, Vallee will have to produce the  relevant
evidence.  But  evidence is the one  element  most  conspicuously
missing   here--as,   one  might  add,  in   all   UFO-conspiracy
literature. In the end, though he is sincerer and saner than most
other current conspiracy theorists, he gives us no more reason to
believe  him  than  they do. Vallee has little  to  offer  beyond
unnamed  informants and a ufological revisionism which offers  us
speculation  and  imagination in place of reason  and  substance.
There   is  nothing  remotely  like  the  documentation  a   true
investigative journalist would have nailed down before he wrote a
book  as  loaded  with bizarre  and  implausible  allegations  as
Vallee's.
   According  to Vallee, UFO beliefs are so  spiritually  charged
that  they  are actually changing society, and that  is  why  the
conspirators use them to manipulate us to some end or other about
which  Vallee is characteristically obscure. In fact,  UFOs  were
trivialized and marginalized long ago, and outside ufology, which
Vallee  apparently  has  mistaken for the real  world,  they  are
visible,  and even there not consistently so, mostly  in  popular
culture, along with rap music, soap operas, supermarket tabloids,
miniskirts,   and  other  ephemera.  As  a  vehicle  for   social
transformation  UFOs  are  just about the  last  thing  any  sane
conspirator would choose.
   A  more  interesting  question is why  and  how  a  phenomenon
potentially  so significant has come to appear to most people  to
be  of no consequence whatever. Maybe that's where we'll  uncover
the  conspiratorial  machinations, if we are determined  to  find
them.  Other, less sinister explanations come to  mind,  however,
and  some can be found in less exciting but  more  intellectually
fulfilling books and papers by sociologists of science.
    Of  course,  if  we  were to follow  the  logic  of  Vallee's
argument, why confine the conspiracy to the UFO era? If we  don't
let  a dearth of evidence for a conspiracy stop us, there  is  no
stopping  us.  What is to keep us from concluding,  for  example,
that Richard Shaver was not a nut, as generally assumed, but  the
victim  of a mind-control experiment which led him to believe  he
met alien creatures underneath the earth in the 1930s and  1940s?
And what about 19th-Century Spiritualist mediums? Were they, too,
victims of the conspiracy? After all, Spiritualism had a far more
marked  effect on Victorian culture than flying saucers have  had
on  our own. A medium is even said to have  encouraged  President
Lincoln to emancipate the slaves.
    But if one has no compelling desire to drop into a black hole
of unreason, one can but reflect that hoaxes, delusions, visions,
and  strange  occurrences  have  always  been  a  part  of  human
experience, and since the UFO era has been lived by human beings,
why  should  we expect it to be different? Why should  not  weird
tales  circulate  in  our  time?  In  the  absence  of  evidence,
conspiracy  theories  of  the sort  Vallee  proposes  simply  are
unnecessary.
   And yet, from time to time, Vallee touches on real issues. The
Holloman Air Force Base affair, which concerns an apparently real
film  of  what  is supposed to be a  meeting  between  government
scientists and aliens, is a puzzle. So are the Bennewitz episode,
the  MJ-12  briefing  document, and related  matters.  Vallee  is
surely  correct, though he is hardly the first so to argue,  that
these amount to evidence both of a strange psychological  warfare
experiment  and  (at  least  where  Bennewitz  is  concerned)  of
egregious  official  misconduct.  But to  extrapolate  a  massive
conspiracy from these small elements is simply to excuse  oneself
from  the  ranks  of  those  who have  a  serious  claim  on  our
attention.
   Throughout the text Vallee vents his spleen, as he did in  his
previous book Confrontations, on those ufologists who  perversely
insist  on  thinking  for  themselves even in  the  face  of  his
repeated  offers  to do it for them. His books could as  well  be
subtitled  "Me Jacques; You Dumb." As always he displays  minimal
understanding  of ufologists and their concerns. Sooner or  later
the  alert  reader will notice that hardly any of  those  unnamed
"believers"  and  "amateurs"  ever actually  get  quoted.  Vallee
prefers  to set up and knock down straw arguments, always  easier
to  do  than  to address the concerns of  ufology's  serious  (as
opposed to naive or cracked) researchers and theorists.
   From  all indications he still has not read Thomas E.  Bullard
on the patterns in abduction reports or Michael D. Swords on  the
scientific  soundness of the extraterrestrial hypothesis. No  one
familiar  with  UFO Crash at Roswell or The Roswell  Report  will
feel  Vallee  has contributed anything to rational  discourse  on
that  subject.  Vallee continues to ignore  the  many  nontrivial
criticisms  of  his  approach  I outlined  in  "The  Thickets  of
Magonia"  (IUR, January/February 1990). He has simply cranked  up
the  volume  as he declaims yet again what is less  a  scientific
reading  of the phenomenon than an occult one. Let us not  forget
that  Magonia,  the  word  Vallee  made  famous,  translates   as
"Magicland."
   Errors  large  and  small litter  the  pages  of  Revelations,
evincing  Vallee's ignorance of any ufology but his  own.  Donald
Keyhoe did not write The UFO Conspiracy, nor is Timothy Good  the
author  of something called Beyond Top Secret. Benton Jamison  is
not  "Benton  Majison,"  and Detlev Bronk's first  name  was  not
"Detley."  (For that matter, Leo Tolstoy's was not  "Leon.")  And
whatever  else  page  216  would have  you  believe,  CUFOS  left
Evanston,  Illinois, years ago. Vallee's coverage of the  crashed
disc  question  is  a  disaster.  He  has  the  Ubatuba  incident
occurring in 1933 or 1934 when it is supposed to have taken place
in 1951. He places the Spitzbergen event in May 1941-contemporary
published accounts put it in the early 1950s, though it is almost
certainly a hoax-and Dorothy Kilgallen is incorrectly  identified
as the source of the rumor. The celebrated Texas/Mexico  incident
is set in a year and location different from those its proponents
have assigned it.
   One  assumes,  however,  that no error  lies  behind  Vallee's
pretense that the Journal of Scientific Exploration is the  "only
refereed publication in the field" of ufology. First, JSE is  not
a ufological periodical, though it publishes occasional papers on
the  subject,  and second, as Vallee is well aware  as  a  former
JUFOS  board member, CUFOS' Journal of UFO Studies  is  ufology's
only  "refereed publication." This is Vallee's way of  responding
to his critics.
    There is more to be said, but enough is enough. Let us  close
with Vallee's own words:
    "Mysteries that linger without solution for such a long  time
are  a powerful irritant to the mind; they tend to  trigger  wild
speculation.  When  the very existence of the  enigma  is  flatly
denied by arrogant scientists who have not even taken the time to
look  at the data, when the government destroys or covers up  the
fact  that its own employees have actually witnessed some of  the
best documented sightings, it is natural for speculations to turn
into  paranoia, and for research to become derailed by  fantastic
delusions.
    "It  is at this point that the very people who could help  us
in  our  investigations, namely the UFO  researchers  themselves,
become caught up in their own need to believe in the most bizarre
theories, for which not a shred of real proof exists."
   Sadly, Vallee has no idea that he has just described himself.-
Jerome Clark

PARANET FILE NAME: VALLEE.REB

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews
From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 91 19:56:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 27

In a message to All <12 Dec 91 18:02> Hume Smith wrote:

 HS> From: [e-mail] (Hume Smith)
 HS> Date: 12 Dec 91 15:50:22 GMT
 HS> Organization: Acadia University
 HS> Message-ID: <850347s.692553022@aucs>
 HS> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 >>Funny how the PC crowd never mentions that the
 >>Aztecs were into stuff like _human_sacrifice_.

 HS> nor mentions it was Europeans who invented scalping.  i forget if it
 HS> was the english or the french...  they'd pay for pelts no matter the
 HS> origin, it seemed.

Actually it was the French -- there was a bounty for Brits killed by the Indians, but they had to bring the scalp as proof.

A lot of indians scalped people *alive*, though.  Sort of savage kindness, but it did leave the victim alive, though.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Vallee Responds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 02:06:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 66


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from Michael Corbin
 * Originally dated 12-15-91 10:50

Author, Jacques Vallee, has sent a letter to ParaNet which is posted here for
your information.  Please note, it is (C) 1991 by Jacques Vallee.

A LETTER TO READERS OF 'REVELATIONS'

by Jacques Vallee

In the Sept/Oct. 91 issue of its magazine, known as IUR (the "International UFO
Reporter"), the Center for UFO Studies has published a review of 'Revelations'
signed by Jerome Clark.  It claims that (1) the book contains errors in names
and citations, (2) its summary of alleged crashes is "a disaster" because
several dates are wrong, (3) it pays too much attention to claims that should
be summarily dismissed as fraudulent, (4) it does not reveal the names of all
sources and (5) it fails to quote ufologists with differing views.

These claims, except for the very first one, are false.

(1)  I have relied too much on memory and I have occasionally fallen victim to
typos.  For instance, CUFOS has indeed moved to Chicago rather than staying a
few miles away in Evanston.  Dr. Bronk's first name should be spelled Detlev,
not Detley (it is spelled correctly in the index).  Two letters got inverted in
Jamison's name and I did not catch it.  And it is undoubtedly true that JUFOS
(Journal of UFO Studies) is a refereed journal.

(2)  Crash data are notoriously unreliable, as IUR itself has often pointed
out.  However my "1933 or 1934" date for Ubatuba was not a typo.  Similarly,
from the data I have I must stand by the quoted material of May 1947 for the
Spitzbergen crash.

(3)  It is true that I did not castigate the claims of John Lear, Bill Cooper
and Bob Lazar as outright frauds.  I believe that these men are wrong but I
cannot conclude that they lie.  Somebody is using Lazar.  Somebody invented the
MJ-12 documents.  Somebody typed the papers that Richard Doty gave Linda Howe.
I did not hesitate, on the other hand, to denounce the Meier case and the Ed
Walters claims.

(4)  I am being taken to task for suggesting that Len Stringfield should have
revealed his source's names, then neglecting to publish my own.  This is
another bad faith argument.  I have never implied that Mr. Stringfield should
violate the trust of his informants by making their names public in a book, and
I certainly will not be guilty of such a violation myself.  In fact the very
same issue of IUR prints an interesting article by Dr. Bruce Maccabee, hinting
at unnamed informants.  My argument with Mr. Stringfield's sources is that bona
fides independent scientists have not been able to talk to them on a
confidential basis.  How do we know that we are simply dealing with another
"Aviary?"

(5)  As for the claim that the book fails to mention contrasting views, I
believe it is equally unfounded.  Many such researchers were cited verbatim. On
page 216, I even quoted Jerome Clark's interview with the Hartford Courant,
where he summarily dismissed the Voronezh case, one of the most important UFO
events of the last ten years.

Signed

Jacques Vallee

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ihz.compuserve.com!dzecchin
From: [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Polar shift and Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 13:14:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
Lines: 53

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, ** Sender Unknown ** writes:
>> Does anyone know if the coming of the aliens(Talked about on this newsgroup)
>> that are supposed to come like around 1996, have anything to do with the
>> shift of the poles of the earth(supposed to happen in 2000).  If there was a
>> large asteroid that came into orbit around Earth(more talk from a.a.vis),
>> would that be of enough mass to help change the poles of the earth? I guess
>> it would depend on size and composure of the asteriod, but would it be
>> possible?
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Aaron Anderer, System Operator                [e-mail]
>> SPECTROX SYSTEMS [phone]              szebra!spectrx!system
>> "Guess who's coming to dinner" -Chekov Star Trek VI
>
>
>What would a large asteroid have to do with the shifting of the poles on our
>planet?  And besides, who ever said that the poles are going to shift in the
>year 2000?  I'd like to have more information about that.
>
>
>JKJ


Oh, I don't know...I mean, if a REEEEEEALLY big asteroid were to come
REEEEEAAAAALY close, I mean, MAAAAAAYBE, just MAAAAAAYBEE, there could be a
say, snowball's chance in HELL of it turning the poles.

From what I hear, the evidence indicating that the magnetic poles have shifted
in Earth's history is pretty solid (observations of magnetic ores in
multiple layers of the Earth's crust show regular changes in the direction
of the forces...BUT

I don't think there's an IDIOT scientist alive that can agree that using
rock strata to classify dates can get you ANYWHERE within a 1-2 THOUSAND
year range under best cases.

Somehow, I don't think the year 2000 is going to be THAT special...<g>

And, if we assume that the magnetic field of the Earth and the other planets
is due to movement of ANYTHING in the cores (which, by the way, makes some
difficult alliterations when working with the other planets of the solar system
Keeping in mind that the mass of the LARGEST known asteroids is incredibly
small in comparison to that of the Earth...this makes things like this
rather unlikely...

Be seeing you...
--
"Dave, Dave That CompuServe Kinda Guy"    (Not my fault, I JUST work there!)
 "If it can't be expressed in figures,  [e-mail]
      it's not science; it is opinion"  [e-mail]
                   -Robert A. Heinlein  [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!sjcupps
From: [e-mail] (Sara J Cupps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO announcement
Keywords: government
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 14:02:58 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Sara J Cupps)
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 10

Be sure to watch the Christmas day edition of "Unsolved Mysteries".
I just heard that the government is supposed to announce something about UFO's
in conjuction with the show.
--

[e-mail]     "Inside my heart is breaking,
S. Cupps                  My makeup may be flaking
934 Maple #7              But my smile still stays on.
Story City, IA  50248     The show must go on."
USA                          -Freddie Mercury | Queen
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!bu.edu!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Dec 91 09:58:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Organization: WorldWide Software
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:466 sci.skeptic:18548 alt.alien.visitors:3636 alt.config:5613

JH = [e-mail] (Joe Halpin)
JW = [e-mail] (Joel Williamson)

JW: The original question remains unanswered: Is it possible to travel
JW: backward in time?  Only answers posted before this article is submitted
JW: will be regarded as authentic.

JH: It is, in fact possible to travel backwards in time. As a matter of fact,
JH: a symposium on this subject is going to be held two weeks ago. This will
JH: be posted then, although we haven't got the time bug worked out in rn yet,
JH: so the postmark will be incorrect.

In order to get this to work you have to make sure that your system
allows negative time values to represent times before Jan 1, 1970.  It
is also necessary to change the type of getpid() from unsigned to
signed so that jobs started before the system booted can have negative
pids.  Patches will be posted recently.

Also, watch out, as the meanings of < and > in the shell are reversed
when moving backwards.  And make sure your CPU is certified for
time-travel, or it may branch in the wrong direction!
--
I'll leave you with this saying:
I'm into SOFTWARE!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!dcl-cs!gdt!brispoly!r_voisey
From: [e-mail] (R Voisey)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Firsthand account
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 13:49:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Bristol Polytechnic, England
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christopher S. Diaz) writes:
>
>    Boy scout campout... night was cold and very clear.  Looked
>at the sky for constellations and saw an object that looked like a
>star moving across the sky at a fairly fast rate.  It had the brightness
>and size of the average star that night.  It was white in color and did
>not blink, so I dismissed it as any plane light; I don't think it
>flickered like a star, but it was moving too fast for me to be sure.
>Someone said it was a satellite, but even at that age I thought that the
object had to be of considerable size to be seen that clearly.  Someone else
>suggested that it was an asteroid or shooting-star, but I never saw
>any tail from it - it appeared as a distinct dot, and like I said,
>wouldn't it have to be of considerable size to be seen that clearly?
>

I would have thought that there's a very good chance indeed it was a
satellite.  They do appear about the same size as stars, and tend to move at
about the speed you indicated.  Possibly it was a recent launched satellite,
which was orbitting closely prior to being manoevered to it's final orbit.

Here in the UK a _lot_ of UFO sightings prove to be satellites, or 'probably
satellites'..  they generally appear very low over the southern horizen and
move at about one perspective inch a second.

Bob
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!dcl-cs!gdt!brispoly!r_voisey
From: [e-mail] (R Voisey)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines
Subject: Re: Ovotron Newsletter for Jan-Feb 1992 (49K-LONG)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 14:14:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Bristol Polytechnic, England
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3638 alt.paranormal:3913 talk.religion.newage:8102 sci.skeptic:18549 misc.headlines:19278


I found this newsletter an incredible inspiration, and have no doubt that the
author is a master of what he does..    the scam was almost subliminal!

How moving it is that the computer is about to go down (wish I had forewarnings
of my system crashing!), and how my heart goes out to these poor people,
bankrupting themselves for the common good of mankind.  I'm sure there will be
lots of good American citizens who will dig deep and help these people carry
out their godly work, lest the Dark Lords should gain a never-to-be-released
hold upon our world.  Better safe than sorry afterall, huh?  Of course, I
daresay my cynical British outlook on life will lead to my eternal damnation,
but I really find it incredible that there are people who cannot see this
for what it really is!

Bob
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!glasgow!cd
From: [e-mail] (Colin Dunlop)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Firsthand account
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 17:50:59 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Christopher S.
Diaz) says:
>   Any comments or insights will be appreciated

It sounds very much like a satellite spotting to me as I have
seen many such occurences, some very bright ones comparing to
Sirius, other so dim they are hard to follow and easily lost
from vision.
On a good clear night you shouldn't have to wait more than five
or ten minutes till one comes into view. The faint ones as far
as my experience goes take up to four or five minutes to sweep
from horizon to horizon.
You mentioned that the size of satellites mabye being too small
to be spotted. If you think of a signal mirror eg A4 size being
used to transmit messages to people many miles away, then the
flash of light being seen from such a small object is quite significant.
So I reckon something the size of a satellite (whatever that is) can
reflect enough light to be seen from earth.

Someone once said that you can spot the space shuttle !
Is this true. Anybody out there know ?
Does anybody know if you can spot satellites from any part of the
world or is it just Kentucky and Scotland ?

Colin.


--
  Colin Dunlop            email : [e-mail]
  Computing Science Dept    phone : [phone] (x6044)
  University of Glasgow
  Glasgow  G12 8QQ
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!schumach
From: [e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 18:45:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Lines: 7
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:475 sci.physics:15494 sci.skeptic:18555 alt.alien.visitors:3640
Nntp-Posting-Host: starman.convex.com

One doesn't have to build big scissors at all, of course: just
observe the point where a wave breaks on a straight beach. If
the wave meets the shore at a low angle, the break point moves
very quickly indeed. If the wave is parallel to the beach it
breaks everywhere at once! (Horrors! Relativity must be wrong!)
In both cases the intersection point transmits no matter and
no information, and so it can move at any speed.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!ra!drumhell
From: [e-mail] (David Drumheller)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Firsthand account
Keywords: sky, lights
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 20:04:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 25

Another firsthand account...

    About eighteen years ago (I was thirteen) I saw some strange
lights pass through the clouds at about 10 o'clock at night.
I remember standing in the road in front of my parents house when
I suddenly looked skyward and saw three colored lights traveling
east to west.  They were actually `point sources,' but due to the
dispersion of light through the clouds, they appeared as three
diffuse balls of light.  One was blue, another was red, and the
third one was white.  I never heard a sound.

    I don't really know what possessed my to look up other than the
fact that is was very dark outside, and any source of light appearing
out of knowhere was bound to get my attention.  (We lived in a
development several miles from the nearest city, Bethlehem, PA.
To this day the neighborhood still has no street lights.)

    After all this time, the only explanation I can come up with is
that I saw `ball lightening.'  However, I would have expected to
hear some noise as well.  I'm sure there could have been some
reasonable explanation for it at the time.  In any case, it was a
very strange experience.

Dave Drumheller
Washington, DC
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbfsb!cbnewsf.cb.att.com!rew
From: [e-mail] (robert.e.wilber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Firsthand account
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Dec 91 01:07:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 18

}In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christopher S. Diaz) writes:
}    Boy scout campout... night was cold and very clear.  Looked
}at the sky for constellations and saw an object that looked like a
}star moving across the sky at a fairly fast rate.  It had the brightness
}and size of the average star that night.  It was white in color and did
}not blink, so I dismissed it as any plane light; I don't think it
}flickered like a star, but it was moving too fast for me to be sure.
}Someone said it was a satellite, but even at that age I thought that the
}object had to be of considerable size to be seen that clearly.  Someone else
}suggested that it was an asteroid or shooting-star, but I never saw
}any tail from it - it appeared as a distinct dot, and like I said,
}wouldn't it have to be of considerable size to be seen that clearly?

What you describe sounds *exactly* like a meteor ("shooting star").  I've seen
them occasionally, and I've never seen one with a tail (perhaps when they're
breaking up they leave a trail, but I've never seen one do that).  Normally a
meteor looks just like a star, moving rapidly in a straight line.  And you
won't hear any sound unless it's very close.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct
From: [e-mail] (Brent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Firsthand account
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Dec 91 02:33:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Distribution: alt
Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc.
Lines: 22

[e-mail] (Colin Dunlop) writes:
|Someone once said that you can spot the space shuttle !
|Is this true. Anybody out there know ?
|Does anybody know if you can spot satellites from any part of the
|world or is it just Kentucky and Scotland ?

I'm from Houston and have seen the Shuttle fly over before in the
early morning.  They always announce it when it happens.

I imagine you can see satellites from all over the world -- if you
have ever caught a glimpse of a computer simulation of the current
satellites, it looks like a swarm of bees covering the earth there
are so many.  Don't know if that is a 'real' simulation of the actual
number of satellites or if it is fake, but it's surprising.

I remember watching Skylab fly over years ago, when I was in Kansas.

-brent
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent P. Burton, N5VMG                                    Computer Sci/Physics
[e-mail]                                        Texas A&M University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!verifone.com!kent_f1
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Shroud: What a mistake!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Dec 91 00:39:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>
Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI
Lines: 12
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:18566 talk.religion.newage:8115 alt.atheism:19782 alt.alien.visitors:3644

>     But Mr. Johnsrud and others who believe the shroud to be a medieval forgery
>  have yet to provide plausible explanations for the anomalies of the shroud.
>  How would a medieval forger know to put the nail wounds in the wrist, when all
>  the iconography of the time showed the wounds in the palms? How would he have
>  known that the crown of thorns was actually a cap, a fact of the shroud that
>  was also contrary to popular belief? How clever to provide details that could
>  be detected only with modern instruments, such as microscopic particles of
>  dirt embedded in the image of the soles of the feet.

Question:  If it aint Jesus, why does it HAVE to be a forgery?
Why cant the shroud be a simple, (albeit large) case of mistaken identity.

Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!n8emr!bluemoon!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: INVASION!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Dec 91 02:46:06 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (BBS Login)
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Lines: 51


     I have just gone through another venture into the world of
the unknown.  My mom had a stroke, and the tribulation of her
illness and the tapping of the phone lines between here and my
family drove me off the deep end again, and I wound up in the
mental hospital again.  Only this time, I was taken to the
emergency room at Tallahassee Memorial Hospital, and my dick was
sliced up while I was strapped to a stretcher.  It would take
another few chapters to my book to describe what took place
exactly.  Suffice it to say that I discovered exactly what is
going on here.  It involves aliens, demons, and the CIA and the
secret government.

     It seems that if you haven't been locked in a sealed chamber
for the last 20 years or so, you know that there is a thing on
rock albums called backmasking.  The Beatles started using it back
in the sixties, and they made a song called Revolution Number 9,
where they repeated the words "Number 9" over and over, with
backmasking on the words, which played in reverse said something
strange.  It seems that I may be the Number 9 that they were
referring to.  It seems that my entire life has been followed by
evil people wishing me harm, actually satanic forces.  They are
using the mental hospitals I have been in and many others as
prisons for replacing people.  There are also beings involved
which know (or knew) nothing about our culture, and are using the
hospitals to hold humans as specimens to gain knowledge.  These
are separate from the CIA, but are totally against me personally,
as they knew things from my past that nobody else could know,
except the people I grew up with in LA.

     This may be hard to believe, but I assure you it is the
honest truth.  This last two weeks in the hospital and the current
conditions here in Tallahassee are unbelievably horrific.  Angels
were trying to save me by the truckloads, so I know it is
something vitally important.  In the past, I knew what was going
on basically, as beings were trying to get me to become the "666",
rather than winding up as a nobody with my identity destroyed.
However, I have great hope now.  I have been able to ascertain the
precise nature of these beings finally, and the means they use to
read minds.  I will be filing lawsuits soon, and they are NOT
going to succeed!


          Gary Stollman




 This is from
     [e-mail]
who doesn't have their own obnoxious signature yet
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From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pious Aztec Frauds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Dec 91 04:33:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: We don't need no stinkin' batches!
Lines: 31

[e-mail] (Clark Matthews) writes:

|>Yeah.  Actually, the Aztecs' colorful religious practices did catch up
|>with them.  They worshipped Quetzacoatl, winged serpent, God of the
|>***Oppressed***.  The Aztecs' conquered neighbors who provided the
|>dozens of daily sacrifice victims obviously felt *considerably* more
|>oppressed than their Aztec conquerors, as you'd expect.

|>When Cortes showed up, every Indian nation from the Yucatan to the
|>Maya flocked to his banner and helped him -- they led him directly to
|>Tenochtitlan to meet Montezuma!  Poetic justice.

Not quite. Most of the nations adopted a wait-and-see attitude at
first. The Tlaxcalans, who were the traditional enemies of the
Tenochca-Mexica, first tried to slaughter Cortes' little party,
and when they didn't slaughter easily decided to throw in with them.
The closer they (400 spaniards plus several thousand tlaxcalans) got
to Mexico the more resistance they encountered; the Cholulans were
planning to ambush them, but Cortes was clued in to their intentions
and massacred them before they could massacre him. It was only after
being welcomed by moctezoma, running to the coast to fight another
spanish force that had come to arrest him, returning to mexico and
being thrown out of the city with heavy casualties, retreating to
tlaxcala and returning with some boats and laying siege in a very
impressive fashion to mexico that the various other city states (notably
texcoco) rendered him aid and comfort.

The mayas, generally weren't participating in this; they gave alvarado
some major hard times some years later.

josh
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!yale.edu!jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!uofs!vulture.cs.uofs.edu!bill
From: [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO announcement
Keywords: government
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 20:05:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Scranton, Scranton, PA
Lines: 14
Nntp-Posting-Host: vulture.cs.uofs.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Sara J Cupps) writes:
|> Be sure to watch the Christmas day edition of "Unsolved Mysteries".
|> I just heard that the government is supposed to announce something about UFO's
|> in conjuction with the show.

Is this going to be like the big announcement at the convention in Las Vegas??

bill

--

     Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
     [e-mail]   |  This space would be left intentionally blank
     [e-mail]    |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Lee)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Shroud: What a mistake!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Dec 91 14:22:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The SMYLEX Usenet BBS  (Newington, CT)
Lines: 25
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:18578 talk.religion.newage:8139 alt.atheism:19799 alt.alien.visitors:3648

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>>  How would a medieval forger know to put the nail wounds in the wrist, when all
>>  the iconography of the time showed the wounds in the palms?

Perhaps the artist actually tried crucifying someone and found that it
simply didn't WORK as usually depicted?  ;-)

> Question:  If it aint Jesus, why does it HAVE to be a forgery?
> Why cant the shroud be a simple, (albeit large) case of mistaken identity.

Question:  If it is neither Jesus nor a forgery, how did the image get
           onto the cloth?

The only arguments that I have heard for its NOT being a forgery run along
the lines of "if it IS a forgery, someone would have had to work YEARS on
it, doing painstaking work using a single hair for a paintbrush; *nobody*
would bother doing that!"  (People who make such arguments have apparently
never seen the Book of Kells or the Lindisfarne Gospels.)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 Jeff Lee             Free Dan Bredy!      Disclaimer:   I speak for Shipbrook
 [e-mail]  uhasun!smylex!jlee      Software, all of its employees, and
 [e-mail]      their families.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                     taH pagh taHbe' -- William Shakespeare
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel Fischer)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The famous Dr. Steel on 1991 VG [Forwarded]
Keywords: 1991 VG, near earth objects, heliocentric orbits
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Dec 91 17:39:15 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
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Nntp-Posting-Host: specklea


From [e-mail] Tue Dec 17 05:49:11 1991 ...
... did I get the following paper which he asked me to post to the net:

==========================================================================


        A ROCK OR A ROCKET?

On November 6th astronomers operating the Spacewatch telescope at Kitt
Peak in Arizona found what was at first assumed to be a small rocky
asteroid.  It was given the code-name 1991 VG.  More recent observations
from Chile
have indicated that this body, which raised a flurry in the world's media
when it flew close (on an astronomical scale) by the Earth on December 5th,
may in fact be an old rocket body returning to our planet's vicinity.

Spacewatch, operated by Tom Gehrels, Jim Scotti and David Rabinowitz
(University of Arizona) is a relatively small (91 cm aperture) telescope
which has been fitted with a large CCD array and programmed to search
for objects such as asteroids and comets which approach the Earth.  They do
this by letting the sidereal rotation of the Earth cause the instrument
to scan across
the sky, with the same area being returned to later, and again once more as
a check.  Any objects which have moved between scans are picked up by the
software, and the operator may then make a visual inspection of the data and
calculate a preliminary orbit for the new-found object.  Especially for the
fainter detections many of the orbits turn out to be geocentric, a
piece of man-made debris being indicated.  However some very small asteroids
have been discovered in this way: 1991 BA last January (the closest-ever
observed miss of our planet, at 170,000 km) and 1991 TU in October (at
750,000 km).  1991 VG is the second-closest observed fly-by, at 450,000 km,
or just further away than the Moon.  All three of these objects were estimated
to be about 5--10 metres in size, and are therefore the smallest
and intrinsically-faintest items ever
observed telescopically above the atmosphere.

However, 1991 VG was soon realized to be in an unusual orbit for an asteroid:
its path is very similar to that of the Earth, being almost circular
(eccentricity 0.08), the size of its orbit just 5\% larger than that of
the Earth (so that it takes just a few weeks longer than a year to circuit
the Sun), and, critically, an extremely small inclination to the ecliptic,
the plane of the Earth's orbit.  The latter parameter has a value
(about a quarter of a degree only) which is consistent with a man-made
spacecraft.  Initial computations by Brian Marsden (Harvard-Smithsonian
Center for Astrophysics) indicated that it might be an upper stage from the
U.S. Centaur rocket which put the German Helios 1 satellite into a
heliocentric orbit in December 1974, since tracing the orbit of 1991 VG
back in time showed a close approach about then.  A Soviet craft
was also a possibility.  However, as better astrometric data for 1991 VG
came in it was possible for its orbit to be improved, and Marsden found
that he could not identify a close approach to the Earth since the
beginning of the space age, and so the `rocket' option was discounted.
Since there are about a billion asteroids of this size or larger believed to
orbit in the inner solar system, the chances are that some of them will have
orbits very similar to the Earth, and in fact these are much more likely
to be detected by telescopes like Spacewatch.  From the opposite point of
view a calculation of the probability of a collision by such an object with
our planet indicates that its lifetime against such an event is only about
250,000 years, which means that it must have arrived in its present orbit
in the astronomically-recent past.  Marsden suggested that it might be
an object which had spent most of its life in a so-called `Trojan' orbit,
having exactly the same orbital period as the Earth but keeping 60 degrees
ahead or behind of the planet at all times, until it recently slipped that
mooring.  Many Trojan asteroids are seen in association with Jupiter, and
in 1990 a Mars Trojan was discovered.

However, close to the fly-by of 1991 VG Richard West (European Southern
Observatory) collected time-resolved images of the object using the Danish
1.54 m telescope in Chile: the path taken at that time was over the South
Pole and therefore out of the reach of most northern telescopes.  He found
that the brightness of 1991 VG varies rapidly and has a period of about
7--8 minutes, with several extremely bright flashes being detected.  These
are as expected for a rotating, shiny spacecraft which occasionally
renders a specular reflection in the direction of the viewer.  Such a short
period also seems inconsistent with a natural rocky asteroid, since it
is unlikely that such an object of 5--10 m diameter could have a spin
period of less that one hour without flying apart: its cohesive strength would
be too low.  In addition the relative
brightnesses in different regions of the visible
spectrum were essentially solar, warranting for a colourless object rather
than a reddish asteroidal reflection spectrum.  West concludes that
1991 VG is most likely an artificial object rotating about more than one
axis.

This being the case it opens up a problem for dynamicists: if 1991 VG
is indeed the Centaur rocket body launched in 1974 then how has its orbit
been perturbed so as to bring it back to our vicinity now?  One possibility
is that excess fuel has escaped and therefore had a rocket-effect
without being ignited.  It also seems inevitable that it will also soon
be claimed as being an alien spacecraft left by extraterrestrial visitors,
even though science will undoubtedly be able to provide a plausible
solution.  If it is a rocket then 1991 VG also provides an example of
mankind's ability to
pollute not only his own planet and immediate space environment, but
interplanetary space as well: the prevention of such pollution was the
subject of a resolution of the International Astronomical Union at its
General Assembly in Buenos Aires last August.

So is 1991 VG a rock or a rocket?  An answer to this may be
gained over the next week when Steve Ostro (Jet Propulsion Laboratory)
attempts to get radar echoes from it using the giant radar
at Arecibo (Puerto Rico).  An attempt from Goldstone (California) on
December 12th was unsuccessful.  The radio
reflection properties of metal are very different to those of rock, so
that a spacecraft would give a much stronger echo; its structure would
also affect the returned polarization.  Even then the answer may not
be  definitive since it is known that many asteroids, like meteorites,
are made of nickel-iron.

Is it so unlikely that a spacecraft would come back to Earth?  In fact,
using the orbit of 1991 VG prior to the recent encounter (a = 1.05 AU,
e = 0.075, i = 0.22 deg) the chance of this object hitting the Earth
converts to a lifetime of only 250,000 years (other Earth-crossing asteroids
have lifetimes more like 100 million years).  Increasing the cross-section
to that having a radius equal to the miss distance of 450,000 km implies
that an object in such an orbit would fly-by the Earth by that distance or
less once per 20 years or so: pretty frequent.


Duncan Steel,
Anglo-Australian Observatory,
Coonabarabran, NSW.


From [e-mail] Tue Dec 17 13:20:36 1991
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Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 91 23:17 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: NOT HELIOS 1?
To: [e-mail]
X-Vms-To: IN%"[e-mail]"
Status: R

                                               1991 December 17th.
Dear Daniel,

Thanks for the message.  I believe that Brian Marsden identified a
COSMOS craft from earlier in 1974 as a possibility, but at that time
he was looking for returns around that time (prior to a good orbit for
1991 VG being available).  Now no return to the Earth's vicinity is
found purely from gravitation: some have looked at the possibilities
of radiation pressure for a large hollow object (or a panel), or fuel
escaping.  It is not possible, it seems, to  narrow down to a candidate
if the year (even) when the object was last close to the Earth is not known.

I believe that the Helios 1 booster is still listed in the Satellite
Situation Report (i.e. return to Earth's surface NOT indicated) although
I will need to check on that tomorrow.


Duncan Steel


=====================================================================

Dr Duncan Steel,
Anglo-Australian Observatory,
Private Bag,
Coonabarabran, NSW 2357,
Australia.

"[e-mail]" or "[e-mail]" or "PSI%AAOCBN.OZ.AU::DIS"

Telephone:  [phone] (AEST is 10 hours ahead of GMT/UT)
            [phone] (home)
Fax:        [phone]

=====================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!mailer.cc.fsu.edu!sun13!ds1.scri.fsu.edu!pepke
From: [e-mail] (Eric Pepke)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Shroud: What a mistake!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Dec 91 01:48:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Eric Pepke)
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:18584 talk.religion.newage:8165 alt.atheism:19825 alt.alien.visitors:3650

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>Question:  If it aint Jesus, why does it HAVE to be a forgery?
>Why cant the shroud be a simple, (albeit large) case of mistaken identity.

Perhaps it could, but here's a reason why it probably isn't.

The shroud looks sort of a little bit like this:

+----------------------+
| ---\ --\    /-- /--- |
|    XXXX-O  O-XXXX    |
| ---/ --/    \-- \--- |
+----------------------+

OK, so that's not a very good depiction.  The point is that one side of the
shroud has the front and the other side has the back, and the images are head
to head.

There is absolutely no evidience that people about 2000 years ago wrapped
shrouds like that.  In fact, a little thought indicates that it is a stupid
way to wrap a shroud.  What are you going to do, stand the corpse on its feet
and lay the shroud over its head?

What the shroud does resemble is drawings and paintings of the shroud on
various pilgrimage artifacts.  It is far more likely that the shroud was
represented that way for dramatic and artistic effect than it was that it
was supposed to be accurate.  Medieval art didn't exactly consider photographic
accuracy an essential.  It is much more likely that a forger used that
representation because of its canonical nature than that people really did
wrap shrouds like that.

-EMP
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!ameij
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Dec 91 17:32:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>
>            ... I will be filing lawsuits soon, and they are NOT
> going to succeed!
>
This seems very pessimistic. Why not get a better lawyer?


Jan
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpfcso!hpgrla!notes
From: [e-mail] (notes administrator (Dan Peterson))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re^2: Firsthand account
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 91 04:40:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO
Lines: 42


I used to spend quite a bit of time up at night with my telescope. Those
of you familiar with trail ridge road thru Rocky Mountain National Park is
an incredible place to star gaze if the weather cooperates. I have seen
ball lighting ( red and blue ) on trail ridge road on several occasions.
I have pointed my telescope at the event ( A bright undulating ball at
180X from a distance of 10 or so miles). I watched one event where the
lighting formed south of my location (3 1/2 miles south east of the visitor
center) travelled at a an extremely high rate of speed and dissapated as
it closed in on Longs peak. At 12000 feet, flatlanders (I live at 5000 feet)
get oxygen deprivation after several hours. My first thought was UFO and I
could have allowed myself to buy right into the myth. Still I reasoned out
what I was seeing and correctly evaluated the event as St. Elmo's fire. I
see the aurora borealis about once a month because I know what I am looking
for and I live outside of town. One night I watched a group of stealth
fighters fly over at 3:00AM travelling east toward SAC was my guess. That was
over 3 years ago (There were no stealth fighters then). All this babbling has
a point.

My point is: question your senses at night, from experience, depth perception
is not as good at night (you can test this by going outside on a very dark
starry night and looking straight up, if you have a difficult time remaining
steady you will see what I mean). During a full moon, go outside with 4 coins
a penny, nickle, dime, and quarter. Estimate mentally which coin held at arms
length most closely estimates the size the moon (NEXT FULL DEC 21). Then
actually perform the experiment. Question your senses at night. As human beings
we have certainly been programs by our societies to believe some things that
just are not true. If you read a little quantum mechanics, you will see that
'aliens' would have to be some "MIRACULOUS" creatures get here from there. I
am asking any and all aliens to visit my house, I live in the country, you
can make a nice crop circle when you land, I dont have neighbors so you wont
terrify anybody, we can look at your home star with my scope. I'll be honest.
I used to believe in this stuff and now after a lot of new valid experiences
and knowledge. I dont. So feel free to land at my house, you can have coffee
and a moon pie, and I'll tell everyone I believe again.

starman

"what would i be thinking if i were a gelatinous creature living near a
sulfur spewing volcanic vent under a gazillion pounds of water pressure???"

:wq!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!io10081
From: [e-mail] (The Xanadian)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Dec 91 02:12:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
says:
>
>     This may be hard to believe, but I assure you it is the
>honest truth.

   How much are you going to stake that 'it is the honest truth'?

   Sorry, but I find it rather hard to believe... and I have conducted
my own tests to confirm my belief.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john
From: john@anasaz (John Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!
Message-ID: <1991Dec17.221342.22457@anasaz>
Date: 17 Dec 91 22:13:42 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA
Lines: 17

Keywords:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
]rock albums called backmasking.  The Beatles started using it back
]in the sixties, and they made a song called Revolution Number 9,
]where they repeated the words "Number 9" over and over, with
]backmasking on the words, which played in reverse said something
]strange.  It seems that I may be the Number 9 that they were
]referring to.  It seems that my entire life has been followed by
]evil people wishing me harm, actually satanic forces.  They are

Don't forget the song "Love Potion Number 9."
--
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john [e-mail] anasaz![e-mail]
 - - Affirmative Action is Tokenism by another name - -
 - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Dec 91 13:40:39 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 21


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes...
>
>     I have just gone through another venture into the world of
>the unknown.  My mom had a stroke, and the tribulation of her
>
>          Gary Stollman
>

        I was begining to wonder what happened to you Gary my boy.  After
        reading this latest  installment of your saga  I have come to the
        conclusion that you are a fraud.

        One of the reasons  I  feel  you  are  a  fraud is that you never
        respond  to  any of the  responses  to  your  postings  and  your
        apparent lunatic babblings are too contrived.

        Whoever you are you need to  move on and find a new audiance this
        one has grown tired of you.

        Steve Food_for_the_Greys
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Shroud: What a mistake!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Dec 91 19:55:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
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Originator: [e-mail]


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff Lee) writes in
part:
>
> Question:  If it is neither Jesus nor a forgery, how did the image get
>            onto the cloth?
>

See J. Nickell "Inquest on the Shroud of Turin" (Promethius), and
the references therein.

Among other things, he finds:
- The history of the shroud is, in fact, well known, despite claims
to the contrary.  It surfaced in about 1355 in Troyes, France.

- At the time of it's first display in Troyes, it was investigated
by the local bishop.  This investigation was reported to the vatican
30 some years later by the subsequent bishop, Pierre d'Arcis.
Among other things, d'Arcis notes:
"Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination, he [the contemporary
bishop] discovered the fraud and how the said cloth had been cunningly
painted, the truth being attested to by the aretist who ahd painted it..."
  [Nickell, p. 13, quoting a translation of the french by Thurston
  in Ian Wilson "The Shroud of Turin", 1979.]
In other words, not only COULD the image be put on the shroud, a
contemporary probe uncovered the artist who DID paint it!

The vatican has consistantly regarded the shroud as a relic
but NOT as the authentic burial cloth of X.

- the effects on the shroud can be produced with tools and methods
commonly used in the 14th century.  E.g., the "blood" is probably
egg-based tempura paint, the "negative" image is produced by wrapping
the cloth around a semi-round carving and then "rubbing" the paint
on.  It ain't that difficult to duplicate, despite claims to the
contrary.

- the depiction of the body is typical of many representation of
X's body in 14th century Italy, despite claims to the contrary.

- the alleged mysterious and "inexplicable" properties of the shroud
are largely made up by pro-shroud believers.  In particular, members
of the STURP group has a record of totally biased and bogus claims,
and should be taken with a LARGE grain of salt.


> [Some people say]"[...]*nobody*
> would bother doing that!"

The reason the shroud came to the attention of the vatican was that
it was being hawked as a tourist attraction by some unscrupulous
aristocrats.  They were forced to remove it from display by the bishop.

After the bishop died, it was put on display again, triggering
the d'Arcis probe and its removal a second time.

Over the years it was repeatedly moved and displayed by greedy
entrepenuers despite it's almost certain fraudulence and the
occasional hostility of the pius.

Why?  Money.  Does this sound like a plausible reason to manufacture
a relic?

> (People who make such arguments have apparently
> never seen the Book of Kells or the Lindisfarne Gospels.)
And boy have I got a deal for them on ancient artifacts!  Brand
new, made to order!

REMcG
[e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!sdd.hp.com!hp-cv!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!mikek
From: [e-mail] (Mike Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: OG. Anyone ever hear of it?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Dec 91 23:21:07 GMT
References: <ralex.692699369@bucket>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA
Lines: 18

>Ok, I have my earmuffs on so go ahead and laugh, but has anyone
>ever hear about a race of aliens from a planet called OG? (Stupid
>name I know...)

>Also anyone read a book called 'Allies' by Bob Shapiro & Edouard Mabe?
>Any comments on it?

>Randy

----------
I remember Edgar Cayce mentioning OG as the name of one of the sub-continents,
or large islands of Atlantis. I believe it was the western-most of three after
the first upheaval of Atlantis which broke into three large sub-continents
spanning the Atlantic. This first of three upheavals supposedly occurred about
200,000 years ago.

You Cayce advocates please correct me if I'm wrong. It's been a long time
since I read this material.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!stan!kj
From: [e-mail] (KJ Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Heliotropic Space and Hyperoptical Transmission
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Dec 91 03:17:19 GMT
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc.
Lines: 71



This is my first posting to this group. Constructive comments or related
ideas are welcome.

Back in the 10th grade, (1972) when I was studying elmentary algebra,
we were introduced first to line graphs (one dimensional) which allowed
us to plot points (zero dimensions), later we progressed to planar graphs
and we plotted lines. The culmination of the semester was three dimensional
graphs on which we plotted planes. At that time I noticed a relationship
between the graph's dimensionality (n) and the entity being graphed (n-1).
So I drew another axis and tried to plot three dimensional objects.
Later I found that this was called the 'minkowsky two-space' and the additional
axis was called the 'world line'. I still felt pretty good about myself as
a tenth grader and knew that my notions weren't too far fetched. I would
tape large sheets of graph paper together so I could plot various natural
events. Later I got rid of the 'world line' for lack of anything to do
with it and only used two axis which I labled time (x) and distance (y).
I plotted a man walking, a cheeta running, a car, a plane, the space shuttle,
the speed of light and the speed of light squared. After I determined the limits
of my graph x=infinity, y=0 (zero degrees kelvin) and y=infinity, x=0 (this
was alittle undetermined because by changing the scale I was able to plot c-cubed)
At any rate, I became frustrated because everything known to man was able to be
plotted in the (+,+) quadrant, and I had this really huge graph that  was mostly
empty. So I took another approach and starting from (0,0) here and now, I drew
a random, continuous line through the other quadrants. I sat down and tried to
figure out what my imaginary object was doing at various points. At some points
it was accelerating through the speed of light, going backwards in time without
moving at all, moving great distances without time and then travelled back to the
here and now (seemingly without ever leaving). This was disturbing for someone
struggling to get through algebra I. Sitting down and looking at my graph I realized
that the (+,+) quadrant represented three-space or R-cubed, and it was contained
by the top-half of the graph (-,+)&(+,+) or four-space. Four-space itself was
a subset of five-space (the whole graph). Now the kicker, the five-space part of
my graph which did not contain three or four-space had the attribute of negative-distance.
I defined 'negative-distance' as: Negative-distance is not positive distance in a
negative direction, but an inverse distance such that when added to an equivalent positive
distance equal zero. By traveling a negative distance one is able to bring the somewhere
to them without moving. That should invoke some thought! Let me continue. I put all this
aside while discovered girls and graduated high-school. The nagging idea that I wasn't
finished and that my concept needed rethinking never left me. I realized at some point
that all great achievements were preceded by a new mathmatics, and I began to look
at non-euclidian geometries and topologies. I feel I have invented a helio-tropic geometry.
Considering that damn near(if not everything) rotates, we should have a mathmatical system
which takes this into account. It should be built-in, such that a 'straight-line' draws
out a helix. I have graphed helio-space and can easily visualize how euclidian and
non-euclidian coordinate systems fit into it.  Heilo-space maps electrons, toilets, and galaxies.
Now for more. I envisioned experiments which would allow testing of the concept of zero-space.
Zero-space is defined as non-dimensional and "no other separate zero-spaces allowed" within
zero-space. In three-space we might have several occurances of the very same zero-space.
We would view these as separate points being separated by a distance, however, within zero-space
there is no distance, there is only one occurance all points are the same point. So, how
do you create a zero-space, is it really a black-hole? Maybe you could create a 'small'
controllable zero-space. Letting the imagination run, suppose you could somehow create two
of these zero-spaces, one in LA and the other in Tokoyo, we could drive new Mazdas into one and
they would comeout of the other. Sound like star-trek? Of course you would have to isolate the
three dimensional occurance of zero-space from let's say a big black-hole in deep space or
you would lose a lot of capital. This could be done by setting up a frequency at which the
origin and destination oscillated at. Think about it before you flame me and call me an idiot.
My experiment was to take one powerful laser, split the beam and direct it into itself 180 degrees
out of phase. In the path would be an enclosure at near vaccuum with some traceable gas inside.
Surrounding the enclosure would be electrical windings with opposing fields. All of this would
rest upon a platform which would oscillate at a non-naturally occurring frequency. Nearby you
would have the same setup except the enclosure would contain just the vaccuum, no gas. If some
sort of zero space could be created then I would expect that the gas would be found in both
enclosures after a period of time. My experiment which I thought of 20 years ago sound very
similiar to the recent experiments being carried on to achieve zero degrees kelvin with cesium
atoms. Oh well... More recently I redefined my graph to correspond with the notion that space
is curved. I drew my graph on a cylinder with (y) time being the long axis. I then drew the
speed of light ( which becomes a helix). It is easy to see that as speed increases, time slows
down.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ParaNet List Server
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Dec 91 23:08:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 19

For those of you who are interested, ParaNet Information Service provides a
list server for access to our network.  It is a daily compilation of traffic
generated within the network internationally dealing with the subject of UFOs.
Our discussion is well-balanced and provides the subscriber with access to the
world's leading UFOlogists in the United States, Australia and the UK, among
others.

To subscribe, send your request to:

[e-mail]

Michael Corbin
Director
ParaNet Information Service

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!pisa05.austin.ibm.com!sluzy
From: [e-mail] (Ray Sluzewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Test
Keywords: None
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 91 22:12:47 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]:ibmaus!auschs!YOURCOMPUTER.austin.ibm.com!YOURLOGIN
Organization: IBM Austin, TX
Lines: 1

This is a test
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!kingpol!titan.kingston.ac.uk!as_m332
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Were the Geminids good ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Dec 91 08:37:21 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Network News)
Organization: Kingston Polytechnic
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: tethys


    Did anyone catch a glimpse of the Geminids this year ?
    It was supposed to be quite a good shower this time round
    but it was too foggy here to see anything.

-Sean.

--
Sean Eaton, Mathematics, Kingston Poly, England.
[e-mail], ...!uunet!mcsun!uknet!uk.ac.kingston.titan!as_m332
or tharr![e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: My Unarius Past Life Past Life Reading
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Dec 91 17:31:43 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 104
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:18625 talk.religion.newage:8240 alt.alien.visitors:3663

I thought some of you net folks might find this interesting or at
least entertaining.  I spoke at one of the Unarius weekend events
called the Conclave of Light Celebration. I spoke on Biofeedback and
Reincarnation.  Apparently they liked my talk so much that I got
invited to dinner and received the following past life reading.
Ioshanna is Ruth Norman.  Ioshanna is/was her archangel? name.  She,
her two channels and I were sitting at a table in her home.  The
brother came through one of the channels.  Personally I think thats a
great way to handle things.  Ruth didn t have to do any of the work of
channeling.  Maybe I shouldn t get this personal on the net.  But oh,
what the heck.  This may explain some of my prior out bursts on the
net. :-)

Don Showen


August 18, 1974 Reading for Don Showen

Ioshanna: I will ask my dearly beloved Brothers of the Flame to come
in and please speak to me regarding Don Showen here. We would like to
find out some of his past lifetimes, especially Lemurla. Don was one
of the fine scientists. Greetings, dear Brother. We would like to know
especially if Don here has some special karma with Lemuria since he is
going to be involved with the big project. Does he have some special
karma that you could relate for us?

Brother: Yes, indeed, he was totally involved in the holocaust which
destroyed the continent of Mu. He was at that time, a person who
communicated or kept communications with the various and diversified
peoples who were in contact with the earth plane from other worlds. It
is a known fact, we believe that these communications were carried on
by the people of Lemurla prior to this one-hundred year period and
that there was communication between the people of Lemuria and the
outlying areas of the earth plane. It was this entity's job to
malntain and keep the communication lines open at all times for the
vital messages coming through in energy patterns that displayed
themselves after being demodulated by computer systems on a large
screen that could be monitored and could be visualized as the size of
one of the earth plane's outdoor theater screens.

This entire mechanism operated upon frequency-modulation and
oscillated the various syncing pulses from not only the earth plane
colonies, but yet into interstellar space where there were various
vehicles that would home in on this device which the entity was in
charge of, and it can be said that he had many people working under
him to maintain the equipment. This was basically a computer which
took the fundamental waves similar to a coherent laser beam, although
it was of a very high intense nature and displaced the various
information waves onto this screen. This screen displayed, as was
sald, the various coordinates, not only upon the earth plane but in
lnterstellar space.

Now, the karmlc situation was such that the leaders or the people who
were vying for power came to this entity and almost bid on his
services, that lf they had his services, entire control of this, more
correctly, tracking device, then they would have dominion or control
over their fellow antagonist. And so this was his involvement, that he
came under the influence of these various leaders and did utilize
these leaders' ability to pay him large sums of more than money -
large sum of goods which he could then utilize for his own benefit,
and as this developed or opened up and these blts of information were
given to the various leaders to whom he was slowly leaking out this
information at his will, that he did strangulate these leaders'
ability to control him and that they did not control him, as they
thought. But it was the other way around, and as this progressed, he
became deeply enmeshed in his own allegiance to principle, that was
not in accordance with his higher principle. These principles of the
lower nature did bind him to this nefarious act which he demonstrated
for many years.
       He was finally taken off guard and destroyed by the very weapon
which has been related to a a disintegrating machine. In other words,
he was replaced forcefully from his position after he had run his
course with all of the leaders in denying them their right they
believed,  to control this machine on their own behalf. So it is his
allegiance to these lower principles, these emotionalisms, which
accounted for his downfall. He could have very easily taken this whole
machinery out of the hands of the dark forces, but he did not do so
and therefore incurred this great karmic debt which he has been trying
to work out since that time.

Ioshanna: I see; well, that is quite involved and I am sure Don will
get a great deal from rehearing it. Of course, this would be the main
cycle, the main past life that he would be working on now, wouldn't
it, since he came in touch at this time?

Brother: There is another definite cycle which he must be aware of and
that is a lifetime in Tibet. In the high Himalayas, he was a monk and
vowed celibacy and complete relinquishment of material gain. Also, he
endeavored to rely on the high spiritual guidance of a Guru who
 was quite spiritually developed in his mind transferences,
levltation, etc ., and these in themselves , awed him and brought him
to an awareness of an inner lie.

The great karmic debt here, however, was that he was confronted by a
band of nomads, or better still, cut-throats, who were traversing the
area on one of his long treks into the high paths of these mountains.
He was confronted, as was said, and he did have the knowledge of'
defending himself against all odds physically. Although he was taught
that this would not be used, only in defense and without harm to
others he did, after being confronted by these men, six in number,
with weapons and threatened to be destroyed, he used his knowledge of
mind mesmerizing power and also his physical strength and knowledge of
defense and in a fit o anger, emotion, insecurity of survival, etc.,
he did kill all six.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!yale.edu!jvnc.net!darwin.sura.net!mlb.semi.harris.com!uflorida!novavax!vaccaro
From: [e-mail] (N. Trafford Vaccaro)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: shapes in the sky
Keywords: ufo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Dec 91 09:17:25 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, FL
Lines: 42

Hello world!

On two separate occasions I noticed something strange in the sky. Both
times I wasn't quite sure what I was looking at, because nothing I have
ever seen before fit the description.

I live in Florida, and I think it was in Autumn. I went outside in the
back yard to get some air. It was a breezy night and there were low,
rolling, fast-moving clouds, not more than 300 feet up, I'd say.
I looked up and saw a dark triangle, like a billiard rack, moving just
below the cloud cover. It was definitely NOT birds, because there were
no individual components to the triangle, and nothing was flapping
wings, it was just a triangle, no lights, no noise.
I ran inside the house to tell my girlfriend but by the time we got
outside, it was gone.

The other time was stranger. I was at my friend's house and he had been
drinking. I was recording some of his record albums to tape when I
decided to go outside. I looked in the sky and saw what appeared to be
balloons, like the small ones filled with helium that kids play with. I
didn't think much about it, it just looked like 3 or 4 ballons that
someone let fly away, but when I looked closer, I could not ascertain
how far away the "balloons" were, no matter how hard I tried. They were
flying about 45 to 50 degrees off the horizon and not moving across
town, like they were blowing away. They started getting smaller and
smaller until nothing was left except a star, which was probably there
to begin with, but I'm not sure. I ran into the house to get my friend
and, as usual, the thing(s) were gone.

I have never given these occurrences much thought until I saw this
newsgroup. The objects were in no way the typical cliche' UFO's with the
pretty lights, etc. It might have just BEEN birds and balloons, but I
was sober and these things caught my attention (enough to go find
another "witness"). If anyone ever saw objects like I described, then
we're on to something and I can say "Hmmmm" or "Wow!" and have a small
amount of excitement, etc.

Please, no wisecracks like "Yeah, you saw some alien balloons and some
ducks."

Thanks!
NTV
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!maximo!jkrump
From: [e-mail] (John Krumpotick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Speaking of Shapes in the Sky?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Dec 91 00:57:54 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (John Krumpotick)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 13

Here is a couple of minor 'ufo' experiences that someone may be able
to explain.

On two separate occasions in two separate states some friends and I
were looking at the stars.

While we watched, several 'stars' rearranged themselves.  This wasn't
simply the twinkle effect.  The 'stars' moved a greater angular
distance than the full moon and made right angle turns.

It looked just like some kids playing with remote controlled satelites.

Anyhow I thought this might ring a bell with someone.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Dec 91 02:32:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 14
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:530 sci.physics:15588 sci.skeptic:18647 alt.alien.visitors:3666 alt.config:5664

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes:
>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.  I heard a story
>about reflection using mirrors and the time that light takes to travel from
>a place to another and that seems it possible to travel in time but one needs
>MANY mirros,  is this true ?

Of course it's possible.  The Universe could very well be topologically a
multiply-connected manifold with wormholes all over the place.  Physical
theory generall has nothing to say on the matter since physical theories
don't generally address global topology.

One can derive self-consistent solutions to Quantum field equations over
closed time loops ... that's been proven possible ... thus the equivalent to
resolving the Time Traveller's Paradox.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stan!kj
From: [e-mail] (KJ Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Heliotropic Space/ UFO rapid transit authority
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Dec 91 04:03:56 GMT
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc.
Lines: 86


This is the second posting to this group.

The new geometry which I call Heliotropic Space is based upon
the helix as the equivalent to the straight line.  To get a
better picture of what I'm taking about, take a sheet of
graph paper, draw the x(time), & y(distance) axises on it,
arrange the scale so 'c' is at a 45-60 degree angle. Now
take the graph paper and wrap it around a cylinder (paper
towel core). Let's work with that for now. You should have
the x axis along the length of the cylinder by the way..
Draw some acceleration curves on the cylinder, including a
'time-machine' which exceeds 'c'. By comparing the lines
you can see that 'the faster you go - time slows down'.
I would like to develop a helical graphing system such that
I could graph the earth's and moon's rotation and orbit, then
graph a rocket's path from the earth to the moon and back.
I think it could be useful in describing orbital trajectories.

I thought up a device which probably won't work, but none the
less might work. Is it possible to increase the speed of
photons by shooting them through a very powerful rotating
magnetic field? THe device I had in mind was a cylinder with
an inner shell of permanent and electro-magnets. This inner
shell would rotate at very high speeds inside the cylinder.
The laser would fired through the center of the rotating
inner shell. Chances are that it would do nothing, but it
might impart a slight twist to the beam. Would this twist
cause the beam to slow down or would it stay the same speed
or would a particle/photon on the beam actually accelerate
to acount for the additional distance it would have to travel?
Still even if it slowed down, wouldn't it be cool to have a
device that when you put blue light into it you got red light
out of it? Maybe I need to rethink all of this.

I would like to bring up the concept of negative distance and
negative motion.  I want to define negative distance as
negative from the viewpoint of the third observer. Suppose
a pilot fly his plane from NY to LA, that's a positive what
3000 miles? Now to the passengers on the plane, they travelled
a postive 3000 miles. One might propose that negative distance
would travelling from LA back to NY, the return trip. But I
see that as another postive distance only in the opposite
direction. Negative distance should be negative from the
perspective of the third impartial observer. Negative distance
is the distance such that when added to the trip from NY to
LA would enable the passengers to travel to LA without leaving
NY.  In essence what we have here is space-time warp where
the two points coexist at the same point. Now that's Star Trek
:-)

The reason why I am insistent on a negative distance is
that my graph had one and a negative motion too. Nothing
that I knew of in this universe could take advantage of
the other three quadrants of my graph. My graph is like a
Karnough map in the way that it expands. First you have
three-space (the upper right quadrant) then expand it and
you have four-space which includes three-space (the top half
of the graph), then expand it again and you have five-space
(all four quadrants). If I say that four-space contains our
universe, it's past present and future, all with positive
motion and distance; then five-space contains all the above
plus negative distance and negative motion.  Will wonders
never cease?:-)

Now wrap that graph around a cylinder and you have cylindical
space. Now imagine this, remember those long balloons that
mimes twist up and make funny creatures out of? Well, take
the cylindical graph and wrap it around (draw it perhaps) one
of those balloons. Now twist the balloon till it reaches
what ..a singularity?? Maybe. Perhaps we could take advantage
of some of the peculiarities of the twist without a complete
collaspe of the graph (space-time). Maybe we could shift in
time or distance through this 'zero-space'.

On another note... if our universe can be described by the
set of real numbers cubed then GOD can be defined by
infinity plus one to the infinity plus one power. I guess you
would have to include the inverse set also. :-)

Looking forward to most everyone's reply..

KJsan
I'm learning Japanese
These are evidently my own thoughts regardless if you thought
you had them first :-)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!psuvm!cunyvm!m05bc
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Heliotropic Space and Hyperoptical Transmission
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Dec 91 04:50:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Lines: 19


   This Is also my first posting to this board...

   I am very interested in this topic about 3-d space/time
   Presently I'm reading "A breaf history of time" by Stephen Hawkin

   Could you please suggest any other material I could read on this topic

Thankz
========================================================================
       ___                         .
     /__ /|              .
    |   | |                                    "If You Don't Need It...
    |   | |                      . .                   Put It Back"
    |   | |                     .
    |   | |_______                        .
    |   |/______ /|
    |           | |
    |___________|/                .
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Dec 91 17:14:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:543 sci.physics:15607 sci.skeptic:18670 alt.alien.visitors:3669 alt.config:5671

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>[e-mail] (Phil OKunewick) writes:
>>   The problem is, if we can't perceive an object travelling at FTL
>>velocities, we can't prove that this object actually exists.  We can
>>theoritize on its behavior, just as we can mathematically calculate
>>properties of frequencies below zero hertz (using imaginary numbers).
>
>We can't prove that it doesn't exist either.
>
>All we can say is that we don't know.

We know, it's just that nobody accepts the articulation of what the math is
saying: namely that an object "moving faster than light" has an age measured
in meters and a size (in the direction of motion) measured in seconds.

As such, the very concept of "moving" is totally wrong.  It's timestream is
splayed out in space, and one of its spatial dimensions is now evolving in
time.  Hence, there is an observer frame with respect to which it will be
seen to be "everywhere at once".

That's why faster than light travel is impossible ... it ain't "travel" at all.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!malgudi.oar.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!psuvm!cunyvm!m05bc
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Help A New Guy...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Dec 91 16:19:25 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Lines: 18


   I'm really new to this network.  In fact I've only had my modem for a couple
of months and I've only been posting things here for two days...

   I would greatly appreaciate some help understanding all this...maybe you cou
ld suggest something I could read or e-mail me something...

   Help A New Guy...Thanks Alot               Lenny
==============================================================================
        ___                                 .
      /__ /|                    .
     |   | |                                        "If you don't need it...
     |   | |                             . .            ...put it back"
     |   | |                           .
     |   | |_________
     |   |/________  |                             .
     |             | |
     |_____________|/                  .
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!vesta.unm.edu!storm
From: [e-mail], , [e-mail] writes: ([e-mail] In article)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: shapes in the sky
Message-ID: <9hwfb1=@lynx.unm.edu>
Date: 20 Dec 91 17:08:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Alan Storm)
Followup-To: Rep: shapes in the sky
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque NM
Lines: 18


> I live in Florida, and I think it was in Autumn. I went outside in the
> back yard to get some air. It was a breezy night and there were low,
> rolling, fast-moving clouds, not more than 300 feet up, I'd say.
> I looked up and saw a dark triangle, like a billiard rack, moving just
> below the cloud cover. It was definitely NOT birds, because there were
> no individual components to the triangle, and nothing was flapping
> wings, it was just a triangle, no lights, no noise.
> I ran inside the house to tell my girlfriend but by the time we got
> outside, it was gone.

1; Was the, "dark triangle," solid, blanking out the heavens, or opened, "like a    billiard rack."
2; Have you had any odd dreams or seen unusual things involving electric blue.
3; Have you noticed any unusual and unexplainable marks on your body.
4; Have you heard any strange and unknown animal sounds.

                        Just Interested
                          The Watcher
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!atha!aunro!nstn.ns.ca!ac.dal.ca!egar0006
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Shroud: What a mistake!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Dec 91 16:41:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:18674 talk.religion.newage:8288 alt.atheism:19941 alt.alien.visitors:3672

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>>     But Mr. Johnsrud and others who believe the shroud to be a medieval forgery
>>  have yet to provide plausible explanations for the anomalies of the shroud.
>>  How would a medieval forger know to put the nail wounds in the wrist, when all
>>  the iconography of the time showed the wounds in the palms? How would he have
>>  known that the crown of thorns was actually a cap, a fact of the shroud that
>>  was also contrary to popular belief? How clever to provide details that could
>>  be detected only with modern instruments, such as microscopic particles of
>>  dirt embedded in the image of the soles of the feet.
>
> Question:  If it aint Jesus, why does it HAVE to be a forgery?
> Why cant the shroud be a simple, (albeit large) case of mistaken identity.
>

    One of the most interesting critiques of the Shroud that I have ever
seen was by an artist, a professor of drawing and painting. She commented,
on being shown the image on the Shround, that it looked like a fake to her,
because it had all the flaws common to amateur attempts at anatomical
drawing i.e. incorrect use of perspective, bad proportioning of body parts,
clumsy attempts at ascertaining relative size of facial features vis-a-vis
the rest of the head. She didn't know anything about carbon dating or chemistry
or medieval iconography, but she knew a bad drawing when she saw it!

- egar0006
Path: ns-mx!uunet!microsoft!russpj
From: [e-mail] (Russ PAUL-JONES)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Dec 91 22:24:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Microsoft Corp.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerald Weiler) writes:
>
>No, actually, with the right materials, it probably would be possible
>to build scissors that could close this fast. They don't really have
>to be that big, simply close fast. That way, if you take a large pair
>of scissors that close fast enough, the 'point' at which the two
>blades meet will travel down the blades at a rate faster than the
>speed of light. This does not break the theory that 'c' is an absolute
>maximum speed for particles, because the point at which they meet is
>not really a particle.

Nope, even theoretically, that point can't move that fast.
Special relativity says that if I jerk the handle of the
scissors, the point of the blade doesn't move until a
light particle could get from the handle to the
point.  Then, it might move very quickly to close the gap, but the
gap is not closed until after a beam of light could make the trip.
So, assuming that the scissors near the handle start closing right
away, it still takes a long time for the intersection to make it
all the way to the point.

This is similar to the standard example of a long rope to somewhere.
If you have a rope 1 light year long, and jerk on your end of it,
it takes at least one year for the other end to move.  In the same
way, the end of a blade of scissors one nano-light-second long won't
start moving for at least one nanosecond after you jerk the handles.

>The law could really be stated that no information carrying particle
>can go faster than the speed of light. The point on the scissors is
>not really carrying information in any sense. And you cannot open and
>close the scissors fast enough to make the point go back and forth at
>the speed of light. If you were to try it, you would find that the
>scissors could not really take this acceleration. That and the fact
>that there probably is some kind of lag in the response of the
>particles at the end of the blades, and when you squeeze the handle of
>the scissors...

But that point is carrying information.  It is the information that
the handle has been jerked.  Your example, if it worked, would let
an observer know that the handles had moved before she could see them
being moved, thus waking Einstein from his rest.

>>Live long and question authority
>--
>" Home is someplace you say 'My, this looks just like it did when I left'
>  not 'My, this looks like six million dragons flew in and wrecked the
>  joint!' " - Tasslehoff Burrfoot in DragonLance Legends
>-------Gerald Weiler---([e-mail])-----------------------

This is all much easier to explain with pictures, but ASCII won't
do.

-Russ Paul-Jones
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!sunee!praetzel
From: [e-mail] (Eric Praetzel)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Dec 91 02:05:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Waterloo
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Wow.  Just noticed all of the cross posting. But:
In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Russ PAUL-JONES) writes:
>>No, actually, with the right materials, it probably would be possible
>>to build scissors that could close this fast. They don't really have
>>to be that big, simply close fast. That way, if you take a large pair
>Nope, even theoretically, that point can't move that fast.
>Special relativity says that if I jerk the handle of the

The idea of the closing scissors is a bit off.  In one of my courses
(microwave or communication theory) we ran across a problem where you
can have velocities that are in excess of c.  However, there is no
information transmitted since they were orthogonal to the direction of
motion.  The simple example is a series of waves moving towards a shore.
The apparent rise rate as the wave moves forward (at c of course) can be
made arbitrarly large.  At least I think that was it.
// I joined a new-age group today.  Meditation and therapy are a big part
//  of my life now.  I feel the energy ...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stan!kj
From: [e-mail] (KJ Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Heliotropic Space part 3
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Dec 91 04:18:11 GMT
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc.
Lines: 125


This is part three of the Heliotropic Space Series

Hello again,

I would like to pose some ideas about time and infinite
mass. It seems safe to say that time (four-space) consists
of the past, the present, and the future. The reality
we experience only has three dimensions, we do not have
the dimensionality of time. If we did, then you could see
yourself walking up to the console to start this session
and see yourself as you logoff and every point in between,
all at once, continuously. This is similiar to viewing
a film as a whole strip laid out on a light table, being
able to see all the frames at once, continuously.
Three-space has no time per-say, it is equivalent instead
to the way we normally see a film, one frame at a time,
one flowing into the next. Our minds remember what we just
just saw and gives us the impression of time.

Now on to the subject of infinite mass.
If you can imagine a a super high speed movie camera
(with an infinite amount of film) taking pictures of you
from the moment of conception throughout your entire life
and including your death. That movie would represent the
four dimensional you. Once you break the bounds of
three-space (however) you become the time dimensional
being represented by that movie(including all the mass).
Consider a point on the planet (the size of a person),
consider the line traced by that point as the earth
rotates, as the earth orbits the sun, as the solar system
moves through galaxy, as the galaxy spins, etc... the
total mass of that person with respect to time quickly
approaches infinity if viewed from four-space. I suggest
that is what is meant by mass approaching infinity as
you approach the speed of light ( break the bounds of
three-space). If this is a plausible explaination, then
only the mass present in three-space (the original mass)
is being accelerated to the speed of light, the time-mass
is and always was in four-space. In four-space the mass
is already infinite. As you reach 'c' you become aware
of your time-mass already present in four-space.

Another subject... I invented (never built one) a
gravitometer (I guess you could call it that). It was
to be contructed with a central piezio-electric crystal
sphere (grown aboard the shuttle - very low gravity) with
inductive sensors surrounding it like the skin of an
orange. I theorized that whenever the 'gravitometer'
was moved through a gravity field, it would stress the
crystal and produce an electric current at some point on
the outer inductive shell.  The drawing that I made of it
(in 1980) looks almost identical to the 'crystal ball'
particle detector presently used at the Stanford Linear
Accelerator 'SPEAR'. It was detailed in Scientific
American some years later in an article about Quantum
Physics.

Yet another subject... I was playing around with my
helical graphs (I got some overhead transparencies) of
various curves (sinewaves are two-space representations
of helicalwaves) and I was superimposing them at various
angles when I saw something really neat.  I was able
to align parts of the curve to create a figure-eight
pattern. Now if you translate the curves into let's say
an orbital path of a planet then the figure-eight path
allowed a dual coincidence of the paths. In other words,
if you were travelling along one path you could literally
step off onto the other path (because they were aligned)
at that point, then travel along this new path a while
till the next alignment and then step back onto the
original path. The important concept here is that the
helical paths not only represent physical locations
but also the space-time geometry, and by changing paths
you also change your location in space-time. By stepping
back onto the original path at an earlier point you
have effectively travelled backward in time. The direction
you traverse the path determines wheither you time shift
forwards or backwards. (I'm sitting here right now
looking at this superimposed graph, trying to figure out
a way to explain what I'm seeing) I guess you have to do
it yourself. The curves really line up at two different
points, if they were paths of two spheres I could jump
from one to the other, ride it the other direction for
a while then jump back to the first at an earlier point.
I could then repeat this forever if I so chose. I have no
clue how you would find a path travelling the opposite
direction though. Maybe it's all relative.

I came up with a more concrete version of Heliotropic
Geometry after pondering a Rubic's Cube. I wanted to
write a program to solve the Cube. So, I first had to
model the cube. I wrote down numbers for each face-unit
which described the starting or rather desired ending
position. Then (I figured) I could input the current
position of each scrambled face-unit and following the
rules of movement, let the computer determine the
quickest combination of moves to restore the orignal
pattern. All well and good. I never wrote the program.
But what I did do, was to mentally add more sides to the
cube till it became Rubic's Tower and then more and more
sides till it became a mathematical representation of
Heliotropic Geometry. Just like linear algebra is made up
of an imaginary three dimensional grid, infinitely small,
with numbers at each intersection, my new geometric model
had a infinte number of shells, and an infinite number
of helical lines with numbers at each intersection.
I would still like to develope a program to allow me to
work within such a model. Can anybody out there provide
me with a flow chart of how to start such a program??
I can program in 'C'.

I'm suprised that three people have asked where they can
get more info on this... As far as I know there isn't
any.. I developed this on my own. I have never tried
to publish anything and figured that if I could think of
it others could too and maybe they had the background
to do something with it. Sure I would like to do
something great, invent a new math to carry us into the
next century, but if it really does have merit then I
would be happy to see anybody do something with it. I
guess I'm taking the first step by posting these ideas
at all.  More after I decipher my notes...

KJ Sullivan 12/91
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!csus.edu!beach.csulb.edu!beren
From: [e-mail] (Bob Beatie)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Dec 91 09:21:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bob Beatie)
Organization: Cal State Long Beach
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Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:561 sci.physics:15643 sci.skeptic:18698 alt.alien.visitors:3676
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 20 Dec 91 22:24:39 GMT


    I think the scissors analogy was interesting if I followed the idea,
but what about tachyons? As I understand it, tachyons exist ONLY above the
speed of light. I am not a physicist so I don't really know the theory behind
tachyons, but isn't that proof that the speed of light can be exceeded? Say you
could figure a way to convert a ship to tachyons and then re-convert when you
got to your destination. Well it's an idea anyway.....

                    Later,

                            Beren
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!coombs!avalon
From: [e-mail] (Darren Reed)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <avalon.693338078@coombs>
Date: 21 Dec 91 17:54:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
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Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:564 sci.physics:15645 sci.skeptic:18704 alt.alien.visitors:3677

[e-mail] (Bob Beatie) writes:


>    I think the scissors analogy was interesting if I followed the idea,
>but what about tachyons? As I understand it, tachyons exist ONLY above the
>speed of light. I am not a physicist so I don't really know the theory behind
>tachyons, but isn't that proof that the speed of light can be exceeded? Say you
>could figure a way to convert a ship to tachyons and then re-convert when you
>got to your destination. Well it's an idea anyway.....

>                    Later,

>                            Beren

there isnt much wrong with exceeding the speed of light (going faster than
light), its the getting there. Since getting to a speed faster than light
usually involves ataining the speed of light, its very hard to exceed it
because of energy requirements. If you have the lorentz transformations
about, plug some values greater than c in for v and see what happens.
You get things like time reversal, etc, so while it takes you a certain
amount of time to get somewhere, you have become younger. I think this
is how it works, not sure.

Darren
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: *** TV ALERT ***
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Dec 91 05:54:43 GMT
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Distribution: na
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3678 comp.sys.amiga.misc:11864

The Christmas episode of "Unsolved Mysteries" will be a rebroadcast of the
season premiere featuring the Bentwaters/Rendlesham case.

alt.alien.visitors readers take note:  Stanton Friedman was on Chuck
Harder's radio show "For The People" today and he mentioned the show, but
he didn't say anything about the government revelation that was rumored
here earlier (if one person constitutes a rumor.)  (More on what he did say
in a later article -- nothing on Bentwaters, but interesting.)

comp.sys.amiga.misc readers take note:  According to ".info" magazine, the
special effects were done on a Video Toaster.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: *** TV ALERT ***
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Dec 91 04:05:52 GMT
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Distribution: na
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3679 comp.sys.amiga.misc:11876

[I posted this yesterday but I don't think it got out.]

The Christmas episode of "Unsolved Mysteries" will be a rebroadcast of the
season premiere featuring the Bentwaters/Rendlesham case.

alt.alien.visitors readers take note:  Stanton Friedman was on Chuck
Harder's radio show "For The People" today and he mentioned the show, but
he didn't say anything about the government revelation that was rumored
here earlier (if one person constitutes a rumor.)  (More on what he did say
in a later article -- nothing on Bentwaters, but interesting.)

comp.sys.amiga.misc readers take note:  According to ".info" magazine, the
special effects were done on a Video Toaster.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews
From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Dec 91 21:50:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
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In a message to All <07 Dec 91 12:02> Chuck Sites wrote:

 CS> From: [e-mail] (Chuck Sites)
 CS> Date: 7 Dec 91 04:39:00 GMT
 CS> Organization: Copper Electronics, Inc.
...

 CS> Yawh.. Well, It is possible to observe the past. It's impossible to
 CS> to interact with the past though. Can one observe the future? Well,
 CS> unfortunaly, time is dimensionally incomplete. That is, while it has
 CS> forward direction, it doesn't have a reverse.

Hello Chuck, sorry for the delay in responding to your interesting post re: Time's Arrow.  Would you expand on this dimensional "incompleteness"?

Do we know that time is dimensionally incomplete?  I'd like to hear more about that.  Obviously a 4-dimensional system has time as a vector pointing into the future.  But what about the multimensional theories that have abounded since the 1920s?  Successfully postulate a 5th dimension, and Time *can* be complete, but it can go both ways.  :-)

In particular I'm thinking of Hertzfeld's equations, which balance Maxwell's equations with Einstein's by adding one extra dimension, the 5th Dimension.  Mathematically it's wonderfully elegant.  Experimentally I don't have a clue where we would begin to test it.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Dec 91 22:10:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
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In a message to All <08 Dec 91 18:40> Redheaded Goddess wrote:

 RG> From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
 RG> Date: 8 Dec 91 17:54:40 GMT
 RG> Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
 RG> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 RG> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 RG> For any one interested more in bilocation, try reading some
 RG> autobiographical accounts of Padre Pio, the Capucine monk who
 RG> bore the stigmata for many years and could bilocate to people
 RG> in hospitals, etc.

 RG> To me, this points to the concept/idea/aspect of diffusing one's
 RG> being/cells/atoms to such a degree with light (saints are known
 RG> to have so celestialized their atoms/cells that they are perhaps
 RG> omnipresent, in a sense, if one thinks/analyzes it).

Hi!  The first thing this makes me think of is the holographic paradigm.

Wouldn't it be interesting if some people have the ability (who knows how) to manipulate the holographic paradigm and "cross-print" themselves somewhere else?

To do this would require the manipulation of an extra dimension (or two or three or ???)  But what's really intriguing is that this ability seems to be psychic in nature, for the most part.

The so-called Philadelphia Experiment, whatever it really was and however it might have worked, points to a mechanical means of inducing bilocation, albeit crudely and uncontrollably.  Supposedly this Navy experiment (or experiments) involved a Stealth-like system for making ships invisible to radar during World War II.  As such, the experiment would have entailed somehow absorbing 10cm or 3cm radar waves, perhaps through some sort of cancellation or interference pattern generated around the "Stealh-ship".



  10cm waves are the better candidate, since the Germans and Japanese used that frequency almost exclusively for their WWII radars.

Anyway, it's interesting that individual people seem to have better (and safer) results than the boffins do...

Best,
  Clark



 RG> Padre Pio was a devout monk/priest...who bled profusely and
 RG> was an instrument of bodily healing for many people.  I met a
 RG> man a few months back who met Padre Pio personally and had
 RG> a biolocation experience regarding him, and a physical healing.
 RG> Padre Pio is now deceased, but is prayed to by many for assistnace
 RG> assistance in their spiritual journeying.

 RG> Kathy

 RG> --- ConfMail V4.00
 RG> * Origin: Paranet(sm) - The world's leading UFO Investigative

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Something not-so-huge
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Dec 91 22:56:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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In a message to All <10 Dec 91 12:04> Robert Sheaffer wrote:

 RS> From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
 RS> Date: 10 Dec 91 03:45:05 GMT
 RS> Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
 RS> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 RS> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 RS> My, my, how convenient. Anyone who
 RS> looks at the same so-called "evidence" as
 RS> you do, and fails to be convinced, *must* be in the pay of the CIA or
 RS> whoever, sneaking around, spying, informing, lying: all part of the
 RS> "great conspiracy" of the [illuminati, CIA, Skull & Bones, Vatican, (or
 RS> add your favorite)].

No.  I have a problem with someone who listens to the so-called evidence and reports people with persuasive views or unique information to the FBI.  He admitted to me at MUFON 1987 that he has done this.

 RS> If Phil Klass were the paid agent of
 RS> sinister forces, why would he continue
 RS> to *waste* his time writing long articles in Aviation Week most every
 RS> issue, long past the normal retirement age of 65?? Why wouldn't he spend
 RS> all his time debunking UFOs?

If your job is monitoring worldwide aviation, satellite, and reconaissance technology, being a contributing editor at AW is not a waste of time.  Does your characterization reflect his feelings?  Or do you put words in his mouth, too?  By all means, tell us.

 RS> No, not possible. He *must* be an agent of The Conspiracy!

What Conspiracy is that?  I had in mind agencies of the Executive Branch of the U.S. government, specifically military intelligence, communications intelligence, and satellite intelligence entities.  The ones with charters that allow them to operate domestically.

It seems to me that this is a constitutional question.  As an American, you have every right to sneer at it if you want.  I guess that makes you a Good American, eh?

Best,
  Clark




--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Joshi, vile hacker/hoaxer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Dec 91 05:35:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
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In a message to All <11 Dec 91 12:07> [e-mail] wrote:

 at> The message was sent out by a certain
 at> Manoj Joshi (e-mail
 at> [e-mail]) who got into my account without my
 at> knowledge.

Andrew, thank you for setting the record straight, and you have my sympathies regarding your sociopath co-worker, Mr. Joshi.

I hope that the system administrator at your site had a few very choice words with the sick Joshi, and then broke his fingers.  :-)

What this Joshi individual posted here could have created severe difficulties for you, especially if the data you work with is genuinely sensitive stuff.  Of course, wrecked careers often prove especially amusing to the sort of people who crack into other folks' accounts and use them to post embarassing or confidential material.

Perhaps if the squalid Joshi were discharged, he might find time to read some of the Upanishads, which are part of his heritage by the sound of his name.  There may be hope for him in such enlightenment -- he might even marvel at some of the things his forefathers recorded and mused on, just as many of us do here.

If the wretch remains unenlightened, however, he'll probably crack into a pension fund somewhere and steal the savings of thousands of aged widows and orphans, and then go to jail (gaol), which may be what he really wanted all along.

Sympathetically,
  Clark



--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: We Are Not Alone
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Dec 91 07:30:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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In a message to All <12 Dec 91 12:19> Dale Wedge wrote:

 DW> From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
 DW> Date: 11 Dec 91 22:04:38 GMT
 DW> Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
 DW> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 DW> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 DW> Come to think of it, if it was not "We Are Not Alone," it might have been
 DW> one called, "UFO's:  It Has Begun."  Anyways, without looking at the video
 DW> I can't tell you.  I do have both.  Let me know if you need a copy.


Hi Dale!  Well, I checked around and don't find either title available here for rental or sale.

Could I possibly prevail on you to make copies, or to allow me to make copies?  I have 2 VCRs, a 2-head RCA and a 4-head stereo Panasonic.

Please let me know if it's okay, and an address to send blank tapes to, if it *is* okay.  If you prefer I do the copying, you can send tapes to:

Clark Matthews
The Wrong Number BBS
P.O. Box 3934
Jersey City, NY  07302


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Ron Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Dec 91 13:41:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>> <[e-mail]> <avalon.693338078@coombs>
Organization: VORT Computing    Calgary, Alberta, Canada    ...calgary!vort
Lines: 52
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:571 sci.physics:15651 sci.skeptic:18716 alt.alien.visitors:3685

In article <avalon.693338078@coombs> [e-mail] (Darren Reed) writes:
>[e-mail] (Bob Beatie) writes:
>
>
>>    I think the scissors analogy was interesting if I followed the idea,
>>but what about tachyons? As I understand it, tachyons exist ONLY above the
>>speed of light. I am not a physicist so I don't really know the theory behind
>>tachyons, but isn't that proof that the speed of light can be exceeded? Say you
>>could figure a way to convert a ship to tachyons and then re-convert when you
>>got to your destination. Well it's an idea anyway.....
>
>>                    Later,
>
>>                            Beren
>
>there isnt much wrong with exceeding the speed of light (going faster than
>light), its the getting there. Since getting to a speed faster than light
>usually involves ataining the speed of light, its very hard to exceed it
>because of energy requirements. If you have the lorentz transformations
>about, plug some values greater than c in for v and see what happens.
>You get things like time reversal, etc, so while it takes you a certain
>amount of time to get somewhere, you have become younger. I think this
>is how it works, not sure.
>

A few random thoughts on the subject:

I remember a grad student in my physics days who claimed that special rel
was garbage because "Nature abhors an asymptote."  In this case, he was
referring to the increase in mass of a particle as the speed gets close to
c.  His thinking was that at a speed arbitrarily less than c, the mass of
the particle would reach a maximum and drop precipitously to zero at c,
then into the realm of imaginary mass at FTL velocities.

I never was sure if he was pulling my leg or not, but the idea cannot
be either dismissed or accepted, so it's really kind of slippery.  For any
arbitrary maximum observed particle energy, if a sudden drop to zero rest
mass has not been observed, a follower of this hypothesis need only say
"Well we obviously haven't produced particles of high enough energy yet."
So it really wasn't a scientific concept, since it can't be refuted, only
confirmed (possibly).  Still, it's an interesting thought.

I also remember hunting through the scientific literature on FTL years ago.
It seems that the best and brightest were unable to devise a consistent,
renormalizable quantum field theory for tachyons.  (I have no idea how you
could possibly characterize particles which disappear before they exist.)
I haven't followed up on it recently;  it seemed to me to be pretty
much a dead issue at the time.

If anyone expresses an interest, I'll dig up the references and post them.

-RJH
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: My Unarius Past Life Past Life Reading
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Dec 91 18:59:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
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Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>August 18, 1974 Reading for Don Showen

>It was this entity's job to malntain and keep the communication lines open at
>all times for the vital messages coming through in energy patterns that
>displayed themselves after being demodulated by computer systems on a large
>screen that could be monitored and could be visualized as the size of
>one of the earth plane's outdoor theater screens.

>       He was finally taken off guard and destroyed by the very weapon
>which has been related to a a disintegrating machine. In other words,
>he was replaced forcefully from his position after he had run his
>course with all of the leaders in denying them their right they
>believed,  to control this machine on their own behalf.

Gee.  I've seen arguments about who should have the remote control for the TV
before, but this one sounds a bit extreme!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!ames!agate!stanford.edu!bu.edu!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: My Unarius Past Life Past Life Reading
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Dec 91 12:17:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: WorldWide Software
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>I thought some of you net folks might find this interesting or at
>least entertaining.

Always entertaining.

>He was at that time, a person who
>communicated or kept communications with the various and diversified
>peoples who were in contact with the earth plane from other worlds.

Can we get some info here about how Lemurian communication technology
was different from the net of today?  And what did they do back then
to combat cross-posting and flaming?  Who was Emily Postnews back
then?

Is it true that Lemuria was destroyed by a forged sendsys message?
--
I'll leave you with this saying:
FUN is never having to say you're SUSHI!!
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From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Something not-so-huge
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Dec 91 22:23:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: We don't need no stinkin' batches!
Lines: 8

[e-mail] (Clark Matthews) writes:

>No.  I have a problem with someone who listens to the so-called evidence and reports people with persuasive views or unique information to the FBI.  He admitted to me at MUFON 1987 that he has done this.

I have a problem with dweebs from fidonet who don't know how to
hit the bloody carriage return key.

josh
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From: [e-mail] (JIM GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Something not-so-huge
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Dec 91 02:18:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana
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Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes...
>[e-mail] (Clark Matthews) writes:
>
>>No.  I have a problem with someone who listens to the so-called evidence and reports people with persuasive views or unique information to the FBI.  He admitted to me at MUFON 1987 that he has done this.
>
>I have a problem with dweebs from fidonet who don't know how to
>hit the bloody carriage return key.

I have a problem with buttheads that think that UseNetters don't make
typos.

Maybe it's just UseNet arrogance at its finest, but I wonder.  Besides,
UseNet isn't the only network out there, is it?  It's sole virtue is that
millions of people may access it without paying a cent (and yes, this
includes me).

FidoNet has absolutely nothing to do, BTW, with whether or not one is a
dweeb.

Sorry, Clark, but I couldn't resist this one. :-)

>josh

Jim Graham

        -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
                          Neither do they speak for me.
 ______________________________________________________________________
| Internet: [e-mail]                              |
|           dolmen![e-mail]                        |
| BBS:      The PORTAL DOLMEN BBS/ParaNet ALPHA-GAMMA (sm) (9:1012/13) |
|            [phone], 24hrs.                                    |
|______________________________________________________________________|
Path: ns-mx!uunet!jwt!gary
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: INVASION!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Dec 91 23:36:42 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Waffle login)
Organization: The Matrix
Lines: 48


     This is to explain more about my recent incidents.  I assure
you that I am NOT a fraud, and as a matter of fact, everything I
have been saying is the truth and nothing but the truth.

     There is a stuggle between good and evil going on and it
appears that I am the focal point.  Although I have been diagnosed
as a paranoid schiz, I am quite in touch with reality, at least
the realities I have come to know.  I am afraid it has to do with
the cloning of my family and friends, by a group of aliens who are
known by the CIA at the very least.  They may be beings who are
able to travel inter-dimensionally, I am not quite sure about
this.

     This all started in California, where I was dragged when I
was 10.  I began to be followed around the country by people from
there as I grew older, and there seemed to be no rational reason
for this except for the fact that I made some powerful enemies
there.  However, now I know that this has been a plot against me
and my family handed down through generations of witches and
demons.  It is so important that God himself and all his angels
have been trying desperately to extricate me from it.  The aliens
have been using black magic to keep me in turmoil, along with the
angels trying to help me.  It seems that they have no concept of
our system of time (until now), and have (because of my many
hospitalizations) utilized mental hospitals to hold and replace
people I have had contact with among others.

     I had my penis cut open this time after being thrown into an
ambulance and taken to Tallahassee Memorial Hospital Emergency
Room and strapped to the stretcher, in an apparent move to prevent
me from having children.  Then I was tossed into the Psychiatric
Center of TMH, and experienced the most bizarre occurrences I have
ever been through.  Angels of every size and shape were trying to
help me get out.  But the forces of evil, and my own stupidity
went against me.  Although I only spent maybe two weeks in there,
I emerged with the knowledge that I had helped the aliens to learn
not only our language, but our system of time as well.  I had to
do it in order to escape.  But it may just backfire on them.

     They are still creating clones of people in order to further
their goals, of which I am uncertain.  But do not be discouraged.
They will not succeed.  The power of God is in me, and they know
it.  There are other things they do not know, which is that they
have messed with the wrong person.  I have great hope for the
future now that I know who they really are.

          Gary Stollman
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews
From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Ovotron Newsletter for Jan-Feb 1992 (49K-LONG)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Dec 91 21:29:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 26

In a message to All <16 Dec 91 17:56> R Voisey wrote:

 RV> From: [e-mail] (R Voisey)
 RV> Date: 16 Dec 91 14:14:29 GMT
 RV> Organization: Bristol Polytechnic, England
 RV> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 RV> Newsgroups:
 RV> alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,talk.rel
 RV> lt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,talk.rel RV> s


 RV> I daresay my cynical British outlook on
 RV> life will lead to my eternal damnation,
 RV> but I really find it incredible that there are people who cannot see this
 RV> for what it really is!

May there always be an England!  :-)

Best,
  Clark


--
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pious Aztec Frauds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Dec 91 21:35:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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In a message to All <17 Dec 91 12:08> Joshua Geller wrote:

 JG> From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
 JG> Date: 17 Dec 91 04:33:40 GMT
 JG> Organization: We don't need no stinkin' batches!
 JG> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 JG> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

[... much stuff trimmed]
 JG> The mayas, generally weren't participating in this; they gave alvarado
 JG> some major hard times some years later.

 JG> josh

Thanks, Josh -- I bow to your obvious expertise.  Still, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Cortez's main difficulties were with the Spaniards -- the Governor of Hispanola, really -- and not with the conquered indian tribes.

Anyway, thanks for the info & Season's Greetings!

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Barry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Dec 91 07:00:10 GMT
Organization: The Inquiring Mind  1 204 488-1607
Lines: 34

I am not certain if this is the correct group in which to post this
message, however, considering the underlying theory held by some
on this group, that the government is engaged in a massive coverup
of UFO sightings and contacts, I felt there is definitely some
kinship to be found here.

I just finished seeing the new OLIVER STONE film "JFK".  W O W !!!

If you are interested in the Kennedy assassination, have read a few
books, and have followed the eb and flow of evidence and theory
over the past 28 years you are not really going to be surprised by
what you see in this movie, but you will nevertheless be very
impressed by the stark explicit nature of Oliver Stone's
presentation.  You will find very appealing Stone's conclusion that
the assassination of President Kennedy was, in effect, a coup
d'etat, conceived by the highest levels of the US government,
influenced by giant military contractors, and carried out by CIA
covert operations with the cooperation of the FBI and Dallas
police.

I was 7 years old when the assassination took place and over the
years I have read some of the books and followed the documentaries
with interest.  Never have I seen such a powerful, straight forward
presentation of the evidence which appeals to one's common sense
and refuses to be taken in by government double talk and the
outrageous theories presented by the Warren Commission.  Jim
Garrison should be considered a national hero.

This is a film we all should see, and I welcome your comments.

        --Barry

[e-mail]
The Inquiring Mind BBS, Winnipeg, Manitoba  204 488-1607
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stan!kj
From: [e-mail] (KJ Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Heliotropic Space - Part 3
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Dec 91 18:54:35 GMT
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc.
Lines: 125


This is part three of the Heliotropic Space Series

Hello again,

I would like to pose some ideas about time and infinite
mass. It seems safe to say that time (four-space) consists
of the past, the present, and the future. The reality
we experience only has three dimensions, we do not have
the dimensionality of time. If we did, then you could see
yourself walking up to the console to start this session
and see yourself as you logoff and every point in between,
all at once, continuously. This is similiar to viewing
a film as a whole strip laid out on a light table, being
able to see all the frames at once, continuously.
Three-space has no time per-say, it is equivalent instead
to the way we normally see a film, one frame at a time,
one flowing into the next. Our minds remember what we just
just saw and gives us the impression of time.

Now on to the subject of infinite mass.
If you can imagine a a super high speed movie camera
(with an infinite amount of film) taking pictures of you
from the moment of conception throughout your entire life
and including your death. That movie would represent the
four dimensional you. Once you break the bounds of
three-space (however) you become the time dimensional
being represented by that movie(including all the mass).
Consider a point on the planet (the size of a person),
consider the line traced by that point as the earth
rotates, as the earth orbits the sun, as the solar system
moves through galaxy, as the galaxy spins, etc... the
total mass of that person with respect to time quickly
approaches infinity if viewed from four-space. I suggest
that is what is meant by mass approaching infinity as
you approach the speed of light ( break the bounds of
three-space). If this is a plausible explaination, then
only the mass present in three-space (the original mass)
is being accelerated to the speed of light, the time-mass
is and always was in four-space. In four-space the mass
is already infinite. As you reach 'c' you become aware
of your time-mass already present in four-space.

Another subject... I invented (never built one) a
gravitometer (I guess you could call it that). It was
to be contructed with a central piezio-electric crystal
sphere (grown aboard the shuttle - very low gravity) with
inductive sensors surrounding it like the skin of an
orange. I theorized that whenever the 'gravitometer'
was moved through a gravity field, it would stress the
crystal and produce an electric current at some point on
the outer inductive shell.  The drawing that I made of it
(in 1980) looks almost identical to the 'crystal ball'
particle detector presently used at the Stanford Linear
Accelerator 'SPEAR'. It was detailed in Scientific
American some years later in an article about Quantum
Physics.

Yet another subject... I was playing around with my
helical graphs (I got some overhead transparencies) of
various curves (sinewaves are two-space representations
of helicalwaves) and I was superimposing them at various
angles when I saw something really neat.  I was able
to align parts of the curve to create a figure-eight
pattern. Now if you translate the curves into let's say
an orbital path of a planet then the figure-eight path
allowed a dual coincidence of the paths. In other words,
if you were travelling along one path you could literally
step off onto the other path (because they were aligned)
at that point, then travel along this new path a while
till the next alignment and then step back onto the
original path. The important concept here is that the
helical paths not only represent physical locations
but also the space-time geometry, and by changing paths
you also change your location in space-time. By stepping
back onto the original path at an earlier point you
have effectively travelled backward in time. The direction
you traverse the path determines wheither you time shift
forwards or backwards. (I'm sitting here right now
looking at this superimposed graph, trying to figure out
a way to explain what I'm seeing) I guess you have to do
it yourself. The curves really line up at two different
points, if they were paths of two spheres I could jump
from one to the other, ride it the other direction for
a while then jump back to the first at an earlier point.
I could then repeat this forever if I so chose. I have no
clue how you would find a path travelling the opposite
direction though. Maybe it's all relative.

I came up with a more concrete version of Heliotropic
Geometry after pondering a Rubic's Cube. I wanted to
write a program to solve the Cube. So, I first had to
model the cube. I wrote down numbers for each face-unit
which described the starting or rather desired ending
position. Then (I figured) I could input the current
position of each scrambled face-unit and following the
rules of movement, let the computer determine the
quickest combination of moves to restore the orignal
pattern. All well and good. I never wrote the program.
But what I did do, was to mentally add more sides to the
cube till it became Rubic's Tower and then more and more
sides till it became a mathematical representation of
Heliotropic Geometry. Just like linear algebra is made up
of an imaginary three dimensional grid, infinitely small,
with numbers at each intersection, my new geometric model
had a infinte number of shells, and an infinite number
of helical lines with numbers at each intersection.
I would still like to develope a program to allow me to
work within such a model. Can anybody out there provide
me with a flow chart of how to start such a program??
I can program in 'C'.

I'm suprised that three people have asked where they can
get more info on this... As far as I know there isn't
any.. I developed this on my own. I have never tried
to publish anything and figured that if I could think of
it others could too and maybe they had the background
to do something with it. Sure I would like to do
something great, invent a new math to carry us into the
next century, but if it really does have merit then I
would be happy to see anybody do something with it. I
guess I'm taking the first step by posting these ideas
at all.  More after I decipher my notes...

KJ Sullivan 12/91
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440
From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Dec 91 15:51:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 47
Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] (Barry) says:

>I am not certain if this is the correct group in which to post this
>message, however, considering the underlying theory held by some
>on this group, that the government is engaged in a massive coverup
>of UFO sightings and contacts, I felt there is definitely some
>kinship to be found here.
>
>I just finished seeing the new OLIVER STONE film "JFK".  W O W !!!
>
>If you are interested in the Kennedy assassination, have read a few
>books, and have followed the eb and flow of evidence and theory
>over the past 28 years you are not really going to be surprised by
>what you see in this movie, but you will nevertheless be very
>impressed by the stark explicit nature of Oliver Stone's
>presentation.  You will find very appealing Stone's conclusion that
>the assassination of President Kennedy was, in effect, a coup
>d'etat, conceived by the highest levels of the US government,
>influenced by giant military contractors, and carried out by CIA
>covert operations with the cooperation of the FBI and Dallas
>police.
>
>I was 7 years old when the assassination took place and over the
>years I have read some of the books and followed the documentaries
>with interest.  Never have I seen such a powerful, straight forward
>presentation of the evidence which appeals to one's common sense
>and refuses to be taken in by government double talk and the
>outrageous theories presented by the Warren Commission.  Jim
>Garrison should be considered a national hero.
>
>This is a film we all should see, and I welcome your comments.
>
>        --Barry
>
>[e-mail]
>The Inquiring Mind BBS, Winnipeg, Manitoba  204 488-1607
>

You would probably be served better by going to the alt.conspiracy Sig
to discuss this.

Anyways, after much research on the subject, I think that it is safe to
say that Oswald was the lone assassin.

The JFK Film is only a film and not based on truth.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!unlimvis
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stan Deyo and UFOs Video available
Message-ID: <422800013@peg>
Date: 20 Dec 91 23:13:00 GMT
References: <422800009@peg>
Lines: 3
Nf-ID: #R:peg:422800009:peg:422800013:000:82
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!unlimvis    Dec 20 19:13:00 1991


What kind words from "manuscript". Its no wonder we can't get
it all on together.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!zazen!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!star.dec.com!dipirro
From: [e-mail] (Steve DiPirro)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Dec 91 20:36:22 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 25


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes...
>
>     This is to explain more about my recent incidents.  I assure
>you that I am NOT a fraud, and as a matter of fact, everything I
>have been saying is the truth and nothing but the truth.
>

Normally, I'm read-only in this group...but this was just too good
to pass up. I hope you keep posting this stuff. It's great. I find
it very hard to believe that you've been diagnosed as a paranoid
schiz. It's a good thing you told us! I think I may work with a lot
of these clones. They dress funny, smell bad, have glazed looks in
their eyes, and have no personalities to speak of. What do you think?

Keep up the fight for us Earthlings! Our fate is in your hands!
That's too bad about them slicing your penis open like that. If you
have the details of this written down anywhere, could you cross-post
it to alt.tasteless? Thanks.

------------
Steve DiPirro        [e-mail]
                     --or-- ...!decwrl!star.dec.com!dipirro
                     --or-- [e-mail]
------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!rutgers!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Something not-so-huge
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Dec 91 05:24:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
>
>I have a problem with dweebs from fidonet who don't know how to
>hit the bloody carriage return key.

I've seen enough articles without carriage returns coming from Fidonet that
I'm starting to wonder whether it's the system rather than the user.
Although it's not *all* the articles...  Hmmmm...  Maybe it's the editor or
something?  Maybe it's wrapping the lines on-screen but not in the file?
Don't look at me, I only use it, and not really often.

Anyway, I definitely appreciate Paranet's presence here!

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!mips.mitek.com!utacfd.uta.edu!utagraph.uta.edu!utacnvx.uta.edu!rpcirp
From: [e-mail] (Dr. Ard Anjomani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Dec 91 08:26:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Texas at Arlington
Lines: 29
Nntp-Posting-Host: utacnvx.uta.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dale Wedge) writes:

>
>You would probably be served better by going to the alt.conspiracy Sig
>to discuss this.
>
>Anyways, after much research on the subject, I think that it is safe to
>say that Oswald was the lone assassin.
>

One thing that few people know about..  Oswald had faild basic marksmanship
in the United States Marine Corps, this info comes to me from a former Drill
Instructer who had access to Oswald's records...

One shot would have been lucky..  Three.........

>
>The JFK Film is only a film and not based on truth.
>

True, as the only Truth that is official is what the administration wanted
to be heard..  Read your history, Johnston had the motivation to order it..
Johnston was not a man to be humiliated or disgraced and then to take it
lightly [Was his Scandanavian trip the breaking point?]...

But then again, maybe I'm wrong..  Maybe the KGB REALLY DID teach Oswald what
the Marines couldn't : HOW TO SHOOT STRAIGHT!  Highly unlikely though...
----
My opinions are mine and if you think otherwise, then that's your problem!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Something not-so-huge
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Dec 91 02:02:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
>[e-mail] (Clark Matthews) writes:
>
>>No.  I have a problem with someone who listens to the so-called evidence and reports people with persuasive views or unique information to the FBI.  He admitted to me at MUFON 1987 that he has done this.
>
>I have a problem with dweebs from fidonet who don't know how to
>hit the bloody carriage return key.
>
>josh

And _you_ were Politically Correct in pointing this out,right? :-)

Gosh! It gives me such a fuzzy warm feeling knowing that you are on
*our* side. I could scarcely imagine the horrors if some poor smuck
might slip up and break one of your precious rules..

It..might cause you to suffer a nervous breakdown or worse...allow
you to accept typos in articles. Arggg! A fate *surely* worse than
death itself! :^_)

The "dweeb" that you're alluding to, and having conversed with him
on various echoes on the BBS side is certainly very knowledgeable
on the subject of UFO's *and* he runs his own BBS (Wrong Number BBS).

S'matter...underpants too tight again?

:-) :-)

Don

--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <1991Dec24.170830.22877@anasaz>
Date: 24 Dec 91 17:08:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 65

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Barry) writes:

... stuff deleted ...
->
->I just finished seeing the new OLIVER STONE film "JFK".  W O W !!!
->
I've seen it too and agree it's very good. Oliver Stone is an excellent
director but it's obvious he's fixated on Viet Nam.  This movie is
FICTION but many, like yourself, are taking it for a documentary.

Stone took groups of facts and added other FICTIONAL facts where necessary
to flesh out the story.  He himself freely admits that, calling it "poetic
license."  His critics have warned about what is apparently happening -
people taking the movie as truth.

Stone's "JFK" is a fictional tale about a coup in the United States using
real people and events as a backdrop.

... stuff deleted ...
->
->I was 7 years old when the assassination took place and over the
->years I have read some of the books and followed the documentaries
->with interest.  Never have I seen such a powerful, straight forward
->presentation of the evidence which appeals to one's common sense
->and refuses to be taken in by government double talk and the
->outrageous theories presented by the Warren Commission.  Jim
->Garrison should be considered a national hero.
->
I was 23 and followed the events as they happened.  Jim Garrison is a
bozo. He had no evidence whatsoever other than his own speculation and
that changed almost daily.  He used the prosecution to gain national
recognition and, I suppose, to advance his own career.  The case ended
when the jury laughed him out of the court room.

What Stone and all the other conspiracy advocates ignore is Lee Harvey Oswald.
Lee Harvey Oswald was a loser.  There was no reason or advantage for any
conspirator to include him in a plot to assasinate the President.  That
hypothesis only arises out of hindsight at events that actually occured.

No conspirator could have forseen that the trajectory of the fatal shots
would be questioned.  No conspirator could have forseen that there would
be no witnesses to the shooting (gunman) given the thousands of people present
and the extensive movie and TV coverage.  No conspirator could have
forseen that all the police and secret service agents would fail to
capture the gunman.  So what role would that conspirator have for Lee
Harvey Oswald?

If there was indeed a shooter on the "grassy knoll", the planners would have
had to expect witnesses, established bullet trajectories and the capture
or death of the shooter(s).  No way could they plan on these gunmen getting
away leaving Lee Oswald to take the blame.  No way could they plan that
nobody would scientifically establish the direction from which the shots
came so the "fall guy" theory doesn't make sense.  Therefore, it wouldn't
make any sense to include a loser in the plot.

Oliver Stone makes good movies but none of them are documentaries.  They
all take poetic license to re-arrange and extrpolate facts to make a good
story.  Unlike his other movies, "JFK" takes even more license by making
up facts as needed to keep the story moving.  It's unfortunate so many
will learn their "history" of Kennedy's assisination from a highly
fictionalized movie.
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stan!kj
From: [e-mail] (KJ Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Heliotropic Space (final posting)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Dec 91 23:25:24 GMT
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc.
Lines: 97



This is the fourth part of my rantings and ravings about
Heliotropic space.

You know, one of the world's greatest inventions was the concept
of zero. Having something to represent nothing.  Three-space is
the third dimension and contains everything that can be measured
by length, width, & height, it contains everything in the
universe.  Zero-space by definition has only one dimensionless
point.  Now within zero-space there can be no other points
which exist separately from the one point of zero-space.
In three-space we could perceive multiple separate and
distinct zero-spaces, but within zero-space, they are all the
same point.  The distance between zero and zero is zero.
So, if you have one zero-space here and another one a great
distance away in the three-space, although we perceive a
distance separating the two points, they are actually the very
same point.  To take advantage of this would certainly spell
complete and absolute destruction to whatever entered zero-space.
But the difference between theories (which deal with ideals) and
true reality which has uncertainty and a margin of error is what
should allow us to approach zero-space without totally
annihilating all characteristics of dimensionality. In other
words, we should be able to warp space-time without a complete
mass-energy conversion. I mean you don't have to be at ground
zero
to experience the effects of a nuclear blast, so why not just
go near the void to take advantage of the dimensional warping.
Here's where I propose something weird..(yes I believe that UFOs
are real, okay I said it, happy?) but really, what if they can
generate a small zero-space, that automatically ties them to the
next (for that matter, all) zero-space.  How could you determine
which one (I'm viewing this from three-space, so there can be
different zero-spaces) you would go to.  When I was designing
radio transceivers we would isolate signals with a common
frequency and block all of the others, they were still there
but we just didn't listen to them.  I would guess that something
similar could be done to isolate two three-space representations
of zero-space from all of the others.

In a previous posting I suggested an experiment using a null-
phased laser to create a zero-space (who knows if it would work)
well I understand that fusion experiments use six very high power
lasers to fire and annihilate deuterium/tritium? and it releases
significantly more energy than it uses.  I propose that if you
provided another place it could go to (a second zero-space), then
we would see the matter/energy transmitted instead of being
released through fusion.  We simply give it no other place to
exist.  Stephen Hawkins suggested that if we have black holes
then we should also have white holes where the matter is
'transmitted' and spewed out.  He also suggested that there are
numerous super tiny black holes (with ultra short lifespans) all
around us. Well, okay, maybe..  But if it occurs in nature, then
why can't we do it ourselves? Yeah, yeah, I know, it's hard.
Fusion is hard, fission is hard (to do it right) everything is
hard. Thinking up this stuff is hard too. What reference book
do I look in to get the answer? There isn't one.  You know, I
read the translation on Einstein's GR and SR. The first thing
he starts off with is setting up this reference frame with all
these one meter rods.  He completely bypasses the possibility
of the existence of a negative one meter rod. I mean he just
tries to explain four-space, he never ventures beyond the top
half of my graph.  Well I have a lot more graph to deal with.
Which brings up another issue.

Travelling faster than the speed of light is physically
impossible according to Einstein, at least in a linear
direction. What about vibrating, just moving back and forth
a fraction of an inch at the speed of light, wouldn't that
work?  After all, Edison wanted to use direct current to
power all his new light bulbs, it was too energy expensive.
That's why we all use AC to transmit power. What happens at
frequencies greater than the speed of light? Somebody who's
not as tired as I am, please figure out what the equivalent
frequency would be.  It ought to be way up there in the
super high or very extremely high range.  Also...getting
back to the concept that 'you can't go the speed of light
because mass increases infinitely and it would take an
infinite amount of energy to propel an infinite mass'..
bull-tinkle..the infinite time-mass is already there, at this
very second, while you are sitting there not moving at all.
All we ever have to do is accelerate the three-dimensional
mass we started with.  You don't have to try to accelerate
an infinite mass at the speed of light, once you reach
that velocity, you become the infinite time-mass that was
always there. In three-space, the third impartial observer
would only see (or rather not see) the original mass you
started with streaking like red & blue blazes across the
night sky, he would not see this humongous convoluted time-mass
which you became. For that matter, you are using
three-space energy to accelerate three-space mass, you
couldn't move a four-space object with three-space energy.
A four-space object IS movement, just like a time exposure.
Think of the blur as a solid object.

Bee-dee, bee-dee, that's all folks...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Dec 91 04:42:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Barry) writes:
>I am not certain if this is the correct group in which to post this
>message, however, considering the underlying theory held by some
>on this group, that the government is engaged in a massive coverup
>of UFO sightings and contacts, I felt there is definitely some
>kinship to be found here.

I don't know if you know it, but there are people who believe that JFK's
death was UFO-related.  But I don't really want to get into that again.

As far as I know, there's a group called "alt.conspiracy" which would
probably be best for this subject.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Stan Deyo and UFOs Video available
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Dec 91 04:56:43 GMT
References: <422800009@peg> <422800013@peg>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 25

In article <422800013@peg> [e-mail] writes:
>
>What kind words from "manuscript". Its no wonder we can't get
>it all on together.

If you're talking about the person who said Deyo was a Christian
Fundamentalist (it's hard to tell, since I expire news pretty fast and
you didn't quote anything), I agree that just holding those views doesn't
necessarily mean his UFO/energy data is a fraud.  It might make some people
think twice about supporting him financially though.  (Face it, how much
does a videotape cost?  Someone's got to be making money off this.)  And if
I remember rightly, the author was complaining that the announcement had
found its way into a pagan newsgroup somewhere.  Again, since the tapes
were apparently being offered as a commercial enterprise rather than purely
for the sake of spreading information, I can see how people might be
offended at that.  (For that matter, I'm surprised that no-one has jumped
on you publicly about advertising on Usenet.  You're not supposed to do
that, but I'm not going to complain as long as nobody does it continuously
and it's research-oriented.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!emory!utkcs2!willis.cis.uab.edu!nntp.msstate.edu!Isis.MsState.Edu!cee1
From: [e-mail] (Charles Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: *** TV ALERT ***
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Dec 91 18:43:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: Mississippi State University
Lines: 33

[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:

>The Christmas episode of "Unsolved Mysteries" will be a rebroadcast of the
>season premiere featuring the Bentwaters/Rendlesham case.

   A total exact re-broadcast or updates???

>alt.alien.visitors readers take note:  Stanton Friedman was on Chuck
>Harder's radio show "For The People" today and he mentioned the show, but
>he didn't say anything about the government revelation that was rumored
>here earlier (if one person constitutes a rumor.)  (More on what he did say
>in a later article -- nothing on Bentwaters, but interesting.)

   Is it a rumor or not, where did, whoever posted about it get their
   information?????

>comp.sys.amiga.misc readers take note:  According to ".info" magazine, the
>special effects were done on a Video Toaster.

   I have heard [and read in an Amiga magazine] that most all of Unsolved
   Mysteries effects.. even the openers are done with the Video Toaster.


>--
> *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
> Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
> 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
> Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
--
---
Charles-Edward 'Hip-Hoppin' Evans
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!emory!utkcs2!willis.cis.uab.edu!nntp.msstate.edu!Isis.MsState.Edu!cee1
From: [e-mail] (Charles Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Unsolved Mysteeries Xmas day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Dec 91 06:13:10 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University
Lines: 11

As I skimmed thru the new TV Guide at the local grocery store, it seems
the Orange Bowl will be on at 7 CST Christmas Evening on NBC. But our
local paper says that The Seasom Premiere Episode will be shown??

Was it just a rumour?

--
---
Charles-Edward 'Hip-Hoppin' Evans
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!ames!sgi!cdp!baltiresourc
From: [e-mail] (Baltimore Resources)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Dec 91 02:16:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail]:-2090892465:cdp:1296700003:000:467
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!baltiresourc    Dec 24 18:16:00 1991



Stone's "JFK" _may_ be a cover-up itself. What if Kennedy was about to
go public with MJ-12, Dreamland, etc. What if the Mafia/Hoffa connection
had to do with needing "teamsters" to transport raw materials for such
mega-projects as Dreamland? Who was the first president to fully realize
"the horrible truth"?

As Donald Sutherland said, both on and off the screen,_Why would a president
need to be elimated, who would profit, and who had the power to cover it up?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Dec 91 05:08:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 52

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dale Wedge) writes:
>
>In a previous article, [e-mail] (Barry) says:
>
>>I am not certain if this is the correct group in which to post this
>>message, however, considering the underlying theory held by some
>>on this group, that the government is engaged in a massive coverup
>>of UFO sightings and contacts, I felt there is definitely some
>>kinship to be found here.
>>
>>Garrison should be considered a national hero.
>>
>>This is a film we all should see, and I welcome your comments.
>>
>>        --Barry
>>
>>[e-mail]
>>The Inquiring Mind BBS, Winnipeg, Manitoba  204 488-1607
>>
>
>You would probably be served better by going to the alt.conspiracy Sig
>to discuss this.
>
>Anyways, after much research on the subject, I think that it is safe to
>say that Oswald was the lone assassin.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Aha! This chestnut is the heart of the issue. I would say that you are dead
wrong in your assumption. What evidence can you cite to say that Oswald
acted alone? This is the same dis-info that Jerry Ford is promulgating.

Also, you are right about moving this to alt.conspiracy. I have a batch
of files that I'll be posting there on this subject.

>The JFK Film is only a film and not based on truth.

IMHO, this film has stirred up the leading spin control media pundits
and they are VERY upset that Stone _dare_ make the movie. Heheh..I
love it when Cokey Roberts,Robert Novak,George Will,etc get so worked
up over "just a movie"...some one's ox is about to be gored :-)

Don





--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!bcm!DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU!skywalker
From: [e-mail] (Timothy B. Reynolds)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Unsolved Mysteries
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Dec 91 01:39:45 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: X-Ray Crystallography / Howard Hughes Medical Institute
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: dino.qci.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu

Oh well, same Woodbridge/Bentwaters story. I guess the big "news"
was bunk.

Good thing I didn't go out on a limb on this one.....

I guess it's back to "INVASION"

Skywalker
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!linus!alliant!merk!spdcc!das.harvard.edu!husc-news.harvard.edu!hsdndev!rutgers!apple!claris!szebra!spectrx!system
From: ** Sender Unknown **
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Dec 91 17:12:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: SPECTROX SYSTEMS [phone] Silicon Valley, Ca
Lines: 16

[e-mail] (Baltimore Resources) writes:

> Stone's "JFK" _may_ be a cover-up itself. What if Kennedy was about to
> go public with MJ-12, Dreamland, etc. What if the Mafia/Hoffa connection
> had to do with needing "teamsters" to transport raw materials for such
> mega-projects as Dreamland? Who was the first president to fully realize
> "the horrible truth"?

I have heard of MJ-12 and Know basically what it is, but I have never heard
of Dreamland.  Could someone enlighten me as to what it is.  And maybe it
was Jimmy Hoffa who was the alien who shot JFK?  Merry X-Mas everyone!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Anderer, System Operator                [e-mail]
SPECTROX SYSTEMS [phone]              szebra!spectrx!system
"Guess who's coming to dinner" -Chekov Star Trek VI
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From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pious Aztec Frauds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Dec 91 15:24:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: We don't need no stinkin' batches!
Lines: 37

[e-mail] (Clark Matthews) writes:

|>In a message to All <17 Dec 91 12:08> Joshua Geller wrote:

|> JG> From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
|> JG> Date: 17 Dec 91 04:33:40 GMT
|> JG> Organization: We don't need no stinkin' batches!
|> JG> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
|> JG> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

|>[... much stuff trimmed]
|> JG> The mayas, generally weren't participating in this; they gave alvarado
|> JG> some major hard times some years later.

|> JG> josh

|>Thanks, Josh -- I bow to your obvious expertise.  Still, I seem to
|>remember reading somewhere that Cortez's main difficulties were with
|>the Spaniards -- the Governor of Hispanola, really -- and not with
|>the conquered indian tribes.

it is true that cortez had problems with the governor of hispanola;
however, he beat the agent sent to arrest him rather handily (it's an
interesting story, but I won't go into it right now). Cuitlihuac, on
the other hand, did manage to kill something like 2/3 of his total forces
(after he had reinforced his original men with the guys sent to arrest him).
After the conquest *cortez* didn't have any major problems, and the reason
for this is that he was (for his time) a humane and enlightened ruler. The
fact that whatever oppression the spanish meted out was considerably less
than what the tenochca meted out didn't hurt either.

I was, however, talking about what happened when alvarado went to conquer
mayapan.

BTW, sorry about the fidonet dweebs remark; I was having a bad day.

josh
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Something not-so-huge
Message-ID: <422800014@peg>
Date: 26 Dec 91 23:32:00 GMT
References: <1739039068@[e-mail].o>
Lines: 9
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail].o:1739039068:peg:422800014:000:228
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!qolight    Dec 26 19:32:00 1991


Josh...great new word you've just used...dweebs....Just as a matter of
curiousity...what is your meaning for this new word?  Dweebs...Dweebs...
Dweebs....it's gotta great ring to it!!!

Regards...

Photon
Interstellar Travellar
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From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: My Unarius Past Life Past Life Reading
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Dec 91 23:42:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 32
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:18795 talk.religion.newage:8366 alt.alien.visitors:3713

[e-mail] writes:

> I thought some of you net folks might find this interesting or at
> least entertaining.  I spoke at one of the Unarius weekend events
> called the Conclave of Light Celebration. I spoke on Biofeedback and
> Reincarnation.  Apparently they liked my talk so much that I got
> invited to dinner and received the following past life reading.
> Ioshanna is Ruth Norman.  Ioshanna is/was her archangel? name.  She,
> her two channels and I were sitting at a table in her home.  The
> brother came through one of the channels.  Personally I think thats a
> great way to handle things.  Ruth didn t have to do any of the work of
> channeling.  Maybe I shouldn t get this personal on the net.  But oh,
> what the heck.  This may explain some of my prior out bursts on the
> net. :-)
>
        Actually, the Unarians are one of the funnier, but relatively benign,
UFO cult in America today,. For a packet or truly entertaining material, full
of nifty pictures of Ruth and all the wonderful people she's been
channelling, simply write to:

        Unarius
        145 S. Magnolia Ave.
        El cajon, CA 92020

        When I got my packet, I didn't stop laughing for _hours_.

Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano
[e-mail]
Organizer of the Delaware Valley Skeptics (though opinions posted are my own,
and not representative).
"Meanwhile, in the darkness and void, Jean-Paul Sartre was a-movin' and a
groovin'." -- Crow, Mystery Science Theater 3000.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  *** TV ALERT ***
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Dec 91 18:38:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Evans) writes:
>
>   A total exact re-broadcast or updates???

It's now the day after. (I don't know where your article, dated the 21st,
got stuck.)

There was no update on the Bentwaters story.  No announcements or leaks,
either.

>   Is it a rumor or not, where did, whoever posted about it get their
>   information?????

It was posted here by Sara J. Cupps, [e-mail], on the 16th.  I
e-mailed her asking for more information, and I haven't heard anything
since.  To be fair, she might not have logged in since then.

>   I have heard [and read in an Amiga magazine] that most all of Unsolved
>   Mysteries effects.. even the openers are done with the Video Toaster.

I had heard that they were considering using the Toaster for more episodes
after seeing the Bentwaters episode.  I never heard anything about it being
used for the opening.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteeries Xmas day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Dec 91 18:43:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Evans) writes:
>As I skimmed thru the new TV Guide at the local grocery store, it seems
>the Orange Bowl will be on at 7 CST Christmas Evening on NBC. But our
>local paper says that The Seasom Premiere Episode will be shown??

Unsolved Mysteries was on at 8 EST here.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
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From: [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Heliotropic/Zero Space Flapdoodle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Dec 91 15:24:50 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines: 21
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11



    To paraphrase the late Percival Lowell:

    "His theory is quite properly designated Zero, and is nothing
     at all."

    Come now...you can't be serious when you claim that two physically
    separate points ("zero spaces") are in fact the SAME POINT (or
    "zero space").  I can only assume you are--as the British would
    say--"having us on", and intend the Heliotropic Theory to be
    a sort of early 1992 April's Fool joke.

    Incidentally...You wouldn't be any relation to the fellow who
    posted that mondo-bizarro "Reciprocal System" gibble-gabble
    that postulates that the Universe is just 'motion' made up
    of 'units', or some such rot, would you?

    T.R. Stone
    University of Nebraska-Omaha
    Home of the Toughest Organic Chemistry Instructors in the Galaxy
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Jerome Clark's Aussie winge
Message-ID: <422800015@peg>
Date: 27 Dec 91 23:43:00 GMT
Lines: 22
Nf-ID: #N:peg:422800015:000:1266
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!nexus    Dec 27 19:43:00 1991


In reference to Jerome Clark's winge about conspiracy theorists in
the Austraian UFO Conference in 1991.
*1) Jerome's talk was supposedly a summary of conspiracy theory
history.  To the Aussies who came to hear about UFOs it was
in-talk gossip and gibberish.  Most attendees had never heard of
Cooper, and those who had heard of Cooper/Lear or Lazar wanted to
know at least what they were saying.  Jerome used his position as
"international" guest speaker to ridicule the personalities of all
three.  I don't know wheteher cooper et al are for real or not,
but to sloander their characters and then not even let the
audience inow what they are on about was nonsense.
* Re Bill Chalker being asked if he is working for the CIA - all I
can say is "he asks for it".  He has the dubios honour of being
australia's only UFO "researcher" who has been granted access by
the RAAF.  He then created his reputation by writing about what he
saw in those files.  But, he never lets anyone else check those
files for themselves.  Question. Why him?  Talk to the guy - he
should be a researcher for Klass, or the Australian Skeptics.  All
in all Jerome Clarks talk did not impress most Aussies.  We did
not go to hear insults, we wanted to get information.  It was
sadly lacking.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ASTRONet in Australia
Message-ID: <422800016@peg>
Date: 27 Dec 91 23:51:00 GMT
Lines: 13
Nf-ID: #N:peg:422800016:000:614
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!nexus    Dec 27 19:51:00 1991


Attention all Aussie users!!!!

I just wanted to draw your attention to ASTRONet, a fast growing
network of BBS's across Australia and New Zealand covering UFO,
Suppressed and overlooked sciences, new age stuff & the
unexplained.  Please do not stop your support of Pegasus and
EarthNet though, but if you are interested in this area you can
call the main BBS - Zoist BBS on 03 467 8090 (24hrs) .  ASTRONet
also echoes some message areas of MUFONet the international UFO
network from the USA.  Ever since Paranet cut us off, we have been
using MUFONet to keep us  in touch Hope to talk to some of you in
ASTRONet.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteeries [sic] Xmas day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Dec 91 14:53:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Wazmodyne Systems
Lines: 5
Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3

... was a repeat of the Bentwaters episode.

(Obviously another Vegas-style announcement.  Check your sources, Sarah!)
--
              [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Calvin Knows Better
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Dec 91 15:44:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines: 37
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11



    If you think that the subject of UFOs and abductions hasn't
    penetrated fairly deeply into the public consciousness, think
    again: there was a Sunday "Calvin and Hobbes" strip that had
    Calvin reciting a poem...

    While lying on my back to make an angel in the snow,
    I saw a greenish craft appear--a giant UFO!

    A strange, unearthly hum it made!  It hovered overhead!
    And aliens were moving 'round in viewports glowing red!

    I tried to run for cover, but a hook that they had low'rd
    snagged me by my overcoat, and hoisted me aboard!

    Even then, I tried to fight, and though they numbered many,
    I poked them in their compound eyes, and pulled on their antennae!

    It was no use! they dragged me to a platform, tied me up,
    and wired to my cranium a fiendish suction cup!

    They turned it on, and a current coursed across my cerebellum
    Coaxing from my brain tissue the things I wouldn't tell 'em!

    All the math I ever learned, the numbers and equations
    Were mechanic'ly removed in this brain-draining operation!...

    ...My escape was an adventure (I won't tell you what I did);
    Suffice to say, I cannot add--so ask some other kid.

 Have a happy New Year, everyone.  And don't let the Greys get you.

 T.R. Stone
 University of Nebraska-Omaha
 Home of the Toughest Organic Chemistry Instructors on This or
 Any other Planet in the Known Universe
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: GBUFOS.N91 - Recent Gulf Breeze Stuff
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Dec 91 19:17:59 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 145
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3721 alt.conspiracy:9596 sci.skeptic:18805


Grabbed this off the Fido UFO echo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---BEGIN GBUFOS.N91 ---------------------------------------------------


Message #4641 - UFO
   Date : 24-Dec-91  0:10
   From : John Powell
     To : All
Subject : Recent Gulf Breeze Stuff
Replies : -> #5173
The following file is GBUFOS.N91
-+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following articles appeared recently in the The Islander (Pensacola, FL)
and the Gulf Breeze Sentinel. They deal with October and November 1991 UFO
sightings in the Gulf Breeze, Florida area and point out the resemblance of
the observed craft to that photographed by Ed and Frances Walters back in
late 87 and early 88.

 -------------------------------------------------

 Gulf Breeze Sentinel (November 14, 1991)
  (letter to the editor by Donald Ware)

  I am one of the many people living outside of your community who subscribe
to the Gulf Breeze Sentinel because of its excellent record on reporting the
significant local UFO activity.  I am concerned about the lack of such
reporting since the paper was purchased over a month ago.  Significant
sightings continue to be witnessed by many people in Gulf Breeze and
photographed on film and video.  I believe 10 November was the 103rd sighting
recorded there in the past year.

  As a primary investigator on the Gulf Breeze, FL UFO encounters, I am
convinced Ed and Frances and others were ALLOWED (author's emphasis) such
good photographic opportunities four years ago because the occupants wanted
people to see the pictures.  Now, I think they want the people with a desire
to do so to see their vehicles. The recent photographic evidence indicates
the UFOs frequenting Gulf Breeze now are Gulf Breeze type-2 craft as
photographed most clearly by Frances Walters on 26 Jan. 88.

   I have studied all I could find about these alien vehicles since I saw
seven over Washington, DC in 1952. I know well 60 people who have been on
board.  I know several credible people in our area who report frequent
telepathic contact with the supposed occupants. For those who seek the truth,
many answeres to what puzzles us are there to be found.  I hope the new
owners of the Sentinel hold the same level of journalistic morality that we
appreciated so much from the past editor, Duane Cook.

Donald M. Ware
  Lt. Colonel, USAF(Ret)
  Ft. Walton Beach

-+----------------------------------------------------

 The Islander (Pensacola, FL) October 25, 1991

 UFO SIGHTINGS CONTINUE
  by Gary Watson

   October 5, for three and a half minutes an unidentified flying object
appeared over Gulf Breeze and on that night this brilliant red UFO, so often
seen by scores of witnesses at the south end of the Pensacola Bay Bridge,
suddenly displayed a bright ring of lights that outlined its pulsating
"power light."

   "Look, there it is!"  Sue Jones yelled for others to look in the direction
she pointed.  The crowd echoed her words.  "There it is!" "To the south, look
everybody!" Bruce Morrison scrambled to his video camera.  Greg Liss focused
his 500mm lens camera.  "Professor" Pugh, Ray Polluck and dozens of others
also began taking photgraphs.

   The red UFO has been witnessed, video recorded and photographed over
eighty times since January 1991.  The witnesses number in the hundreds.  Dr.
Radomski was one of the witnesses and he said, "I just can't explain what I
saw. It was red and then was surrounded by white lights for over three
minutes before simply vanishing."

   On this night, thirty local residents and a MUFON Research Team witnessed
and documented the UFO sighting.  The object suddenly appeared in the sky
over Gulf Breeze at 30 degrees elevation and 230 degrees compass bearing,
relative to the witnesses.  It remained in one spot before moving to the
west, into the wind.  MUFON investigator Morrison said, "The fact that the
object flew into the wind shows that it is a powered craft, not to mention
the distinct ring of lights that suddenly surrounded the blazing bottom red
light."

  ----------------------------------------------------

  The Islander (Pensacola, FL)  November 15, 1991

 UFO INVESTIGATORS PHOTOGRAPH UNIDENTIFIED OBJECT OVER BEACH
    by Gary Watson

  On November 5, an unidentified object was seen and photographed as it
hovered over Gulf Breeze.  A dozen witnesses and several MUFON (Mutual UFO
Network) investigators saw the UFO from the south end of the Bay Bridge.

   Photographs were taken by Patti Weatherford and Anne Morrison who used a
440mm lens and fast action 3200 ASA film to capture the image of the "crown"
shaped object.

   The object seen on this night is believed to be the same type UFO first
reported by Ed Walters and scores of other witnesses in 1987.  The
configuration of "portholes" and the very bright bottom "power" light
resembles the outline of the UFO that Ed Walters described in his best
selling book "The Gulf Breeze Sightings."

   The UFO sightings in Gulf Breeze have been occuring at a record pace since
the first of the ear, but recently the UFOs have displayed a variety of
effects.  Before the eyes of scores of people who gathered nightly at the Bay
Bridge, spectacular rings of lights have appeared from "out of thin air."
These rings of light are made up of separate points of light that hover
making no sound and then suddenly vanish in a clear sky.  Often the witnesses
can see the structural shape of the object as it travels across the sky and
blocks out the stars as it passes.  This was the case with the latest
sighting when one very skeptical witness looked through his binoculars and
said, "Hold on here, I can see something black around it."  Another witness,
Bland Pugh said, "I could see a definite curved structural shape above the
blazing red light at its bottom."

  (A photograph connected with the article shows an object that looks very
mujch like the "bottom" of an "Ed-craft" with lights above it making it look
"crown-like.")
-+---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks, take care.
John.

--- XRS! 4.50+
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19)

---END-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Happy Holidays to all!

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re^3: Firsthand account
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Dec 91 02:28:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Distribution: na
Organization: Wazmodyne Systems
Lines: 22
Originator: jcj@tellab3
Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3

[e-mail] (Dan Peterson) writes:

>... During a full moon, go outside with 4 coins: a penny, nickle, dime,
>and quarter. Estimate mentally which coin held at arms length most closely
>estimates the size the moon (NEXT FULL DEC 21). Then actually perform the
>experiment...

Take a regular aspirin tablet along and hold that up with the coins.

>... So feel free to land at my house, you can have coffee and a moon pie,
>and I'll tell everyone I believe again.

While they're hanging out, ask them why they use something as primitive as
needles for their sampling and implants when they have a metallurgy and
propulsion system beyond our understanding of physical laws.

>"what would i be thinking if i were a gelatinous creature living near a
>sulfur spewing volcanic vent under a gazillion pounds of water pressure???"

"What's beer?"
--
              [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Dec 91 11:06:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dr. Ard Anjomani) writes:
>One thing that few people know about..  Oswald had faild basic marksmanship
>in the United States Marine Corps, this info comes to me from a former Drill
>Instructer who had access to Oswald's records...
>
>One shot would have been lucky..  Three.........

Actually, a month or so ago, on "Nightline" (or some other evening
News program, I can't remember) there was a program on some of the
Soviet KGB files on Oswald (based on when Oswald had lived in the
Soviet Union) that have recently been released due to the changes in
the U.S.S.R. (Perhaps someone else who saw it can give a more exact
reference to the date, etc, of this program.) Anyway, the files
discussed on the program also indicated that Oswald was an extremely
poor shot. For example, there was one incident in which during some
training he and a bunch of others had to each shoot a turkey and bring
it back. Oswald was so bad he had to get someone else to shoot his
turkey for him. Based on these two examples showing Oswald's poor
marksmanship, I would say that it would have been very difficult for
Oswald to have hit Kennedy unless he fired a whole bunch of shots.

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|     Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     |     [e-mail]     |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!sjcupps
From: [e-mail] (S J Cupps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  *** TV ALERT ***
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Dec 91 03:47:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (S J Cupps)
Distribution: na
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles
Evans) writes:
>>
>>   Is it a rumor or not, where did, whoever posted about it get their
>>   information?????

  Ok.  Here's the story.  I was heading to school on the morning of the
16th.  I turned on AM 1040, the local news station and tuned into the
"Michaelson in the Morning" show.  The host was talking to someone from
Washington.  I believe he was an author, but didn't catch the person's name
because I tuned in late.

  They were talking about politicians and how it was hard to get information out
of them because information is power and they lose influence every time they
give out secret info. etc...  One of the examples this man used was the military
cover-up of UFO sightings.  The man said the UM program on the 25th was supposed
to reveal this cover-up.  He also hinted that the gov't was going to be making
an announcement relating to this.

 When I heard this I thought of this newsgroup and figured I should post it,
since one possible dead-end rumor is better than a thousand "THUD THUD. Why
didn't I watch that show?" regrets.  Sorry for any misinterpretations.

>
> It was posted here by S J. Cupps, [e-mail], on the 16th.  I
> e-mailed her asking for more information, and I haven't heard anything
> since.  To be fair, she might not have logged in since then.

  To Jim:

 I tried to write you with this same info, but my mailer rejected your address.
I've attempted another email today.

Sara
--
[e-mail]       ~Encourage random violets
                            and senseless acts of
 ...fade to black....       credulity.~

Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!inqmind!turtle
From: [e-mail] (Barry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Dec 91 16:36:59 GMT
References: <1991Dec24.170830.22877@anasaz>
Organization: The Inquiring Mind  1 204 488-1607
Lines: 57

billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bar
>
> ... stuff deleted ...
> ... stuff deleted ...
> ->
> ->
> I was 23 and followed the events as they happened.  Jim Garrison is a
> bozo. He had no evidence whatsoever other than his own speculation and
> that changed almost daily.  He used the prosecution to gain national
> recognition and, I suppose, to advance his own career.  The case ended
> when the jury laughed him out of the court room.
>
Jim Garrison only looked like a bozo because the government did everything
they could to mess up his investigation (e.g. killing witnesses and
convincing others not to talk, destroying and hiding evidence).  The jury
did not laugh at Garrison's theory that a conspiracy was involved in the
killing of Kennedy, they simply decided that the evidence implicating Shaw
was not sufficient for a guilty verdict.  In that respect I suppose Garrison
looked bad.

> What Stone and all the other conspiracy advocates ignore is Lee Harvey Oswald
> Lee Harvey Oswald was a loser.  There was no reason or advantage for any
> conspirator to include him in a plot to assasinate the President.  That
> hypothesis only arises out of hindsight at events that actually occured.
>
> No conspirator could have forseen that the trajectory of the fatal shots
> would be questioned.  No conspirator could have forseen that there would
> be no witnesses to the shooting (gunman) given the thousands of people presen
> and the extensive movie and TV coverage.  No conspirator could have
> forseen that all the police and secret service agents would fail to
> capture the gunman.  So what role would that conspirator have for Lee
> Harvey Oswald?
>
> If there was indeed a shooter on the "grassy knoll", the planners would have
> had to expect witnesses, established bullet trajectories and the capture
> or death of the shooter(s).  No way could they plan on these gunmen getting
> away leaving Lee Oswald to take the blame.  No way could they plan that
> nobody would scientifically establish the direction from which the shots
> came so the "fall guy" theory doesn't make sense.  Therefore, it wouldn't
> make any sense to include a loser in the plot.
>

Come on Bill, the conspiracy and coverup was very involved and wide
reaching.  It began well before that day in Dallas, and continues to the
present.  The activities of those involved (destroying and altering
evidence) made it impossible for anyone to easily reconstruct the events of
that day.  A fall guy was needed to satisfy the public and make them stop
asking questions.  Why else would Oswald be eliminated so quickly and
completely from the picture.  There could be no trial.  Well, it's about
time there was a trial!!

        --Barry

[e-mail]
The Inquiring Mind BBS, Winnipeg, Manitoba  204 488-1607
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Calvin Knows Better
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Dec 91 04:16:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone) writes:
>
>    If you think that the subject of UFOs and abductions hasn't
>    penetrated fairly deeply into the public consciousness, think
>    again: there was a Sunday "Calvin and Hobbes" strip that had
>    Calvin reciting a poem...

There were nasty little aliens running around "Bloom County" a few years
ago, too.  Not to mention a line about "Elvis's clone from a secret
underground lab in Nevada."

Then there's The Pixies's song, "The Happening", about Area 51.  It was
mentioned on Fidonet a couple of times this year.  And on this newsgroup,
there were a few messages about Van Halen's song "Love Comes Walking In"
which used abduction by aliens as a metaphor for being in love.  (No, I'm
not making this up!)

Finally, when Tracy Torme was "creative consultant" for "Star Trek: The
Next Generation" a few seasons ago, there was an episode in which some of
the crew were abducted, had genetic samples taken, and forgot all about it
until they noticed the missing time!

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!uokmax!occrsh!fang!att!cbnewsc!cbnews!ewm
From: [e-mail] (edward.w.mcfarland)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Dec 91 15:19:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 43

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dr. Ard Anjomani) writes:
>>One thing that few people know about..  Oswald had faild basic marksmanship
>>in the United States Marine Corps, this info comes to me from a former Drill
>>Instructer who had access to Oswald's records...
>>
>>One shot would have been lucky..  Three.........
>
>Actually, a month or so ago, on "Nightline" (or some other evening
>News program, I can't remember) there was a program on some of the
>Soviet KGB files on Oswald (based on when Oswald had lived in the
>Soviet Union) that have recently been released due to the changes in
>the U.S.S.R. (Perhaps someone else who saw it can give a more exact
>reference to the date, etc, of this program.) Anyway, the files
>discussed on the program also indicated that Oswald was an extremely
>poor shot.
>turkey for him. Based on these two examples showing Oswald's poor
>marksmanship, I would say that it would have been very difficult for
>Oswald to have hit Kennedy unless he fired a whole bunch of shots.
>
>-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
>|     Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     |     [e-mail]     |
>-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
>|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
>-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
>|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
>-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

One need be only mildly familiar with the use of a scope-sighted rifle like the
one The Warren Commission says Oswald used to know that accurately hitting the
mark under the stated conditions is humanly immpossible. Even the BEST marksman
would have difficulty getting ONE shot in during the time the motorcade was
visible from the book depository.
That fact alone proves to me the flaw(s) in the Warren commission version.
Alien involvement? Yeah- the Warren Commission...

     Ed McFarland                       We make history the old-fashioned
     [e-mail]                  way, we revise it!

*  Truth :  the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable of   *
*  destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed by   *
*  all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death.   *
                                          -unknown (to me)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!cbnewsd!hhm
From: [e-mail] (herschel.h.mayo)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Shroud: What a mistake!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Dec 91 21:51:13 GMT
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: Chicago Home for the Morally Challenged
Lines: 54
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:18869 talk.religion.newage:8379 alt.atheism:20053 alt.alien.visitors:3728

> >     But Mr. Johnsrud and others who believe the shroud to be a medieval forgery
> >  have yet to provide plausible explanations for the anomalies of the shroud.
> >  How would a medieval forger know to put the nail wounds in the wrist, when all
>
> Question:  If it aint Jesus, why does it HAVE to be a forgery?
> Why cant the shroud be a simple, (albeit large) case of mistaken identity.

I suspect that the shroud is not that of Jesus due to the considerable
amount of evidence, however , as one author put it: If the shroud is a
fake, it raises as many questions as if it were real. Presuming that
it was done in the 13th century, there are some curious problems with
the alleged fakery.

1. There are anatomical details included on the back side that the artist
    would not have included unless he had been able to view a corpse on a
    glass table.

2. The image was not painted. According to Nickell, it was rubbed on. If
   so, then how did the artist create an image that is an encoding of
   distance, and can be recreated as such without distortion by computer
   analysis. Flat photographs or rubbings don't do that.

3. Why would the artist be stupid enough to paint the blood stains in
   with red paint, when the logical choice would have been to use
   animal blood. The people of the 13th century were not stupid, and
   certainly knew what dried blood looked like.

4. If the shroud is a fake, then where is the evidence of other fakery
   using the same method? Relic faking was always repeated in some form
   or another, yet no other examples of fake shrouds can be found.

5. The record of the inquest claims that the artist had cunningly painted
   the shroud, but does not tell how.  Relics were big business, and if
   a Bishop wanted a confession from somebody to debunk a relic that was
   drawing business away from his church, he got one. The 13th century
   is not exactly characterized as period that showed great respect for
   personal civil rights.

6. The shroud debunkers alternately characterize the artist as cunning
   and incompetent depending on which point they are trying to prove.
   They can't have it both ways.

7. There are a couple of interesting alternatives. The shroud is possibly
   the work of an unknown genius of the caliber of Leonardo, a genius who
   invented a method of fakery never used before or since.  Or the very
   bizarre possibility that through a very unique chain of events the
   image of a dead 13th century flagellent became imprinted on his shroud
   through some crude form of xerography. This is not so far out when
   you consider that the image contains iron oxide traces, and the whole
   shroud was evidently washed in something containing strontium.

   There seem to be lots of questions.

                                                   Larry Mayo
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From: [e-mail] (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Shroud: What a mistake!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Dec 91 21:57:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Twilight Zone
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:18870 talk.religion.newage:8380 alt.atheism:20055 alt.alien.visitors:3729

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>The vatican has consistantly regarded the shroud as a relic
>but NOT as the authentic burial cloth of X.
                     ^^^
    Damn right, especially since I am not dead yet.
>
>- the alleged mysterious and "inexplicable" properties of the shroud
>are largely made up by pro-shroud believers.  In particular, members
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Jeez... some people aren't TOO much in need of a life...


    -X
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsb.cb.att.com!osan
From: [e-mail] (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Dec 91 22:08:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Twilight Zone
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>>
>>            ... I will be filing lawsuits soon, and they are NOT
>> going to succeed!
>>
>This seems very pessimistic. Why not get a better lawyer?
>
>Jan
    The line is ambiguous: it could also be read as "I will be filing
    lawsuits soon, and they [the evil ones] are NOT going to succeed!'.

    So the question is: which is the correct meaning?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!rutgers!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   *** TV ALERT ***
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Dec 91 05:07:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (S J Cupps) writes:
>
> When I heard this I thought of this newsgroup and figured I should post it,
>since one possible dead-end rumor is better than a thousand "THUD THUD. Why
>didn't I watch that show?" regrets.

I agree with you on that.  (In an astronomy program I use is a comment on
the Leonid meteor shower of 1966:  "The author of this program slept
through it, and has regretted it since.")

> I tried to write you with this same info, but my mailer rejected your address.
>I've attempted another email today.

For what it's worth, I got it.  Maybe there was a node down somewhere.

By the way, for anyone who remembers my promise to post some things
mentioned by Stanton Friedman on the radio two weeks ago, I haven't
forgotten.  Maybe it's all old news to some people, but some of it was new
to me so I'm going to wait until next week when more people might be back
on the net.  But while we're talking about rumors, he's twice heard that
the film of the Holloman landing is going to be released early next year.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!porthos.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Dec 91 11:12:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 102
Cc: mcgrew

This isn't the group for this, but a lot of wild statements have been
made, and I thought I'd try and settle everyone down (note Followup-To
field).

   The "story" of Oliver Stone's movie is just that; a story.  Its a
fanciful tale by Jim Garrison (who, among other things, insists to
this day that there is no Mafia in New Orleans - where he was DA and
certainly knew better.)  Garrison is not a hero, but a
publicity-seeker who has had the last laugh on all of us by being made
to look like, of all things, a sex symbol (anyone who has seen a
picture of Jim Garrison knows how funny this is).  As others have
said, the movie is *NOT* factually correct, even in the things it
appeared to portray correctly.

   If you choose to take Oliver Stone's movie as fact, well, that's
exactly what he is hoping.  He's in it for the money, regardless of
what he may say.

   Paul Lewis [[e-mail] (Paul M. Lewis, 'Perry')] runs an
excellent JFK mailing list (though it tends to get a little wild-eyed
now and again), which I recommend to those who are seriously
interested in this matter.  To give you an idea of it, here is an
excerpt of a message to that list from Paul himself concerning the
movie.  Send mail to him to be added.

            --- begin excerpt ---

Let's get to the heart of the matter.  This movie CLEARLY distorted
the Garrison investigation.  As I feared, Garrison was made out by
Stone to be the 'tragic ' hero, the only man with the answers, who
falls in the end as a result of 'people who don't care' and infil-
tration by intelligence agencies.  I wish I could have brought a
pad and paper to the movie to keep track of all the factual
misrepresentations.

This is what I can remember off-hand (I just got back from the movie,
and it's 2:30 am...)

1.  Ferrie and Shaw were made out to be flaming homosexual buffoons.
    Especially in Shaw's case, this was far from the truth in real
    life.  He was distinguished and highly respected.

2.  The conversation between Ferrie and Garrison and his men was
    practically invented.  Ferrie never said most of the things that
    Stone and Skylar planted in his mouth.  Implicating Johnson?
    This never happened.

3.  As far as I know of, Garrison NEVER met Fletcher Prouty (as
    portrayed in the movie by Donald Sutherland, who met Garrison
    in Wash. DC).  This was completely invented.

4.  Who the HELL was Kevin Bacon playing in this movie?  Willie
    O' Keefe?  Who the HELL is that?  Stone eliminates Perry Russo
    from the script entirely (save ONE mention by Garrison while
    interrogating Shaw), yet he INVENTS this O'Keefe character?

5.  When the O'Keefe character encounters Oswald, this is similar
    to the Russo story in which he met Ferrie's roommate 'Lee', who
    was most likely James Lewallen (known as 'Lee'), yet Stone
    makes a positive identification of the man as Lee Harvey Oswald.

6.  Garrison's showing of the Zapruder film in the courtroom was
    accompanied by a monologue which was 6 years before its time.
    This description is Groden's theory (he consulted Stone), and
    that wasn't devised for another 6 years in 1974 or 1975.  (Meaning
    Groden's timing of the shots and interpretation of the film).

7.  How could Stone ignore Dean Andrew's admission that the 'Clay
    Bertrand' story was incorrect?  Andrews claimed later that it
    was actually a Eugene Davis who contacted him about counsel for
    Oswald.

8.  The scene where David Ferrie has pills stuffed down his throat
    was complete garbage.  This is Garrison paranoia, not facts,
    or even honest speculation.


Stone took too much creative license in this movie.  He invented
dialogue to support his (Garrison's) case, and IGNORED vital facts
surrounding the Shaw case.  What about the ridiculous rantings and
ravings by Garrison to the press?  Garrison certainly looked a lot
more credible on screen than in real life.

The only thing I can credit Stone with is a good piece of filmmaking.
As a historian, he fails MISERABLY.



As Harold Weisberg stated, 'Those who sell sex have more principle.'


Paul Lewis

            ---- end excerpt ----

Curiously, in UFO-ology and in JFK-ology, the "best story" (as opposed
to the "best facts") are always remembered.  If you want to read a
good book on the JFK assasination, rule #1 is *don't* read one by
Mark Lane or Jim Garrison.  (Rule #2 is *don't* read the Warren
Commission. :-)

Charles
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbfsb!cbnewsb.cb.att.com!osan
From: [e-mail] (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Dec 91 21:05:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Twilight Zone
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dale Wedge) writes:
>
>
>Anyways, after much research on the subject, I think that it is safe to
>say that Oswald was the lone assassin.
>
>The JFK Film is only a film and not based on truth.

    I was trained as a sharpshooter (read sniper) and can say without
    reserve that I have never met another sharpshooter that could have
    pulled off the stunt that Oswald is credited with, and I have known
    some mean shots.  It would have been hard to do with a semi-automatic
    rifle, and virtually impossible with bolt action.  If you don't
    believe me, get a rifle, spend a couple of years training 5 days a
    week and then show me that you could do what Oswald is claimed to have
    done.  I wont hold my breath.

    To say that the film was not based on truth is pure rubbish.  Granted,
    whilw Oliver Stone shamelessly put forth what is probably his personal
    opinion in JFK, it does not necessarily mean that it is not true.  In
    fact JFK presented absolutely *nothing* new.  The idea that the
    military industrial complex (MIC) was one of the major forces behind
    the assassination has been easily figurable since I was a teenager.
    I happen to believe that this theory is well within the ballpark of
    what really happened.

    I have several friends that are ex-CIA and many of the stories they
    have related to me makes everything in JFK quite believeable and
    quite likely true or very close to it.  Anyone who believes the
    official line as presented by the Warren Commission has got to be a
    complete fool.  Not only was the conspiracy covered up, but those
    responsible did not even do a good job of it; a fact which I believe
    clearly indicates their low opinion of and indeed their utter contempt
    for the American public.

    -X
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stan!kj
From: [e-mail] (KJ Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Heliotropic/Zero Space Flapdoodle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jan 92 01:14:06 GMT
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc.
Lines: 15

>Come now...you can't be serious when you claim that two physically
>   separate points ("zero spaces") are in fact the SAME POINT (or
>    "zero space").
> Incidentally...You wouldn't be any relation to the fellow who
>    posted that mondo-bizarro "Reciprocal System" gibble-gabble
>    that postulates that the Universe is just 'motion' made up
>    of 'units', or some such rot, would you?


No, I'm not related to the Reciprocal System 'mondo-bizarro'.
And yes, zero space is exactly that, zero. And the distance from zero to zero is
exactly ZERO.  The three-space locations of the multiple occurances of
zero-space does have a distance separating them, they appear as different
and distinct points. However within zero-space no distance can exist,
therefore they must be the same point.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!mof.govt.nz!smithdr
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: re:Speaking of shapes in the sky?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Dec 91 18:53:32 GMT
Organization: New Zealand Ministry of Forestry
Lines: 24

Saw exactly what you describe in the fall of 1974 in Calgary, Alberta, in
Canada. The "stars" would appear soon after 11.30 pm., and behaved as you
describe. One night, a number of people counted 20 of them at one time.
They tended to move one after another in a wave from right to left, and
each usually moved perpendicular to the direction of the one before it.

This activity lasted at least a week. Air traffic controllers in the area
didn't want to discuss them.

Many sceptics at the University of Calgary campus, told of the activity,
independently later confirmed the observations, as they were so
predictable.

The general concensus was that they were probably some unannounced  U.S.A
"spy" satellite project being calibrated over an important oil-field region.

Interesting to hear that they around again. I will be interested to see
if they are as predictable as last time.

Dale Smith


          Internet: [e-mail]
                     Bitnet: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!ukma!nntp.msstate.edu!Isis.MsState.Edu!cee1
From: [e-mail] (Charles Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Loch Ness Monster
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jan 92 08:24:42 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University
Lines: 11

Just read in the Jan 14, 1992 Weekly World News, that the group of
scientists over in scotland have captured the Loch Ness Monster with a
steel net... Any truth to this, that anyone can verify?

Chuck

--
Charles-Edward 'Hip-Hoppin' Evans       The doctrine of purgatory is bologna
[e-mail]                     Therefore I will have a purgatory
                                        sandwich with mustard.
                                                       -- Deliverance
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Bennewitz Papers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Dec 91 18:12:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 27


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from Michael Corbin
 * Originally dated 12-29-91 15:35

From Christa Tilton:

"'THE BENNEWITZ PAPERS' are now available for $25.00 POSTPAID which updates,
examines new information about Dulce, NM and Christa Tilton's experiences there
with Officer Gabe Valdez, plus her correspondence with Rick Doty, former AFOSI
agent, plus Bill Moore's connection and plust two chapters from Paul
Bennewitz's own manuscript he was to have released and what caused the
government concern to keep him under wraps for so many years.  It is an
explosive manuscript."

Ordering information:  Make all payments payable to Linda Karr, P.O. Box
906237, Tulsa, OK  74112.  ($28 CANADA) ($35 OVERSEAS).

As an aside, I have read the publication and found it to be pretty interesting.

This is not an endorsement by ParaNet Information Service, and is provided as a
public service announcement.

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!Msu.oscs.montana.edu!icsic146
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ARIZONA UFO'S
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jan 92 09:25:08 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Master)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Montana State University
Lines: 54


     HAPPY NEW YEAR, 1992!
This is my first posting on this newsline.  Would anyone out there happen to
remember or heard of the sighting of the ENORMOUS UFO which appeared over the
night skies of Cochise and Graham and Greenlee Counties of South-Eastern
Arizona between 1978 - 1980?

From the memory which I have of eyeballing this MEGOLITHIC aerborne COLLOSUS,
it appeared as an island in the sky, albeit about the size and appearance of
Long Island all lite-up at Christmas as viewed from an aircraft 17 - 22,000ft
elevation.  It was witnessed by the total occupants of the cities of Safford,
Duncan, Clifton and Morencie.

Since then, and about 2 years after, the US Marines moved a whole Wing of
Combat Helicopters (Apaches and the British-made counterparts) from a small
base located outside of Buckeye, Arizona up to a mountain "top" base outside of
Morencie....then, within 18 months, a major bloodletting strike at the Phelps
Dodge mine located there resulted in much blood shed and the subsequent
emptying of that town which became a ghost town and no one was allowed in for
quite sometime....I left that area in Jan. 1985, and passed, tried to pass
through it again in the summer of 1987, and was turned away by armed roadblock
and instructed to use an alternate detour which took me far away from the area.

I communicated with an ol' 'Nam Vet with whom I served back in 1967-68, and he
told me that everything was really hush hush...that there had been several high
ranking "spooks" that he had worked with in 1964/5 arrive on the scene...There
had been several major dirt road changes...that is, they had come in and remade
the old dirt roads of our childhood and these roads went around and out of the
areas that they used to service...some, many miles longer for no apparent
reason.

One of these individuals was a "Dr." Rodney Sacharnowski, who it appears is a
private "security" consultant and has been around the country as well as around
the world...there was also extensive small-dished radar antenna devices located
at various levels and spacing throughout the mountains that were never there in
1985.

On checking credentials, Dr. Sacharnowski was supposedly connected with the
Bloomington, Indiana Sheriff's Department as their Training Instructor...When
called in 1986, they affirmed that he worked there, but was not the training
instructor...and that he was not available at that time....when called again in
1988, they disavowed any knowledge of him as ever having been there.

Well, I thank you one and all for letting me have this time and have only one
other tidbit...has anyone every figured out, that VP Johnson was a leading
Mason, and as such commanded much in that order which at that time, too a blood
and death oath which was held?  And, that L.H.Oswald was also a Mason, who
would have had such a blood oath as well as the countless THOUSANDS of other
high muckety-mucks in the AMERICAN (look at the symbols on the dollar bill)
Political system.  JFK was a Catholic, and at that time in history, Catholics
could have NOTHING to do with the Masonic Order....besides, both were known to
be adulterers, and whose to say that LBJ didn't want to have the Kennedy's
heavenly plaything, Marilyn M. all to himself?
................................Nahnoo, Nahnoo and Schazzzbah to ya'll!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jan 92 01:15:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 56

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (edward.w.mcfarland) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dr. Ard Anjomani) writes:
>>>One thing that few people know about..  Oswald had faild basic marksmanship
>>>in the United States Marine Corps, this info comes to me from a former Drill
>>>Instructer who had access to Oswald's records...
>>>
>>>One shot would have been lucky..  Three.........
>>
>>Actually, a month or so ago, on "Nightline" (or some other evening
>>News program, I can't remember) there was a program on some of the
>>Soviet KGB files on Oswald (based on when Oswald had lived in the
>>Soviet Union) that have recently been released due to the changes in
>>the U.S.S.R. (Perhaps someone else who saw it can give a more exact
>>reference to the date, etc, of this program.) Anyway, the files
>>discussed on the program also indicated that Oswald was an extremely
>>poor shot.
>>-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
>
>One need be only mildly familiar with the use of a scope-sighted rifle like the
>one The Warren Commission says Oswald used to know that accurately hitting the
>mark under the stated conditions is humanly immpossible. Even the BEST marksman
>would have difficulty getting ONE shot in during the time the motorcade was
>visible from the book depository.
>That fact alone proves to me the flaw(s) in the Warren commission version.
>Alien involvement? Yeah- the Warren Commission...

*sigh*

IT WAS THE GODDAMNED CIA AND THE FBI COLLUSION THAT CORRUPTED THE WARREN
COMMISSION. OSWALD COULD NOT HIT THE SIDE OF A BARN IF HE HAD TRIED TO.

OSWALD DID *NOT* SHOOT AT JFK (NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THAT HE EVEN FIRED A
SHOT). OF COMPLICITY, THE DALLAS POLICE, THE CIA TRAINED ANTI-CASTRO EXILES,
WERE THE SHOOTER(S) OF JFK. THERE'S TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF DIS-INFO THAT HAVE
BEEN CONTINUOSLY CIRCULATED FOR THE LAST 29 YEARS AND IT POINTS TO THE *CIA*.

THE CIA SHOULD BE BROKE INTO 1000 PIECES AND SCATTERED TO THE WIND FOREVER.

RICHARD NIXON IS GUILTY OF HIGH TREASON FOR HIS PART IN THE ASSASSINATION PLANS
OF MANY PEOPLE PRIOR TO JFK'S DEATH. THE CIA *IS* THE "MINISTRY OF TRUTH" OF
OUR VERY _REAL_ "1984".

(ahem)

Now that I have your attention...*please* move this discussion TO alt.conspiracywhere it _properly_ belongs. Thank you!


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jan 92 15:45:48 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 27

[e-mail] (from Montana) writes about
Ufo citing, etc.:

Your post was interesting until I got to the part about
VP Johnson was a Mason who commanded a blood and death oath.

What in the world are you talking about?  What is the blood
and death oath?

How much do you *really* know about the Masons.

When I was in college I held a part time job at a typewriter store..
some of the men who owned it were Masons.  I was raised Catholics
and they were against Masons...and I have figured out since that
the reason the Catholic religion is against Masonry is because
these people are evolving (Man, Know Thy Self).  The Catholics
Hierarchy is into power and control, and when people begin to
*realize* their own inherent divinity, that religion will lose
power over the people.

So your putting of the Masons in a bad light is questionable to
me.

I would appreciate you stating exactly what you are meaning...your
words and accusations need clarification, as far as I am concerned.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rutgers!rochester!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!gh1r+
From: [e-mail] (Gaurang Hirpara)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Loch Ness Monster
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jan 92 22:47:01 GMT
Organization: Junior, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 7


Verify? Did you see the picture?
It's news to me that you can get that kind of clarity
in that loch. The things 700+ feet of haze.
Fake. Fake. Fake.

--dan
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!apple![e-mail]
From: [e-mail] (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Loch Ness Monster
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Jan 92 03:52:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: MacDTS Mongols
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Charles Evans) writes:
>
> Just read in the Jan 14, 1992 Weekly World News, that the group of
> scientists over in scotland have captured the Loch Ness Monster with a
> steel net... Any truth to this, that anyone can verify?

Who would ever believe in anything in WWN? That magazine is maybe the
least credible magazine on this planet :-).

I remember the first page WWN news story about the WW2 airplane on the far
side of the moon - which *mysteriously vanished*. Incredible.

Kent
---
private comments
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Speaking of shapes in the sky?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Jan 92 16:51:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Lines: 12
Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Many sceptics at the University of Calgary campus, told of the activity,
>independently later confirmed the observations, as they were so
>predictable.

Ah, but what did the antiseptics do?

--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hp-cv!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!kevinc
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Loch Ness Monster
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Jan 92 19:42:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA
Lines: 31



     Ha !!  I seen this the other day while in the check-out line
in Safeway. Immediately I took notice of the scuba diver swimming
up around Nessies neck and head. I couldn't help but to wonder that
if this were really true, try to imagine what was going on in the
boat when they first caught it.

Scene 1 : (Camera zooms in on an old crusty fart standing at the helm)
Capt:  Arrrr, I believe we've finally netted the sea-bitch. BLIMEY,
       she's a BIG one, probably all but 100 feet long I'd say !!
       You there, standing there with your thumb up your anus !
       get your gear on and go take a look.  And you with the camera,
       you go with him.

Scene 2 : ( The camera zooms in on the two sailors, who after observing
            the biggest sea creature they've ever seen in their life
            thrashing the water like a possesed washing machine -
            look intuitively at each other and then turn to the capt.
            and rather convincingly say....)


Sailor 1: .........FUCK YOU CHOWDER HEAD !!
Sailor 2: .........FUCK YOU CHOWDER HEAD !!

____________________

     Lets get real.

Kc

Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!hp-cv!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!kevinc
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re:  ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 00:26:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA
Lines: 30


 Kathy writes....

Your post was interesting until I got to the part about
VP Johnson was a Mason who commanded a blood and death oath.

What in the world are you talking about?  What is the blood
and death oath?

How much do you *really* know about the Masons.

Blah blah woof woof............

Kathy
----------


     Before this gets on a tangent. Unless these masons took the
blood and death oath on a UFO, or received their mantra from an
alien, could we please stay with the original posters inquiry ?

     Back to the original poster.  I have'nt even heard of this
event. It almost sounds like Close Encounters Of The Third Kind.
Something that big and seen by that many people is truly astounding.
Surely there is someone out there who has more info.........This
means something.

Kc

* Elvis lives and is working as an Elvis impersonator in Lubock Tx.*
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!Msu.oscs.montana.edu!icsic146
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Arizona UFO's
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 07:11:20 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Master)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Montana State University
Lines: 19


    Sorry about that, I will stay with the newsgroup...got caught in the
previous JFK movie BULLSHIT and Geraldo Rivera's BULLSHIT on TV at the same
time I was reading and oh,well.....
    Yes KC I had the same feeling about the incident....that is why I
decided to post it....I haven't heard anymore about it since it WAS reported in
the local newspapers and the Arizona Daily Star at the time it happened...but,
NO OTHER news medium carried it (or was this a cover-up from Uncky Sam?) I have
kept my ears open...in touch with friends in the area all the time...even
called into the Unsolved Mysteries TV program with questions and as much
information as I have, but presently nothing further.....
    Therefore, I remain mildly bewildered..I would have thought that it
would have been widely known among UFO buff's...must have the wrong network
    Await further information.....does anyone know the whereabouts of a
scientist/inventor name of Dr. Carl Benz..worked on the Manhattan Project...it
was said, that he had a manufacturing plant in Mexico, and that in 1984/85, he
came back into the US to work on classified projects in So. Arizona, but due to
industrial sabotage, he moved his work to No. Arizona somewhere near the Utah
border?                                                       Shoz d'Jiji
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!dusty
From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: TOP GUN team looks for aliens OUT THERE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 05:25:15 GMT
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy,rec.arts.movies
Organization: Abode Computer Services
Lines: 76

I just heard that Hollywood's top two (Don Simpson and Jerry Bruckheimer)
producers- at least when it comes to clout, have quietly aquired the rights
to the Howard Blum non-fiction book, "OUT THERE."  Not only that, but that
they have been (just as quietly) under production with it for SUMMER '92
release.  No word on who stars in it, but you can bet that whoever it is
carries STAR STATUS.   These guys were recently courted by a number of
studios and have ended up at the top of the heap in Hollywood.  They are known
for their blockbuster action movies (TOP GUN, BEVERLY HILLS COP, & DAYS OF
THUNDER to menton a few) and even turned down Eddie Murphy's offer to produce
BEV HILLS COP III.   These guys have clout and guts.



                                  THE BOOK
A few months ago (while at B. Dalton's), I began to browse through a book
 that caught my attention.

    The cover read:  "In the winter of 1987, following a series of puzzling
                      events, seventeen members of the U.S. Intelligence
                      community were summoned to the Pentagon.  Their TOP-
                      SECRET mission: To determine if there was life...
                                    O U T   T H E R E "

As I began to curiously page through the book, I found an entire appendix
devoted to -yes- those unforgetable MJ-12 DOCUMENTS.

My first thought was: "What kook wrote this book?"

But to my surprise, it turned out that the author was Howard Blum the famed
New York Times reproter and two time Pulitzer Prize nominee.  This guy was
no kook.

This guy had the credibility and respect of many as a journalist.  Why would
he stick his neck out on something like UFO's?

I didn't have any money on me, so I didn't buy the book at the time, but I
was determined to go back and get it someday.  Well, I foud it at the local
library the other day and immidiately snatched it up.


The book, if true (as sworn by the author) is shocking!   Among some of the
revelations:   1) The Government has a covert group called the "UFO Working
                  Group" that even now, they don't admit to having.

               2) Project Blue Book's findings were different than those told
                  to the public and it did not end when they said it did.

               3) The "electronic fence" that surrounds America's defense
                  perimiter is frequently "tripped" by objects that cannot
                  be identified as any of the 7,087 man-made objects in space.

               4) The FBI's ongoing investigation of the MJ-12 documents and
                  the classified reports on the four alien bodies from  a
                  crashed disk found in the New Mexican desert in 1948.


From page one, I kept saying to myself "Wow!  this would make a great movie!"
and being a producer myself, I wondered if anyone had yet aquired the motion
picture rights to it.

Mr Blum has discovered that what many deride as science fiction is, indeed,
fact.  I only wish I had been the one to make this book into a movie, because
it is going to kick some major butt at the box-office.

First "JFK"...   Now this!

--Dusty
in L.A.








Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re:  ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 18:31:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Wazmodyne Systems
Lines: 14
Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus) writes:

>...  Back to the original poster.  I have'nt even heard of this
>event. It almost sounds like Close Encounters Of The Third Kind.
>Something that big and seen by that many people is truly astounding.
>Surely there is someone out there who has more info.........This
>means something.

That the original poster saw "CEIII", perhaps?  Let's see some additional
references...
--
              [e-mail]
            "What'd you like, Normie?"
         "A reason to live.  Gimme another beer."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re: ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 20:17:16 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 32

Kevin Cyrus suggests keeping to the original inquiry...

Kevin:  blah blah...woof woof yourself.

When I listen to UFO stories, accounts, I like to 'feel' a
sense of creditability in the story teller...the mention
of something as ridiculous as blood and death oaths by Masons
really shoots down the creditability of the Montana poster
(in my opinion..for me).

If such statements are made publicly on this net, I think the poster
should be willing to state what in the world he means by them.

There is so much disinformation and ignorance in the world today,
I would simply like to have a little bit of it cleared up for
myself.

Now is there any one out there who would like to speak up as to
what exactly this poster from Montana is speaking out...and since
he did relate it to JFK and Oswald, I am sure there are posters
out there who have their own theories/ideas as tow hat *may*
have happened.

One who seeks for truth AND accuracy..

Kathy

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information,
which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail
to keep a man in everlasting ignorance.  That principle is
condemnation without investigation."  --Herbert Spencer
(from the book:  "You Don't Have to Die" by Harry M. Hoxsey, N.D.)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ET to phone Home under new UN Guidelines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 16:01:56 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 46
Xref: ns-mx sci.astro:13790 sci.skeptic:18989 alt.alien.visitors:3750


Laugh if you will, but this is soon to be a reality:

---Begin included Text-----------------------------------------


Date: 12-29-91  21:00
From: Sandy Barbre

Found this in this Sunday's paper!

From The Daily Telegraph of London:

   If signs of life on other planets are ever detected, the news will not
reach the mass of mankind until a complicated process of verification and
approval is thoroughly exhausted.  Under a set of guidelines drawn up by the
world's scientists, the news must pass through a secret and Byzantine
notification process before being announced by the United Nations.  The
Declaration of Principles Concerning Activites Following the Detection of
Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence was thrashed out by the International Academy
of Astronautics in Buenos Aires.

   The first thing the radio-astronomer must do is to record the alien
signals, then contact other scientists worldwide to verify them.

   Then follows an approach to the International Astronomical Union, which
will send out an official notification through the Central Bureau for
Astronomical Telegrams.

   After that, the Secretary General of the United Nations, the Institute for
Space Law, and the International Telecommunications Union Will also be told.
The latter will ensure that the alien signal is cleared of all earthly radio
traffic so it comes over loud and clear.  Only then will the rest of the
human race be privy to the news that ET may, after all exist.

--End of article--

Don



--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: UFO Sightings in Gulfbreeze,FL - Sept 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 16:12:08 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 298
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3751 sci.skeptic:18990



This case continues to happen despite cries of hoax, flares and
declarations of "it was venus"..judge for yourself. If you're
ever down this way, bring your skeptical attitude and a camera
with lots of film. Also any IR equipment you may have.

From MUFON's files ---Begin Included text-------------------------


              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                GULF BREEZE, FLORIDA WITNESS STATEMENT
               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                   Visitor relates Gulf Breeze Sightings


I am here from Birmingham, Alabama visiting with my son and his
wife, and have gone with them to skywatch a few times. I have had
five sightings since September 1st, 1991.  The first two sightings
with my own eyes, I saw a bright light in the sky and that was not
an airplane, star, or helicopter.  The light seemed to be pulsing
from red to white and got very bright and then dim and then
brightened again for about 4 minutes, then would go out just as if
a light switch were turned off.

Thursday, September 5th we had a sighting of a bright thing in the
sky that everyone said they could see rows of lights, as if they
were portholes.  I did not have binoculars and could not see
anything but the bright light the same as the other nights.  The
next day, Friday the 6th of September I shopped for a pair of
binoculars.  We skywatched again that night and the most
spectacular thing appeared in the sky again and with my
inexpensive pair of binoculars I could see everything the others
saw.  The object floated slowly across the sky and seemed to have
rows of lights all the way around, as it floated slowly it turned
on its side and turned all the way over before it turned off its
lights.

Again, Sunday, September 8th we went sky watching and the same
object or one that looked the same as Friday night's sighting,
appeared again with the same rows of bright lights circled around
it.  This sighting lasted about 45 seconds before it turned off
it's lights.

=END=

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                     INVESTIGATIVE SIGHTING REPORT
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                  MUFON Investigator Describes Sightings
                                  by

                       Joe Barron, MUFON Investigator


A large UFO and a smaller one were witnessed by a group of UFO
watchers on Sunday night at 8:20 p.m., September 10, 1991 at the
south end of the Pensacola/Gulf Breeze bridge.  The sighting
lasted less than a minute and was described as a small red light
and a larger one that faded almost immediately after being
sighted.  The smaller red light stayed fixed in a permanent
position before fading out.  The UFO position was approximately 45
degrees on the horizon in a westerly direction over Old Navy Cove
in Gulf Breeze.  The watchers consisted mostly of Mutual UFO
Network (MUFON) investigators and others who wanted to see a UFO.
Photos were taken and will be analyzed for additional information.
The size of the small UFO was about the same as the light on the
water tower; the larger about 10 times bigger.  The distance from
the sighting area and the size of the UFOs is unknown at this
time.

This sighting followed a previous sighting which occurred on
Friday night, September 6, which, as one witness said filled the
entire viewfinder of his camera.  It was judged to be very big and
fairly close.  The energy field, a superstructure of some kind and
windows were observed.  As is the custom of MUFON investigators,
photos were taken and are being analyzed.  The sighting area was
also the south end of the bridge and the direction of the UFO was
over toward East Bay.  Your chances of seeing a UFO are very good
if you go to the area every night.

=END=

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Twenty witnesses see UFO "portholes"
               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Gulf Breeze Sentinel - Sept 12, 1991


Over the past year many local residents and visiting tourists have
reported seeing a strange re light hovering in the skies over
Gulf Breeze.  Truly enough, this red light puts on some
spectacular aerial displays, but it never really measured up to
the Sentinel's First UFO Rule, which is: Did you see the
"portholes"?

A great deal of time and equipment has been used in an effort to
identify this red light UFO but until a few days ago all that
could be said by the witnesses was "I saw a light." On Friday,
September 6, 1991, 20 people gathered at the south end of the
Pensacola Bay Bridge.  Most were hoping to see anything and the
red light was high on their list of possibilities.  (It has been
seen over 70 times since January 1991.) Witness, Vickie Lyons
said, "On this night what we saw was stunning.  It has changed my
life!"

This is a summary of what a few of the witnesses listed below had
to say:  In the sky over Gulf Breeze at approximately 60 degrees,
a UFO appeared, "portholes" blazing and traveling from south to
north.  It was so large and close enough that the ring of
"portholes" were distinct separate lights.  As it crossed the key,
the main body of the object blocked the stars.  At one point, two
minutes into the four minute sighting, the UFO slowed to a hover
and performed a 360 degree barrel roll.  It then proceeded to the
north, turned vertical and rapidly accelerated up and out of sight.

Two nights later, Sunday, September 8, 1991, another crowd of
residents gathered at the Bay Bridge and were treated to a
"porthole" lighted UFO.  Many photos were taken along with a
video.

=END=

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                     INVESTIGATIVE SIGHTING REPORT
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        UFO Investigator Reports
                        Second Daylight Sighting

                                  by

                      Joe Barron, MUFON investigator


     On Sunday, September 15 at 2 p.m., a very large UFO and a
smaller unit were seen in the area of Santa Rosa Shores and
Highway 98.  Both were metallic in color.  The larger appeared to
have appendages which circled the object and described by the
observer as "tree branches".  It also had what appeared to be
layers, or structures, placed on upon the other as plates.  The
smaller object was shaped like a bow-tie.  the larger was
estimated to be 45 feet wide and 60 feet long.  The smaller
appeared to be about 1/10th in size when compared with the larger.
Both objects rotated clockwise in a circular fashion, but
diametrically opposed in position.  The smaller rotated on the
opposite side of the circle.  Additionally, the moved vertically,
up and down, with the closest distance to the ground estimated at
500 feet.  Finally, the larger object shot off and disappeared.
The smaller went in an easterly direction, fairly slowly, until it
disappeared beyond the tree line over East Bay.  The observers
said that four occupants of a car took off toward the bay in an
effort to see where the "bow-tie" had gone.  It was estimated that
between 30 to 40 people witnessed the sighting.  If you are one of
the witnesses to this sighting, please call Joe Barron at 932-5394
so that the report can be enhanced.  The four occupants who chased
the UFO are particularly requested to contact Joe.  Of all the
witnesses who were there, it is hoped that pictures were taken.
If so, you are encouraged to contact Joe.  This is only the second
daylight sighting that this MUFON investigator has reported in
this area.  Therefore, the sighting is of particular significance.
All of the witnesses to this sighting are requested to attend the
Pensacola/Gulf Breeze MUFON meeting at 7 p.m. at the United Church
on 9th Avenue on October 14.

     Following the interview, this investigator joined a group of
people conducting a UFO watch at the end of the Pensacola/Gulf
Breeze bridge.  It was difficult to find a place to park.  The
crowd was substantial.  On the other side of the highway, a group
of MUFON investigators were assembled with their equipment, along
with Dr. Bruce Maccabee from Washington.  When this reporter
approached the group, a small red light appeared in the direction
of Garcon Point.  It was very bright, and made two appearances of
about 10 seconds before disappearing.  The time was 8:40 p.m. so
the odds are that if you want to see a UFO, look into the sky more
often and go to the end of the bridge after 7 p.m. You may see
one.

=END=

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          UFO SIGHTING REPORT
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                UFO Passes In Front of Full Moon as
                       Forty People Watch

                              by
                           Ed Walters

    The UFO "sky Watches" have continued nightly with many local
residents gathering at the foot of the Pensacola Bay Bridge.  On
Sunday, September 22, 1991, forty people were shocked to see the
UFO appear near the full moon.

    One man stated, "I saw a small white light appear to the left
of the moon.  It grew in size and moved west toward the moon.  As
it crossed the bottom edge of the moon, I could see the darkish
outline of structure above the white light which suddenly turned
brilliant red."

     A woman stated, "I saw a perfect circle of red lights.  In
the center of the lights was a glowing, boiling swirl of 'energy'.
When it crossed in front of the bottom part of the moon, I saw a
darker round shape above the red ring of lights."

     Another stated, "At first I thought it must be a parachute
and a flare but as it passed the moon, I saw that the shape above
the red light was angular and then I knew it was no parachute.  At
one point the red turned bright white before it suddenly
disappeared."

      An air traffic controller was among the witnesses and said,
"I don't know what it was but I know it was not a conventional
airplane or helicopter and it certainly was not a flare.  Flares
don't change color two or three times."

      A doctor at the bridge with his family said, "It moved quite
a distance across the sky before it disappeared.  We just don't
know what it was.  It was a UFO, An Unidentified Flying Object."

      A size triangularization, established with two other
sighting locations, located the object to be approximately 1.9
miles away from the witnesses at the Bay Bridge and also showed
that the object was over twenty feet in diameter.

      The object traveled to the west-northwest, into the wind and
closer to the witnesses.  MUFON investigators were present to
record the elevation and azimuth of this unknown object.  At the
time of the sighting the surface wind was out of the north at one
mile per hour and the upper level winds were also out of the
north.  There was no comment from the military.

=END=

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                Calendar of Sightings at Gulf Breeze
                 from January 1991 to September 1991

January sightings:

        1, 2, 6, 11, 13, 14, 16, 22nd

February sightings:

        3, 4, 9, 18, 21, 22, 23, 26

March sightings:

        5, 7, 8, 12, 20

April Sightings:

        2, 4, 6, 9, 17, 19, 23

May Sightings:

        1, 8, 10, 14, 16, 17, 18, 20, 24, 26, 29

June sightings:

        2, 8, 9, 12, 14, 18, 20, 23, 24, 30

July sightings:

        1, 5, 10, 11, 12, 13, 22, 26, 28, 29, 31

August sightings:

        1, 2, 3, 7, 9, 15

September sightings:

        1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 11, 14, 16

=END=

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: Puerto Rican Sightings - August - November,1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 16:18:03 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 510
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3752 sci.skeptic:18991


Found this on MUFONET BBS as separate reports which I have
cat'ed together on the UFO sightings in Puerto Rico. A good
deal of activity has been going on there for some months now.

----Begin included text-------------------------------------------



Message #931 "MUFONET: Member's Private Echo"
Date: 29-Dec-91  2:53
From: JOHN KOMAR
To:   All
Subj: Puerto Rico Newspaper Articles

The next few messages are from Puerto Rico, uploaded by MUFON Member Jorge
Rey.

Regards, John

---
 * Origin: MUTUAL-UFO NETWORK - MUFONET-BBS NETWORK 901-785-4943 (1:123/26)


Message #932 "MUFONET: Member's Private Echo"
Date: 29-Dec-91  2:54
From: JOHN KOMAR
To:   All
Subj: Puerto Rico 1

The following article was published by the newspaper EL VOCERO of
Puerto Rico  and  is  related to UFO activities.  Although I have
translated it from Spanish to English, I want to  make  it  clear
that  I  am  NOT a professional translator and that English is my
second language.

*UFO Fever in Spain. [Agencia EFE, Madrid.]*


UFO  sightings  reported  by  many Spanish airlines pilots, which
were hidden from the public before,  are  being  published  by  a
magazine and  are attracting public opinion's attention.  "We saw
something that still frightens us, a  sort  of  metallic  balloon
with a  visible  black  sign.    It was formed by two semicircles
crossed by a central line," said Iberia  Airline's  pilot  Carlos
Garcia  Rodrigo.  The  54-year-old pilot added that they had this
experience during a flight from Barcelona  to  Madrid  at  30,000
feet of  altitude.    This is just one of the many testimonies of
UFO sightings given by Spanish  pilots  to  Tiempo  Magazine  and
published in its last edition.

"We  Spanish  pilots know that our armed forces files are full of
reports  about  this  type  of  phenomena  but  since  they   are
classified,  they  become  secret,"  affirms Rodrigo. [...] Also,
Jose Luis Rodriguez Bustamante, a commander of Aviaco  [Airlines]
with  21,000  hours in flight, tells Tiempo what happened a night
during the 1970s in  a  flight  from  Tenerife  to  Gran  Canaria
[Canary  Islands.]  "A  luminous object showed up suddenly moving
towards [our] plane as it was  going  to  collide  with  it.    I
thought we  were  going  to  crash  and I became paralyzed.  That
[object] was flying with us for three  very  long  minutes.    It
vanished very  quickly.  It turned back to the northeast, towards
the same position from where it came  originally.    The  traffic
control  tower at the airport also told us that it saw the object
so we made the report.  However, by order of the  authorities  we
were forbidden to make this event public," said Mr. Bustamante.

Commander  Ignacio Lorenzo, a 57 year old pilot with 28,000 hours
in flight, admits to have felt scared during a flight from London
to Alicante. "It was like a huge balloon shaped light, with other
balloons at its sides.  It seemed to be alive for it had a deadly
purple and grayish color.  It also had  a  resemblance  of  veins
through  which there was a liquid passing, as it was a human eye.
We had it in our radar when it went behind a hill.    We  finally
overcame our  fear.    I  picked up the microphone and started to
speak to it in Spanish and English using the  emergency  channel.
Of course,  we  did not receive any answer.  So we started trying
to communicate using the lights.  We froze to death when  we  saw
that  thing  turning on and off its lights establishing this type
of communication with us.  We spent ten minutes doing it.    When
we  asked  them  if  they were enemies and if they were from this
planet,  they  answered  negative  to  both   questions,"   added
Lorenzo.

-*END*-

Published by EL VOCERO, Puerto Rico, on Tuesday, 12/17/91.
NOTE: This article was distributed by "Agencia EFE." It is a serious
      international news agency of Spain.

---
 * Origin: MUTUAL-UFO NETWORK - MUFONET-BBS NETWORK 901-785-4943 (1:123/26)


Message #933 "MUFONET: Member's Private Echo"
Date: 29-Dec-91  2:54
From: JOHN KOMAR
To:   All
Subj: Puerto Rico 2


The following article was published by the newspaper EL VOCERO of
Puerto Rico  and  is  related to UFO activities.  Although I have
translated it from Spanish to English, I want to  make  it  clear
that  I  am  NOT a professional translator and that English is my
second language.


"Unlike  people's belief that UFO phenomena are happening only in
a few places of the island [Puerto Rico,] EL VOCERO learned  this
week  [11/04/91]  about  the  strange  case  of  a  peasant  from
Colombia, Mr. Luis Roberto  Rodriguez,  who  says  to  have  been
abducted  by ET's this past April and brought to an alien city on
the Moon.    This  writer  got  permission  from  the   newspaper
"Vanguardia Liberal" of Bucaramanga, Colombia, to transcribe some
details  of  the  interview  that  Mr.  Rodriguez  had with their
reporter.  The peasant, who lives in a small town named Tunja, is
37 years old and father of several children.  He said that he was
brought back to earth 40 hours after his abduction.  He was  also
given  messages  for President Bush and the Cardinal of Colombia,
Mario Revollo.

All started on an April morning when Rodriguez went  out  of  his
humble home  to  milk  his  cow.    He said that while riding his
horse, a huge ship, as big as a stadium, sent  a  beam  of  light
onto him.  The horse got scared.  He dismounted the animal to get
protected from the light and he then lost consciousness.  When he
awoke he  realized  he  was in a strange place.  He added that he
spoke with two beings who  made  him  undress  and  examined  him
carefully.  He also said that although he saw a very big ship, he
was taken to the Moon on a smaller one, which made him believe he
was transferred from one ship to another during the trip."

Published on 11/04/91

-*END*-


---
 * Origin: MUTUAL-UFO NETWORK - MUFONET-BBS NETWORK 901-785-4943 (1:123/26)

Message #934 "MUFONET: Member's Private Echo"
Date: 29-Dec-91  2:55
From: JOHN KOMAR
To:   All
Subj: Puerto Rico 3


The following article was published by the newspaper EL VOCERO of
Puerto Rico  and  is  related to UFO activities.  Although I have
translated it from Spanish to English, I want to  make  it  clear
that  I  am  NOT a professional translator and that English is my
second language.


"Mayaguez  [Puerto  Rico.] Due to the interest that the case of a
Colombian peasant has brought [...] UFO researchers from all over
the world went to the town of Tunja, Colombia, to interview him.

Mr. Rodriguez, a humble man, claims that he was taken to the Moon
for 40 hours in April 1990 and was returned to Earth  on  another
place located  many  miles  from  his  town  of  residence.   Mr.
Rodriguez was found wandering around  the  town  of  Pitalito  in
Huila section.    He brought a message for President Bush that he
claims was given to him by ET's, and another  one  for  Colombian
Cardinal  Mario  Revollo Bravo. The message for Bush says: "Space
Confederation 1.24 a-25  Space  Brothers.  Mr.  President  George
Bush:  Facing  the  fury  of men against men, we are sending this
message from Space to make you aware of the evil and  destruction
you are  putting yourselves into.  Your power on Earth is big but
it is not  so  in  the  confines  of  Space.  This  is  why  your
scientific advances will be stopped as well as your nuclear arms;
otherwise,  men  will  experience their rapid fall into their own
abyss.  If they don't agree to stop  their  tendency  to  destroy
themselves,  they will see hate, treason, lies grow and they will
see the seven plagues develop more quickly.   Earth  itself  will
punish men.  The weak lines of earth will begin vomiting the fury
that man  himself  has  caused.  Your fights will bring disasters
because men's arms are pointing men themselves.  [...] There will
be powerful nations eating the crumbs of those less powerful  and
weaker.   There  will  be panic and horror for what is coming but
there also will be happiness among those who have suffered.    In
many  countries  bloody  wars  are  coming but they will start in
countries that have more destructive powers.  However, the  human
race  will  receive  a  preparation  for  its evolution [...] Mr.
President George Bush it is imperative to stop the development of
arms in all levels; otherwise Earth will increase  its  imbalance
and  humans  will  be  seeing  a speed in what they call days and
nights.  But if humankind would  awake  from  this  hecatomb  and
would  listen to this S O S, Earth would be the paradise that God
gave us since the beginning.  You will see a sign of our presence
in each place of the Earth providing help to those we  gave  this
mission.  We  will  get  more  closer to offer our help.  Creator
24-25 z peace, happiness, divine integrity, Space Brothers."

On the other hand, Mr. Rodriguez who is  a  peasant  with  scarce
academic  knowledge, also brought another message to be delivered
to the Cardinal Revollo. The so claimed abducted will  insist  in
delivering both messages in hand to Bush and Revollo."

Published on 11/09/91.

-*END*-


NOTE: Some paragraphs were quite difficult to translate and did
      not make sense to me, so I took them out and used [...] to
      separate them.

---
 * Origin: MUTUAL-UFO NETWORK - MUFONET-BBS NETWORK 901-785-4943 (1:123/26)


Message #935 "MUFONET: Member's Private Echo"
Date: 29-Dec-91  2:56
From: JOHN KOMAR
To:   All
Subj: Puerto Rico 4


The following article was published by the newspaper EL VOCERO of
Puerto Rico  and  is  related to UFO activities.  Although I have
translated it from Spanish to English, I want to  make  it  clear
that  I  am  NOT a professional translator and that English is my
second language.


"Ponce  [Puerto  Rico.]  residents  of  El Tuque and Las Cucharas
areas communicated with this writer to report a sighting of a UFO
seen to go in and out of  the  ocean,  one  mile  away  from  the
shore.   A local businessman, Mr. Amador Piazza, said that he saw
a circular object doing it from 11:30 pm to 1:00 am  on  Tuesday.
"It  was  fascinating to see this light getting in and out of the
water," said Piazza. He added that the  same  was  seen  by  many
other  people,  including  Luis Morales, Hector Noriega and Peter
Roman [local residents.] He also said that prior to this sighting
a huge triangular flying object was seen landing on a nearby hill
close to route #2 in Las Cucharas area.

Local residents made it clear that they are not seeking publicity
but rather the attention from  the  authorities.    "We  are  not
saying  that we are seeing UFO's but that there is something very
strange happening in our  area,"  Neighbors  of  El  Tuque  said.
These  residents'  version  match  other sightings of a UFO which
were reported in Mayaguez and San German during the weekend.    A
circular  object  similar  to a wedding cake was seen moving from
Monte Del Estado to  Rosario  village  past  Tuesday.    However,
authorities  keep  saying that such objects do not exist and they
are a byproduct of peoples' fantasies."

Published on 11/12/91.

-*END*-


---
 * Origin: MUTUAL-UFO NETWORK - MUFONET-BBS NETWORK 901-785-4943 (1:123/26)

Message #936 "MUFONET: Member's Private Echo"
Date: 29-Dec-91  2:56
From: JOHN KOMAR
To:   All
Subj: Puerto Rico 5


The following article was published by the newspaper EL VOCERO of
Puerto Rico  and  is  related to UFO activities.  Although I have
translated it from Spanish to English, I want to  make  it  clear
that  I  am  NOT a professional translator and that English is my
second language.


"Adjuntas. A huge triangular UFO was seen hovering over Los Pinos
area  and  5  more  showed  up on Vegas Arriba, Juan Gonzalez and
Guayabo areas during the past weekend  [10/12-10/13/91.]  A  well
known  local  radio  anchorman,  Edwin  Plaza, explained that the
sightings have gone on and that the whole  situation  deserves  a
very serious  investigation.    "We are not talking of one person
but thousands of people affirming  to  have  seen  these  strange
lights  in  our  town's sky," said Plaza. He added that sightings
happen almost every day and that huge lights move from Lake Guayo
to the Las Minas sector of Adjuntas. Also, a  circular  UFO  with
glowing lights of different colors was seen flying over Las Minas
area  and 5 others were seen this past Sunday [10/13/91] at 11:30
pm.  "It looked like a machine  moving  forward  and  backwards,"
added Mr. Plaza.

He  said that the UFO stayed moving from and to Lake Guayo for 22
minutes.  He also reported the case of three young men, residents
of Adjuntas, who had contact with a strange being who  came  down
from a  triangular  ship.  They described the visitor as short in
height, with long  arms  and  wearing  something  similar  to  an
overall.  This  being communicated telepathically with them.  The
anchorman said that the alien  told  one  of  the  men  important
information  about the possibility of a catastrophe in the island
[Puerto Rico.] Plaza added that "there  are  many  witnesses  but
people  are  afraid to identify themselves because they fear they
will be made fun of."  On Wednesday [10/16/91]  it  was  reported
that  F-14  planes  continue  to be seen flying after the strange
ships.  Mr. Plaza explained  that  "the  area  of  more  activity
encompasses  Las  Minas,  Vegas Arriba, Guayabo Dulce, Lago Guayo
and Juan Gonzalez sectors, although some lights can also be  seen
from Adjuntas's downtown."

Published on 10/17/91.

-*END*-



---
 * Origin: MUTUAL-UFO NETWORK - MUFONET-BBS NETWORK 901-785-4943 (1:123/26)

Message #937 "MUFONET: Member's Private Echo"
Date: 29-Dec-91  2:57
From: JOHN KOMAR
To:   All
Subj: Puerto Rico 6


The following article was published by the newspaper EL VOCERO of
Puerto Rico  and  is  related to UFO activities.  Although I have
translated it from Spanish to English, I want to  make  it  clear
that  I  am  NOT a professional translator and that English is my
second language.


"Adjuntas  [Puerto  Rico.]  Adding  himself to the group of local
residents who claim to have had UFO sightings, Lieutenant Carmelo
Robles Chamorro told of  his  experience  in  an  interview  with
anchorman Edwin Plaza of "Radio Gigante," on Thursday [11/14/91.]
Robles,  an  officer in charge of the local police district, said
that he has videotaped the strange lights in the  skies  that  he
saw  in  the  Las  Minas sector during the night of November 5th.

Robles went there responding to a call  of  a  neighbor  claiming
there  were  unusual  lights  hovering  in the Las Minas' sector.
Moved by  both  his  own  curiosity  and  the  multiple  versions
indicating  the  presence  of UFO's there, he picked up his video
camera [and fled there.] He said that he saw  a  brilliant  light
that  began  moving  in  the  sky  and  that shortly after, other
smaller lights that resembled folding screens, joined  it.    Lt.
Robles explained that what he observed was different from planes,
helicopters or other flying objects known by men.

"Immediately  after,  small  lights  looking like folding screens
began to show up and to move  towards  different  directions  and
then  they  started  to  slowly  roll  in circles," explained the
officer.  He added that  there  were  4  small  objects  [folding
screen shaped]  and  2 bigger lights.  "One light seemed to point
to the place where we were and became more intense, when I zoomed
my camera  towards  it,  the  light  backed  up."    The   police
lieutenant also admitted that, in addition, he recently saw a UFO
flying  in  the  sky  at  night, near the place where he lives in
Adjuntas."

Published on 11/18/91.

-*END*-

---
 * Origin: MUTUAL-UFO NETWORK - MUFONET-BBS NETWORK 901-785-4943 (1:123/26)

Message #938 "MUFONET: Member's Private Echo"
Date: 29-Dec-91  2:57
From: JOHN KOMAR
To:   All
Subj: Puerto Rico 7

The following article was published by the newspaper EL VOCERO of
Puerto Rico  and  is  related to UFO activities.  Although I have
translated it from Spanish to English, I want to  make  it  clear
that  I  am  NOT a professional translator and that English is my
second language.


"Ponce  [Puerto Rico.] While the authorities continue denying the
existence of UFO phenomenon and its implications  in  the  island
[Puerto  Rico,]  reputable  residents  confirm that they have had
sightings of strange objects in the south and west of  the  town.
The  most  recent  case was confirmed on Monday [11/18/91] by Mr.
Santos Amaro, who is the warden of the new jail of  Las  Cucharas
sector.   The  officer confirmed the version of Mr. Amador Piazza
and other neighbors who claim to have seen unusual lights  coming
out of the sea, one mile away from the Ponce shore.

 Mr.  Amaro  explained  that  when  it  gets out of the water the
object is opaque but it becomes incandescent as it goes  up  into
the sky.    "There  is  a  moment  that  it is hard to look at it
because of the intensity of the light," said Amaro.  The  warden,
who lives within the correctional institution's building, made it
clear that he is not seeking publicity but added that the strange
lights have no resemblance to any flying ship made by men.  "They
travel at an incredible speed and altitude," he concluded.

Published on 11/21/91.

-*END*-

---
 * Origin: MUTUAL-UFO NETWORK - MUFONET-BBS NETWORK 901-785-4943 (1:123/26)


Message #939 "MUFONET: Member's Private Echo"
Date: 29-Dec-91  2:58
From: JOHN KOMAR
To:   All
Subj: Puerto Rico 8

The  following article was published by the magazine "MAS ALLA DE
LA CIENCIA" of Buenos Aires, Argentina  and  is  related  to  UFO
activities.   Although  I  have  translated  it  from  Spanish to
English, I want to make it clear that I  am  NOT  a  professional
translator and  that English is my second language.  In addition,
I have no way to know if this is a hoax or not.


"In  the  shore of the Parana river, at 300 kilometers north from
Buenos Aires city [Argentina,] the people of a small  town  named
Victoria, enjoy  their  night  party.    Luminous spheres glowing
intense and changing green, red and  white  colors  can  be  seen
usually from  the town's beautiful shore.  In the La Matanza hill
and in the country area, people can see brilliant lights, strange
marks on the ground and some witnesses affirm that the lights are
extraterrestrial ships from where aliens have come down.    [...]
It  is said that the first apparition of luminous phenomena there
was observed in the Basaldua county, in an area called Laguna Del
Pescado [fish pond,] by mid-June 1991.

Nights have never been totally dark there.  Fishermen and illegal
hunters use lanterns and carry lights with  them  all  the  time.
Also,  Victoria's  sky  is  on  the  route  of  a  few commercial
airlines.  "We know how to discern familiar from strange lights,"
said Mrs. Maria Basaldua [a local resident.] She  goes  near  the
pond with her friends to watch those lights every night.

On  August  18,  1991 in spite of the intense cold of that winter
evening, Mr. Francisco Steven and his wife decided to dine out in
a restaurant named "La Tablita," located on  the  river's  shore.
Mr.  Steven  was riding his car and when he reached a corner just
beside the river, the car  suddenly  became  lighted  by  a  very
bright white  light.    When  he overcame his concern and fear he
speeded up  towards  the  restaurant  and  noticed  that  he  was
followed  by a reddish and spherical light which shape became, at
moments, diffuse.  When he parked the car in the restaurant's lot
he got out of it quickly and cried out at the place's owner,  Mr.
Raul Zalazar, using his nickname "Grete." When the owner came out
from  the restaurant together with three employees, the light had
vanished.  However, Steven did not have time to  tell  them  what
had happened to him because at that moment it showed up, from the
back  of  the  building,  a  huge  sphere  glowing an intense red
light.  The object also had, rolling above it, several  rings  of
light  as  if  they  were  a  halo  which  followed  it  until it
disappeared on the river, about 15 minutes afterwards.

The Children and the Mark

Around the same time, children of the "Escuela Hogar General  San
Martin"  [a  foster home,] located in the country area close to a
route, had an anxious night.  Together with two adult caretakers,
they saw the landing of a luminous object about 200  meters  from
the home's  dining-  room.   They went out and got as close as 40
meters from it.  There the children saw  three  humanoid  figures
coming out  of the object which was already on the ground.  These
beings moved floating barely a few  centimeters  from  the  soil.
Although  they  were  pretty  close to the object, they could not
observe more details because they were  blinded  by  the  intense
brightness that  the  object  sent  forth.  They all thought that
they all were seeing "a  ghost,"  perhaps  because  of  both  the
effect of  the  light  and  the anxiety they felt.  A few minutes
afterwards, a noise coming from a truck going on the route,  made
the object  and  the  three  beings  disappear.    The  following
morning, when they returned to the  place  to  inspect  it,  they
found nothing  unusual.  This gave grounds to think that it was a
case of collective hallucination.  However, a week later, a  mark
was found on the ground 200 meters away from the place where they
saw the   object.    The  mark  had  the  form  of  an  elongated
horseshoe.  It was 25 meters long and 15 meters wide.  It was  as
if a big iron was pressed onto the grass, tanning but not burning
it.   In  addition,  there  were  marks of props or legs in three
sectors of the ground.


Aurelio Brassesco and his son in-law, Roberto Perez,  spent  many
nights  searching  for  the luminous phenomena of Victoria. Their
endurance was compensated on August 3rd. Mr. Brassesco first  saw
at  sight  and  after  with a telescope, a mushroom shaped object
which  externally  seemed  to  have  the  texture   of   metallic
corrugated paper.   He  found  hard  to  estimate  its  size.  He
estimated that the object's diameter was from 4 to 7 meters."


Published by "Mas Alla de la Ciencia," of Buenos Aires, Argentina
on its edition of November 1991.

-*END*-

---
 * Origin: MUTUAL-UFO NETWORK - MUFONET-BBS NETWORK 901-785-4943 (1:123/26)

--EOF--

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: Iowa Crop Circles Investigation Report
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 16:22:03 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 706
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3753 sci.skeptic:18992


Grabbed this off MUFONET tonight...

---Begin Included text---------------------------------------------


*Iowa Crop Circles 1991*

Investigation Report
--------------------


INCIDENT DATE:  Wed/Thu, August 21/22, 1991
INCIDENT TIME:  9:30 pm to 3:00 am Central Time
INCIDENT LOCATION
    Blue Grass, Iowa (90 deg 45 min W, 41 deg 30 min N)
WEATHER AND ASTRONOMICAL CONDITIONS
    Clear skies, no precip, temp in low 70s, wind < 10 mph [1]
    Sunset 7:57 pm Wednesday, sunrise 6:21 am Thursday
    Moonrise 5:58 pm Wednesday, moonset 3:34 am Thursday
    Saturn 8.5 degrees from moon.  No other planets visible.
    Lunar illumination 91%.
WITNESSES
    Delmar 'Snowball' Meyer, farmer, Blue Grass, Iowa.
    J.H., farmer, Blue Grass, Iowa.
    M.A., housewife, Blue Grass, Iowa.
    S.S., shift worker, Blue Grass, Iowa.

PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATORS
    James Roger Black, Iowa City, Iowa (author of this report)
    Robert W. Atwood, Iowa City, Iowa (photographer and associate)

SUMMARY
-------

A 46.5-foot circle appeared in a corn field east of Blue Grass,
Iowa, on the night of Wednesday/Thursday, August 21-22, 1991.  One
witness saw an unidentified light moving over nearby fields around
9:30 pm.  A second witness on a road adjacent to the field
reported seeing a classic saucer descending toward the field as if
preparing to land between 12:30 and 1:00 am.  A third witness
heard an unusual 'rumbling, bumping sound' between 2:00 and 3:00
am.  A second circle appeared in a different field on the night of
Saturday/Sunday, August 24-25, 1991, but it appears to be a hoax
perpetrated in response to the first circle.

BACKGROUND
----------

Blue Grass, Iowa, is a farming community of approximately 1400
people near the Iowa/Illinois border.  It sits astride U.S.
Highway 61 between Davenport (4 miles east of Blue Grass in the
'Quad Cities' area) and Muscatine (20 miles southwest of Blue
Grass); Interstate 80 lies about 7 miles to the north and the
Mississippi River about 4 miles to the south.  Despite its
proximity to a major metropolitan area, Blue Grass still has the
feel of an isolated rural community, and the surrounding corn and
soybean fields can be quite dark and forbidding in the dead of
night.

As in most small towns, everyone knows everybody and their
business, which leads leads to some interesting relationships
among the witnesses in this case.  For example, M.A.'s husband
regularly plays cards with Snowball Meyer; and C.S., who helps
care for M.A.'s husband because of his chronic medical problems,
is the brother of S.S.  In a larger community such inter-
relationships would immediately raise questions of collusion; in a
town like Blue Grass, it is merely an inevitable part of the local
culture.

The Blue Grass area, like much of eastern Iowa, has been a hotbed
of UFO activity for years.  One sightseer we encountered during
our investigation told us that she had been 'chased home' in her
car by a brightly lit UFO in 1956, and we were told that another
Blue Grass resident's vacation campsite in southern Iowa had been
buzzed by bright lights earlier in the year.  Last year a similar
crop circle in a corn field near Milan, Illinois, just across the
Mississippi River, was examined by MUFON investigators [2], and
several UFO-related incidents were reported in the press.  Two of
the witnesses in the present case reported frequent nocturnal
lights and close encounters during the past two years, culminating
in the events which are narrated in this report.

EVENT #1:  SNOWBALL MEYER'S CROP CIRCLE
---------------------------------------

On Friday, August 23, 1991, investigator Robert W. Atwood
of Iowa City, Iowa, learned from a co-worker that a crop circle
had appeared in a field owned by the co-worker's father-in-law,
Delmar 'Snowball' Meyer of Blue Grass, Iowa.  Mr. Atwood
immediately contacted me by telephone and together we drove to
Blue Grass, arriving at Mr. Meyer's farm at about 5:30 pm.
Snowball has been a farmer ever since he left the Marines in 1954;
he has been at his present location for 20 years.  He is 57 years
old, with three children, and remarried after the death of his
first wife.  He has no religious affiliation and no hobbies--'just
this crazy farming' and a few rounds of golf 'when I've got the
time'.  He is respected by his neighbors and described as 'not one
to draw attention to himself.'

The farm is located approximately 1.25 miles east of Blue Grass
amid gently rolling hills, on the southeast corner of the
intersection of Highway 61 and Coon Hunter Road.  It appears tidy
and prosperous, with five major buildings and some metal storage
silos in addition to a large farmhouse.  There is also an older
concrete silo standing by itself at the southeast corner of the
homestead.

We were directed to the circle by Mr. Meyer's son and grandson;
Snowball himself was already at the circle with some friends when
we arrived.  The circle was situated in a corn field about 150
yards south of the homestead, on a slight incline which slopes
downward toward the northwest.  The field is completely surrounded
by an electric fence except for a large metal gate on the north
side.  Mr. Meyer's family assured us that the fence was
electrified Wednesday night, and that due to its design (using
line current instead of a battery) it would deliver a particularly
nasty jolt to anyone who came in contact with it.

Local television station KWQC had already visited the farm and
carried a 'humorous' story about the circle on their noon news
report, prompting a number of neighbors to visit the site before
we got there; but Snowball had been careful to minimize damage to
the circle and the surrounding fields.  The corn was well over our
heads and closely planted (about 3.5 feet between rows and only 6
inches between individual plants within the rows), and we had to
walk carefully to keep from damaging the remaining crops.  A
pronounced trail leading from the gate to the circle had been
formed by the steady stream of visitors and family members; two
smaller trails leading toward Coon Hunter Road were attributed to
sightseers who had come that way after the fence was turned off.
Snowball insisted that he had carefully examined the field
immediately after finding the circle and that there had been no
evidence of trails or footprints at that time.

He explained that he first noticed the circle about 6 pm Thursday
afternoon while driving on Coon Hunter Road.  He added that the
circle was only partially visible from the road, appearing from
that vantage point as a semicircle rather than a complete circle,
but that from the moment he saw it 'something told me this is what
I was going to find.'  He was certain the circle was not there at
6 pm Wednesday (which is corroborated by the fact that the leaves
of the fallen plants were still green when he first examined them
Thursday evening).  He concluded that the circle must been formed
some time Wednesday night; but he could recall nothing unusual
about that night, and he confessed that he was completely baffled
by the whole thing.  He also said that he had never had any
problems in the past with vandals, pranksters, trespassers,
thieves, or any other peculiar or troublesome events.

Snowball reported the incident to the Scott County Sheriff's
Department almost immediately (at 7:06 pm Thursday according to
the official report), but the investigating officer had dismissed
the incident as an act of 'vandalism' despite an inability to find
any footprints or any evidence of how it was accomplished. [3]
Snowball said that the incident had left him 'keyed up' and
nervous, and that he had trouble sleeping Thursday night; he said
it bothered him to think that things like this could happen on his
land without his knowledge or consent.

Within the circle, the corn plants had been swirled counter-
clockwise around the center in a manner similar to the wheat
circles in England, with the individual stalks lying at right
angles to the radius.  With few exceptions the stalks were not
broken off but rather had been simply pushed over flat against the
ground as if by a high wind, with the roots on one side pulled out
of the ground and those on the other still buried.  (Those stalks
that were broken off--we counted only four, all clustered together
near the western edge of the circle--were broken cleanly just
above the roots, and there was still considerable moisture in the
break.)  There was no evidence of any damage to leaves or stalks
(both of which are very fragile due to the low rainfall in recent
weeks), and none of the ears had been detached.  Four other plants
which had previously been pulled over and broken by foraging
raccoons (as evidenced by their gnawed and discolored ears) were
still standing in various parts of the circle; they measured
between 19 and 30 inches tall and showed no evidence of recent
damage.  In one place--again on the western edge--the leaves
seemed to have been swirled around adjacent stalks somewhat like
the 'braiding' patterns reported in English wheat circles.

We measured the circle's diameter half a dozen times, and each
time arrived at the figure of 46.5 feet with an error of at most a
couple of inches.  The investigating officer from the Sheriff's
office had examined the center of the circle and found no evidence
that a spike or post had been driven into the ground there; we
conducted our own search and found nothing either.  The
circumference was clearly defined, again in the manner of the
English circles; a plant inside the circle would be pushed over
and lying perfectly flat, while another plant only six inches away
but outside the circle would be standing perfectly straight and
untouched.  The only irregularity was on the western edge, where
two or three plants outside the circle were slightly damaged; but
Snowball attributed this to the carelessness of the sightseers who
had come from that direction and insisted it had not been that way
when he first arrived on the scene.

The ground in this particular field is mostly clay and was
extremely dry (again due to the near-drought conditions), with no
evidence of any moisture at all in the first three or four inches
of soil.  Snowball informed us that the field is neither deeply
tilled nor chemically fertilized; instead he prefers to turn the
cows loose in it after the harvest and 'let them fertilize it for
me.'  As a result, the soil is quite hard and compacted.
Nevertheless, the surface was covered with a light, powdery layer
of dust which was easily disturbed; a cooler carried into the
circle earlier in the day by one of Snowball's friends had left
clear marks everywhere it was set down.  We found it was possible
to walk through the field without leaving footprints if one wore
flat-bottomed shoes and took great care, but field boots left
characteristic marks everywhere.

There was no obvious difference between the ground inside the
circle and the ground outside of it, and no evidence of
desiccation (beyond the drying and yellowing one would normally
expect of uprooted plants in the hot summer sun).  Several grass
plants were still green and standing amid the flattened corn, as
were a number of shorter buttonweeds; but the taller buttonweeds
had been broken (although not completely detached) and then
knocked over in the same spiral pattern as the corn.  Near the
center of the circle one very tall buttonweed plant had been
broken twice and left standing so that it formed a square with the
ground about two feet on a side.  The top edge of this particular
plant was a noticeably different color than the rest of it (grey
instead of dark green), but otherwise there was no unusual
discoloration of any of the plants.

As evening came on, we noticed a fair number of flies on the
fallen corn, but there was no other insect activity that we could
find.  Snowball did inform us, however, that there had been some
rootworm infestation in the field.  (Since rootworm weakens the
stalk near the base, it could explain the handful of plants which
had been broken off instead of uprooted.)  We took pictures of
everything we could think of, but did not take any soil or
vegetation samples both because of the lateness of our arrival and
because we have not yet arranged for use of the necessary
laboratory facilities.

On our way out of the field we encountered a small herd of cattle,
both cows and bulls, penned up near the old silo.  They seemed
unusually attentive to us, drawing up together in a mass and
staring at us for as long as we stood still.  At the slightest
movement, however, they 'spooked' and ran some distance away, then
turned and stared again.  Snowball's family said that their cows
have always been nervous and easily upset, so this is presumably
'normal' behavior for them, but it seemed very strange to us.  We
asked Snowball whether there had been any mutilations or missing
cattle in the area; he said he was not aware of any, but that with
cattle often set free to forage in the fields it might be days
before anyone would notice if one did turn up missing.

During the two hours we spent at Snowball Meyer's farm, there was
a steady stream of friends and neighbors who wandered by to see
the circle.  During the course of the ensuing discussions, we
picked up the names of three other witnesses to strange events on
Wednesday night and Thursday morning.  During the next few days I
talked with these witnesses by telephone and discovered that
Our second witness, J.H., is also a farmer in the Blue Grass area.
He lives east of Blue Grass and north of Highway 61, which puts
him about three-quarters of a mile northwest of Snowball Meyer's
place.

J.H. told me that early Thursday morning, some time between 2:00
and 3:00 am, he got up to go to the bathroom and heard a strange
sound, coming from the southeast, which lasted for about two
minutes.  He said that he 'never heard anything like it before,'
but at the time he attributed it to a tractor-trailer rig having
some kind of trouble on the highway.  Now, in light of the other
events of that night, he now wonders if it might have been
something else.  He described the noise as a 'rumbling sound with
a kind of bumping inside it' like 'a semi about to throw four caps
[tire re-treads] at once.'  He said that at night in the country,
especially in the kind of weather they had been having lately, it
was possible to hear noises from far away, and he considered it
quite possible that he could have heard sounds from the vicinity
of Snowball's farm.  He says he 'could kick himself' for not
looking out his bedroom window; it faces toward the east, and he
believes he might have been able to see the source of the sound if
he had only looked.

Our third witness, M.A., is a 47-year-old housewife.  She has been
married for 26 years, and lives with her husband (an ex-fireman
who lost his legs in a work-related accident), her mother, and
C.S., a 34-year-old friend of the family who helps care for her
husband; they also have an adopted daughter.  She has an eleventh-
grade education but seems intelligent and articulate; she smokes
but does not drink or use drugs.  She has never had any psychic or
occult experiences, and until last November had no interest
whatever in UFOs.  (In fact, she says she has long had an actual
aversion to the subject--'whenever someone would mention them, I'd
get up and walk away.')  She was raised Roman Catholic, and her
husband was raised in a Protestant church, but she says their
different backgrounds were never a problem; they 'believe in God'
but are not particularly religious and do not attend services
regularly.  She prefers a 'slow-paced, quiet life' and "doesn't
want any attention'; she thinks she 'may have made a mistake" in
telling people about her experiences because now they make fun of
her and think she is crazy.

M.A. has been seeing UFOs in the Blue Grass area since November
1990, when she was driving at night with her mother and saw a
strange light in the sky.  It drew nearer and finally hovered
about 150 feet above their car.  At first she thought it might be
a helicopter, but then decided that wasn't possible because it
made no discernible noise.  She stopped the car, turned off the
engine, and verified that she and her mother were both seeing the
same thing:  a classic flying saucer.

She described the saucer as having a silvery metallic skin, small
square windows 'like bathroom windows' around the circumference, a
white searchlight on a pole above, a row of white lights around
the rim, and a set of multicolored lights underneath.  Through the
windows she could see what looked like 'a computer room' with
colored lights and screens.  (Her husband runs a computer
bulletin-board system from his home, so the computer metaphor
would come naturally to her.)  The searchlight on the top was
shining forward, in the direction of travel, and was aimed
downward so that it illuminated part of the top of the craft and
bled over the rim 'like a flashlight shining over the edge of a
table top'.  The lights on the underside were clustered together
near the center and were flashing red, green, and white.  She
heard no noise at all,and she described the scene as actually
being quite 'peaceful.'

At first she said she was terrified, but then 'some kind of force'
took the fear away and she was able to contemplate the vehicle
calmly for about ten minutes.  Finally she started the engine and
began to drive away, and the craft immediately moved away and was
lost to sight.  Three or four times since then she has seen a
light which she believes to be the same craft moving in the
distance, especially late at night when she is travelling alone.
She finally got disgusted and decided to ignore it because of the
ridicule she was getting from her friends.
A couple of weeks before the corn-circle incident she saw the
light again and became extremely angry.  She 'thought' (rather
than spoke) to it, 'If you're for real, why don't you land?  Give
me some proof.'  She now believes that this may have been the
reason for the circle's formation two weeks later.

About 12:30 or 1:00 am Thursday morning she was driving east on
Highway 61, returning from a friend's house where she had gone to
watch cable TV.  Off to her left she saw the light again over the
fields north of the highway; she said it seemed to be directly
over Snowball Meyer's bean field.  Once again she decided to
ignore it, but after turning south onto Coon Hunter Road she
realized the light was also moving south, across the highway and
toward her.  As she watched in  her rear-view mirror, the light
stopped over Snowball's corn field and began to descend, dropping
straight down until she could no longer see it.  She continued
home and said nothing to anybody.  (And lest anyone think the
witness was merely confused by the full moon, it should be noted
that the moon at that hour was in the southwest, ahead and to her
right.  It could not have been visible in her rear-view mirror.)
Thursday morning she awoke with a headache and a backache, and her
ear hurt, all of which she attributed to 'sleeping on it wrong.'
She took a couple of aspirin, and the pain was gone by the end of
the day, but her back continued to be 'uncomfortable.'  She said
that C.S. commented to her that she had come in awfully late, 'in
the middle of the night'; she is confused by this, since she is
certain it could not have been much later than 1:00 am when she
arrived.

Friday, on the noon news, she saw the corn-circle report and
immediately went out to Snowball's farm.  She said that part of
her concern was that the news report was incorrect--they had said
the circle appeared Thursday night, when in fact she 'knew' it had
to have been Wednesday night.  She arrived while the news crew was
still on location and attempted to convince them of the correct
date, but they stuck by their story until Snowball agreed with
her.

When Snowball invited her to visit the circle, she replied that
she didn't need to 'because I already know what it's going to look
like.'  She did finally go to the site and viewed it from the
shelter of the still-standing corn, but could not bring herself to
cross the threshold into the circle itself.  She said that she got
'real, real scared' and had a strong feeling that she was "not
invited.'  She was afraid that if she stepped inside the circle,
something very bad would happen--but she had no idea what.
The events since last November have been difficult for M.A.  In
addition to teasing and ridicule from others, she has herself
wondered from time to time if she was losing her mind.  During the
course of the interview, she must have asked me a dozen times if I
thought she was crazy; she seemed much relieved to be hear that
there are thousands of others who have had similar experiences.

She says that her outlook on life has not been changed by her
experiences, and that she still has no interest in UFOs except as
they affect her directly.  In spite of her own experience with
them, she 'still doesn't know if I believe in them or not' and has
'tried to push it away.'  She says she has no interest in hearing
about the UFO experiences of others because she 'doesn't want to
start imagining things.'  She only wants to know the answers to
three questions:  (1) How was her fear taken away when she
encountered her first UFO last November?  (2) Why was she so
afraid to enter the crop circle in Snowball's corn field?  (3) Why
was she picked out for this bizarre sequence of events?  She says
that once these questions have been answered to her satisfaction,
she never wants to hear about UFOs again.
Our fourth witness, S.S., can contribute little to the immediate
events of August 21/22, 1991, but she has much to say about their
background.

S.S. is a divorced factory worker who lives with her parents.
(Her father is a firm skeptic and has never seen anything in spite
of her efforts to show things to him.  She says that 'they don't
like him.')  She began seeing lights in the sky near Blue Grass
about two years ago, and saw them quite frequently thereafter--
especially in the autumn--until last fall when they abruptly
stopped.  Because she works second shift in a nearby community,
she is often on the road late at night, and she says the lights
have frequently 'followed her home' from work.  At times she has
seen rows of cars stopped alongside Highway 61 in the early-
morning hours so the passengers could watch the distant lights
maneuver in the sky.

She described the lights as 'like a star' but says she can pick
them out as being somehow different from real stars, and that on
occasion they will suddenly drop down out of the sky and begin
moving across the fields.  She has also sometimes noticed that
when following her they seem to be 'in distress'; on these
occasions they display a contrail and seem to have difficulty
catching up with her.  They often travel in pairs, one large white
light accompanied by a smaller red light.  The larger light, she
says, generally stays north of the highway; but the small red
light has been seen to zip across the highway and travel around by
itself.  Sometimes it descends into the fields near her house and
remains there for long periods of time, giving her the impression
it is 'watching' her.  Once it sat behind her barn for a long time
and was viewed by her mother as well.

S.S. has apparently had at least two close encounters.  One, which
was conveyed to me by MUFON investigator Grey Woodman, happened in
1980 in Davenport, Iowa, when her car was approached by a bright
light and time seemed to slow down.  The other experience occurred
about two years ago when her boyfriend called her outside to
witness a huge UFO passing silently over her house.  She described
it as 'shaped like a sting ray' and so low that "if they had
dropped a ladder down I could have climbed aboard.'

Wednesday night at about 9:30 pm she saw the distant lights again
for the first time this year while she was on her way to work.
Once again they were on the north side of Highway 61, heading west
toward Muscatine.  She did not see anything on her way home
Like M.A., S.S. has received some amount of teasing and abuse from
others who have heard about her experiences; some have told her
that she ought to take up with M.A., because 'she sees that kind
of stuff, too.'  She seems less bothered by it all, however, and
is more inclined to challenge scoffers to come out and see for
themselves.

DISCUSSION:  CROP CIRCLE FORMATION
----------------------------------

Much of our discussion with witnesses and with other researchers
about this case has centered on how this and other crop circles
could have been formed.
The easiest explanation, of course, is a hoax.  And, indeed, there
are some elements that might be consistent with a hoax.  The
center of the circle fell precisely between two rows of corn,
which is where one would expect a hoaxer to begin; and it was a
bright moonlit night, which would have obviated the need for
artificial illumination.

On the other hand, those who offer this answer will be hard-
pressed to come up with any mechanism consistent with the rest of
the physical evidence:

-The circle was perfectly round to within a few inches--about
one percent of the radius.
-The individual corn stalks were precisely laid out at right
angles to the radius.
-There were no signs of abrasion on the sides of the stalks, no
damage to the leaves, and no detached ears of corn.
-Small weeds and grass in the circle were not trampled, broken,
or otherwise damaged.
-Stalks which had already been broken by predators were left
standing; only tall-standing, intact stalks were knocked down.
-There was no evidence of a central stake, footprints, or other
marks of human intervention.

In general, force applied to the upper part of a mature corn stalk
will cause it to snap near that point; force applied to the lower
stalk will break it off between four and six inches above the
ground.  We found no evidence of either kind of damage in the
circle.  All but a handful of stalks were partially uprooted; the
rest were snapped off within an inch of the ground.  Both are
consistent with a force applied evenly to the entire length of the
stalk rather than at a particular point, which would seem to rule
out any mechanism involving a rope or chain.  The only hoaxing
method we can envision would require applying a slowly increasing
pressure at the base of each individual plant--within the first
six inches or so above the ground--until the roots gave way and
the plant toppled over.  Such an approach would be incredibly
time-consuming; there are approximately *one thousand* individual
plants in a circle of this size.  Several people might be able to
do it in an hour or two if they never stopped to rest and never
made a mistake; one person might do it in half the night.  If done
with bare hands it would require a lot of kneeling and crawling
around, which would almost certainly have left marks in the dust;
if done with machinery it should have left some kind of marks on
the stalks.  Further complicating the issue is the electric fence
(which would have required travel through the homestead area to
reach the gate) and the fact that dragging or carrying machinery
through the close-standing stalks should have left tell-tale
signs.  While a hoax can never be absolutely ruled out (people
can, after all, be extraordinarily clever when they want to be),
it seems extremely unlikely in this instance.

I discussed weather as an explanation for the circle with both
Snowball and J.H., but both firmly dismissed this possibility.
Snowball admitted that the field where the circle appeared is 'one
of the worst for windstorms' and that 'this hill catches it all
the time.'  But both he and J.H. insisted that never in their many
years of experience with wind damage had they ever seen corn
knocked over in a single perfect circle and the plants otherwise
left undamaged.  Normal storm winds, they said, will uproot the
stalks in a similar fashion, but in a straight line instead of a
circle; furthermore, there is always a considerable amount of
damage to the plants, especially torn or detached leaves, and
there are generally a significant number of plants left standing
in the midst of the damage.  A typical whirlwind, on the other
hand--far from forming a single perfect circle--will 'chew up'
crops in a long, jagged scar, leaving them tangled and torn but
still standing.  Finally, it should be noted that the weather in
the Blue Grass area during the time in question was dry and clear,
and the wind was less than 10 miles per hour--hardly consistent
with a violent windstorm.

The 'plasma vortex' explanation was initially attractive, since
this little-understood phenomenon allegedly forms near-perfect
spheres within which the kinds of high winds required by this case
can occur.  That line of thought fell apart, however, when we
learned that a crop circle formed last year in Milan, Illinois was
also measured at precisely 46.5 feet.[2]  It seems extremely
unlikely, to say the least, that 'plasma vortices' or any other
natural phenomenon would create two circles of identical diameter
within ten miles of each other in two successive summers.  This
would seem to require some kind of intelligent origin for both
circles, whether human or otherwise.  It should also be noted that
this particular circle formed in the middle of the only open
expanse in an area cluttered with trees, fences, roads, buildings,
and farm equipment.  One would expect a natural phenomenon to be a
little less discriminating.

Of course, in the Milan case the circle was swirled clockwise
instead of counterclockwise, and most of the stalks were broken
off at ground level instead of uprooted.  However, this is not so
great a discrepancy as it might seem.  Whether corn will uproot or
snap off in high wind depends on how deeply it is rooted and
whether or not it is infested with insects which can weaken the
stalk.  In the Blue Grass circle, the roots of the corn plants
were only three or four inches deep (somewhat shallow for this
late in the year) which may have made them easier to uproot than
normal.  Furthermore, the one place where we found some stalks
broken off instead of uprooted was on the western (i.e., down-
slope) edge, where one would expect greater moisture and deeper
root systems.  Finally, the roots of the plants in question were
tangled together more tightly than most, and may have presented
greater opposition to whatever force toppled the other plants.

One other point about the Blue Grass circle needs to be
emphasized.  Whatever acted to create it, it did not involve the
kind of broad, crushing force that would be generated by large
planks or sheets of plywood--or, for that matter, by a grounded
flying saucer.  Some of the plants (the grass, smaller
buttonweeds, and previously broken corn stalks) remained upright
and undamaged, while everything around them was being flattened;
consequently, if some kind of vehicle descended toward the field
as M.A. claims, it could not have come closer than about thirty
inches to the ground.  It would seem that the force which created
the circle, whatever it was, acted on the stalks individually, not
collectively--and that fact must be paramount in any theory that
attempts to explain it.

DISCUSSION:  SIMILARITIES TO OTHER CASES
----------------------------------------

This case has so many similarities to others in the literature
that it's hard to know where to begin.  The Milan circle has
already been mentioned, of course, as well as the similarity to
characteristics of English crop circles.  But there are others.
Indeed, in many ways Blue Grass looks like a 'classic' case in the
sense that statistically it falls right in the middle on just
about everything.

To begin with, it took place on a Wednesday night, which just
happens to be the day of the week when the plurality of UFO
sightings occur.[4]  For another, it happened in a spot which was
bound to draw attention, rather than off in the middle of nowhere
as one might expect.  As John Keel put it in his book 'UFOs:
Operation Trojan Horse', UFOs 'prefer to land in the fields of
occupied farms and on major highways close to big cities'.[5]
This case exhibits both characteristics at the same time.

But the case that most often came to mind while investigating this
one was Budd Hopkins' 'Kathie Davis' case.[6]  As in the "Davis"
case, we have a mysterious circle forming in someone's back yard,
apparently in connection with a UFO landing; we have a witness who
reports possible missing time and physical complaints (even to the
location of that complaint in the ear); and we have a neighbor
reporting an odd roaring sound at the end of the incident.  Most
importantly, though, we have a whole group of people who all know
one another and all seem to be involved with the phenomenon in one
way or another, either as witnesses or as victims.  One wonders
what a door-to-door survey of Blue Grass and its environs might
turn up.

AFTERMATH
---------

According to Snowball Meyer, the mayor of Blue Grass went up in a
small plane over the weekend to get a look at the circle from the
air, and immediately spotted a second circle in another one of
Snowball's corn fields.  This circle was adjacent to Highway 61
(only about 40 feet into the field) and approximately the same
size as the first; but unlike the first one, the stalks had all
been broken off about four to six inches above the ground--
precisely what one would expect from a hoax.  Snowball was of the
opinion that this circle was created by pranksters Saturday night
after news of the first circle got around, and he was not at all
pleased about it.  'If it's a prank and it keeps happening,
somebody's going to get hurt,' he warned.

Because of the near certainty that the second circle was a hoax,
we chose not to investigate it.  We do intend, however, to follow
up from time to time with witnesses M.A. and S.S., and to track
down some of the witnesses to other sightings in the Blue Grass
area.  The more we dig into this case, the more we are convinced
that we have just scratched the surface.

Or, rather, almost nothing.  Friday night after returning from
Blue Grass, I excitedly called a fellow researcher and related in
some detail what I had seen; and with my permission he recorded
the call for future reference.  On Sunday afternoon he called me
back in a state of great agitation.  Saturday night his roommate
had returned from an errand to find their housecat inexplicably
traumatized and the room filled with the feeling that 'somebody
else has been here.'  Then, about 3 am Sunday morning, they had
been awakened by a series of poltergeist-style poundings on the
outside wall of their apartment building.  Finally, to top it all
off, when he played back the tape of our conversation on Sunday
afternoon, it was filled with a background chorus of moaning and
howling that sounded like something right out of 'The Exorcist.'
He still hasn't been able to determine how or why any of this
happened, or whether it is related to our investigation in Blue
Grass.  Neither have I.

CONCLUSION
----------

In some respects the Blue Grass case is almost too good.  It seems
to have something for everybody:  nocturnal lights, strange
noises, crop circles, close encounters with flying saucers and
other exotic craft, the 'red light' which travels sometimes alone
and sometimes with others, possible missing time, and perhaps even
an abduction.  All we need is a dead cow--and I wouldn't be
surprised if one of those turned up sooner or later.  If I hadn't
visited the circle and talked to the witnesses myself, I might be
inclined to dismiss Blue Grass as a disinformation experiment by
some overzealous debunker to see just how gullible Ufologists can
be.

But I have visited the circle, and I have talked to the witnesses,
and I can't even explain what *I* saw--much less what they tell me
they saw (and heard).  Of course, it is always possible to dismiss
the testimony of inconvenient witnesses with the now-infamous
accusation of 'hoaxes, hallucinations, and misidentification of
known phenomena'; but I see no reason to do so in this case, and
many reasons not to.  The stories are consistent and mutually
supportive.  The witnesses do not exhibit any obvious signs of
deception, or of instability beyond the stress and uncertainty one
would expect from those who have experienced the unknown.  At this
point, anyway, and until some evidence to the contrary emerges, I
am inclined to believe them.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
----------------

My thanks and appreciation go to Robert W. Atwood, my fellow
researcher in this case, for his invaluable assistance and
encouragement; and to Dr. Grey Woodman of MUFON for sharing insights and
information from his own investigations of the Blue Grass and Milan cases.
---------------
[1] U.S. Weather Service, Moline, Illinois (personal contact,
8/26/91).
[2] Jeff Fischer, 'Crop Circle at Milan, Illinois', MUFON Journal
#279, July 1991.
[3] Incident Report #91-36708, Scott County Sheriff's Department,
Davenport, Iowa.
[4] John Keel, 'UFOs: Operation Trojan Horse' (New York: Putnam,
1970),
[5] Keel, p. 178.
[6] Budd Hopkins, 'Intruders: The Incredible Visitations at Copley
Woods' (New York: Ballantine, 1987).
[7] Keel, p. 173.

--EOF--

Don

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: How To Build a UFO Detector
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 16:27:39 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 71
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3754 sci.skeptic:18993

Came across this little "jewel" the other day..

((I don't write this stuff folks..I just pass it along :-))

----Begin Included text------------------------------------------


Date: 12-28-91  13:43
From: Bruce Alexander
Subj: Detector

                            _______________
                          /                 \
                         |     _______       |
         Glass housing-->|    I.......I      |
                         |    I:      :      |
                         |    I:<-----:------|--To battery +
                         |    I:      :      |
                         |    I:..... :      |
                         |    I::  .:.:..<---|--Wire loop
               L-strut --|--->I::     :      |  to battery -
                         |    I::     :      |
                         |    I::   MMMMM<---|--Magnet
                         |    I::            |
                         |    I::            |
                          \   I::           /
                           |__I::__________|
                        BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB<--Base(wood)
                               ::
                  .............::.............
                  :                          :
                  :                          :
       __________ :                          : ____________
      |          |+                          -|            |
      | Battery  |                            |   Buzzer   |
      |          |                           +|____________|
      |__________|-                          :
                  :..........................:

    OK, John, here it is.  It can be constructed for the price of a 12v
battery, a door buzzer or bell a magnet and some wire.  The housing is a
large jar such as institutional size foods come in.  The base is a simple
wood block and the strut can be a coat hanger.  The rest should be self
explanatory, but if you have any questions, feel free.

    The magnet is delfected by any strong magnetic field, such as that which
is purportedly produced by a UFO.  If the field is strong enough, the circuit
is closed and the buzzer sounds.  The loop shouldn't be more than 1" in
diameter and the wire should be as thin as possible depending on the battery
you use.  The beauty of this is it will not make a sound if the UFO is an
airplane or AF test craft, unless they are using exotic power supplies.

    One downside is the device is not very portable.  It must be stationary.
You can add a switch to turn it off during transportation if you are moving
from site to site very often.

    Have fun!

                                    bca


--EOF--

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: UFO Trivia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 16:32:13 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 71
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3755 sci.skeptic:18994


Sighting Trivia - Off MUFONET

---Begin Included text-------------------------------------------



Message #133 "MUFON_WIRE"
Date: 13-Nov-91 21:11
From: JOHN KOMAR
To:   All
Subj: UFO Trivia

          MUFONET-BBS GROUP  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                         UFO TRIVIA
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~
     [From Louisiana MUFON, Vol.3, No. 6, Nov-Dec 1991]

-  In 1990, over 10,000 UFOs were reported:
     4,000 in the United States
     2,000 in South America
     3,000 in the U.S.S.R.
     1,000 in the rest of Asia
     500 in Europe

-  Data from Paul Ferrughel of the National Sighting
Research Center indicates you are most likely to see a UFO
between 9 and 10 PM during January.

-  For the five year period of 1986-90, January, followed
closely by October, was the peak month.  June was by far the
lull month.  February, March, April, May and December were
strong months.

-  The 9 to 10 PM time slot was almost twice as active as
the next period.  As suspected, the hours from 7 PM to 2 AM
were the more active time periods.

-  The duration of the typical sighting was from 3 to 9
minutes.  Sightings lasting from 10 to 27 minutes were next,
and those from 1 to 2 minutes were next.  Sightings of less
than one minute far exceeded sightings longer than 30
minutes.

-  Disk/round UFOs and "other" shapes were reported
significantly more often.  Deltoid shapes were next most
popular followed by Ovals, Lights, Rectangular and
Cylinders.

-  1988 and 1989 were peak years for reports, followed by
1990.  1986 had the least number of sightings during the
five year period evaluated.

=END=


Regards, John

---
 * Origin: MUTUAL-UFO NETWORK - MUFONET-BBS NETWORK 901-785-4943 (1:123/26)

--EOF--

Don

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!sdd.hp.com!hp-cv!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!kevinc
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Loch Ness Monster
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 18:02:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA
Lines: 1

Please excuse my language. :-)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!wsu-cs!cms.cc.wayne.edu!MEDELMA
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 20:55:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Wayne State University, C&IT
Lines: 55

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Mr. X) writes:

>   (some deleted)
>    I was trained as a sharpshooter (read sniper) and can say without
>    reserve that I have never met another sharpshooter that could have
>    pulled off the stunt that Oswald is credited with, and I have known
>    some mean shots.  It would have been hard to do with a semi-automatic
>    rifle, and virtually impossible with bolt action.  If you don't
>    believe me, get a rifle, spend a couple of years training 5 days a
>    week and then show me that you could do what Oswald is claimed to have
>    done.  I wont hold my breath.
>
 (generic paranoid fantasy deleted)
>
>    I have several friends that are ex-CIA and many of the stories they
>    have related to me makes everything in JFK quite believeable and
>    quite likely true or very close to it.  Anyone who believes the
>    official line as presented by the Warren Commission has got to be a
>    complete fool.  Not only was the conspiracy covered up, but those
>    responsible did not even do a good job of it; a fact which I believe
>    clearly indicates their low opinion of and indeed their utter contempt
>    for the American public.
     (bullshit left in)
>    -X
     (ditto silly sig)
 Let's get of the obvious bullshit out of the way. Probably none
of the posters- or the mysterious Mr. X.- has ever really tried
rapid fire with a bolt gun. Go to the National Matches at Camp Perry
and watch a few hundred guys empty two clips from a bolt-action
rifle faster than you can imagine- all this while putting the
shots into a small bull at 200 yards. (Actually bolt-action rifles
are not as many these days at the national matches, but in the past
it was all bolt guns).

It was *not* an impossible shot, or series of shots. The mysterious
"magic bullet" was *not* undamaged- but those with more interest in
fantasy than in truth keep showing the one picture that makes it
appear undamaged- while other photos- freely available- show a
very distorted projectile in one dimension.

Was Oswald a poor shot in the Marines? How, than, did he qualify?
The funny thing to me is that all these inane theories have to
construct a reason for the CIA to kill Kennedy- the most hawkish
president since Teddy R, the man who ran on the platform that he
would outspend the Republicans on defense! Absolute stupidity.

No one ever considers the much more likely scenario of the Soviets
running Oswald- they had more to gain in eliminating a president
given to confrontation and risk-taking. But that doesn't appeal
to the buffs. They're not happy until they can find the CIA lurking
behind every bush.  Boo!

Let's get this list back on solid ground- discussing how crop
circles are misdirected messages to the dolphins...
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!qolight
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <422800018@peg>
Date: 4 Jan 92 04:50:00 GMT
References: <20908924@[e-mail]>
Lines: 4
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail]:-2090892465:peg:422800018:000:196
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!qolight    Jan  4 00:50:00 1992


Just one small Question????....when are CIA operatives EVER 'Ex'
Draw you're own answers...folks...once you're a 'family member' allways
a 'family member'....my $.02 worth Mr. X....Regards Photon
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!nexus
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Bruce Cah[D Cathie/Deyo Conferen
Message-ID: <422800017@peg>
Date: 4 Jan 92 03:13:00 GMT
Lines: 13
Nf-ID: #N:peg:422800017:000:640
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!nexus    Jan  3 23:13:00 1992


Stan Deyo & Bruce Cathie Conference

Stan Deyo and Bruce Cathie will be doing a two day conference in
Sydney, Australia during May this year.  The two day event will be
held on May 9th and May 10th in Sydney, and repeated the following
weekend in Brisbane, Qld.  Tickets cost $45.00 (Aussie dollars)
per person per day IF paid prior to February 29th 1992, else they
cost $55.00 per person per day.  (Add $10.00 per person per day if
you want lunch laid on) Contact for bookings:  Duncan Roads Nexus
Magazine c/- Post Office, Mapleton. Qld. 4560  Australia Ph:
Australia 074 760 122 Fx: Australia  074 760 495 Hope to see some
of you there.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!rpi!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!yanoff
From: [e-mail] (Scott A. Yanoff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Why would gov't hide info.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 22:03:11 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 13


Why would the U.S. government hide info regarding UFOs from the public?

What would they gain?

Secondly, how would they hide this info, without people hearing the truth from
other goverments around the world?

--
   !\   /\   _/\_  [e-mail]
  _! ! !  ! !_  _!
 ! ! !_!_ ! !    !___    MILWAUKEE,
 ! ! !   !!_!    !   !_   WISCONSIN
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hp-cv!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!kevinc
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: My Unarius Past Life Past Life Reading
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jan 92 19:19:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA
Lines: 60


> I thought some of you net folks might find this interesting or at
> least entertaining.

  Your still batting a thousand with me.


> Ioshanna: I will ask my dearly beloved Brothers of the Flame

     Hmmm, do you suppose she may have merely channeled this
     group for this one ?


> find out some of his past lifetimes, especially Lemurla.

Don, I have to wonder - what would have been your reaction if she/he/they
told you that in your past life you were just a plain old ordinary run
of the mill milk cow ? Would you have still posted this ?


> Brother: Yes, indeed, he was totally involved in the holocaust which
> destroyed the continent of Mu.

Continent of Mu - see, I told you !  Don, is there something about your-
self you want to tell us ?  Whats your *utter* capacity ?


>  He was finally taken off guard and destroyed by the very weapon
>  which has been related to a a disintegrating machine.

Well, at least you went out fast. Shoot, they could have just sliced
your penis..... they've done it for others.


> sought the guidance of a Guru who practiced the technique of levitation

> defending himself against all odds physically. Although he was taught
> that this would not be used, only in defense and without harm to
> others he did, after being confronted by these men, six in number,
> with weapons and threatened to be destroyed, he used his knowledge of
> mind mesmerizing power and also his physical strength and knowledge of
> defense and in a fit o anger, emotion, insecurity of survival, etc.,
> he did kill all six.
----------

Ahh, the ol' levitating cow trick. Think of their humiliation. I can't
help but to wonder, that maybe in some of the more remote pastures
of this country, cows still practice the ancient Tibetan art of Mu-Fu.
Mooo must obviously just be some bovine mantra. I believe its all
starting to become very clear to me now.

Keep up the good work Don (you big beef stud).

 I love this group !!! :-))))

( To be flattened by a floating Tibetan cow. Sheece, no more cattle prods
  in my barn I tell ya. I wonder if I could have been a cow ? Nahh, I'm not
  that lucky.)

Kc  ;-)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!rutgers!hsdndev!cfa203!job
From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Oliver Breen)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ET to phone Home under new UN Guidelines
Summary: Loose lips sink ships
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jan 92 01:00:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, Cambridge, MA,  USA
Lines: 23
Xref: ns-mx sci.astro:13794 sci.skeptic:19010 alt.alien.visitors:3762

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>Laugh if you will, but this is soon to be a reality:
>---Begin included Text-----------------------------------------
>From The Daily Telegraph of London:
>   If signs of life on other planets are ever detected, the news will not
>reach the mass of mankind until a complicated process of verification and
>approval is thoroughly exhausted....
>   The first thing the radio-astronomer must do is to record the alien
>signals, then contact other scientists worldwide to verify them.
>   Then follows an approach to the International Astronomical Union, which
>will send out an official notification through the Central Bureau for
>Astronomical Telegrams.

Maybe I'm just cynical, but all of this is to be done without a peep
to the press?  I never realized that IAU circulars were classified!
:-)



--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey Oliver Breen     Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
[phone]           60 Garden St., Room B-431, MS 6, Cambridge, MA  02138
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!network.ucsd.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!porthos.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Why would gov't hide info.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jan 92 06:19:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 68
Cc: mcgrew


    [e-mail] (Scott A. Yanoff) writes:
    Why would the U.S. government hide info regarding UFOs from
    the public?

    What would they gain?


... well, there are many levels of answers; here are a few:

1) The US government classifies many things, some for non-obvious
reasons (some would argue for no reason at all).  The White House food
menus are classified ("Secret"), for instance.  They might classify it
merely because someone decided it should be done.

2) Presuming that crashed and/or retrieved UFOs existed, on a purely
planetary level, the government would not want other governments (e.g.
Soviet, Iraqi, Libya) to know that the US has "the goodies", or what
the goodies are.  In this country, with an unsupervised press, to keep
things from the bad guys, one must also keep it from one's own people.
The government does this with Stealth technology, and spy satellite
technology for instance.

3) Other contributors to this list have pointed out the "cultural
shock" aspects (to which past terrestrial examples wouldn't hold a
candle).  Consider the technical aspects (imagine you were a molecular
biologist who had been working all your life on a problem, to get
close, and then be handed the answer literally from out of the blue --
kind of make you feel like your whole life was a waste, wouildn't
it?); the political aspects; even the religious aspects.  It might be
that the powers-that-be are waiting, holding back such information
until the time is right (whenever that is).  You might think of this
as a sort of a "Prime Directive" in reverse.

4)  It might be that there is some sort of threat associated with
UFO's (though I tend to doubt this), and such information is being
withheld to avoid useless panic and upheaval.

5) The government might keep evidence and documentation (and perhaps
even witnesses) secreted in a remote location (descriptions of various
Cheyenne-Mountain-like places have surfaced from time to time).  The
government is certainly capable of construction and operation of
facilities that are unknown to the public; underground, on islands,
in Alaska, etc..

... it might seem that some sort of "right to the truth" would
override such, but it always depends on your point of view.


    Secondly, how would they hide this info, without people
    hearing the truth from other goverments around the world?

... well, it might be that the ONLY crashed/retrieved UFOs were within
the USA, in which case there wouldn't be any other government's
information to find out.

    Or, it might be that all governments "in on the secret" are
keeping what they have and know to themselves so that other
governments don't know (or are not sure) what they've got.

    Or, it might be that all the governments concerned have agreed
amongst themselves not to release whatever is held.

    All this is not so unplausible.  A recent example is the existance
of  "Ultra", from WWII, whose existance was rumored but unproven until
the automatic-declassification-rules came into effect.

Charles
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!ucbvax!mtxinu!rtech!ingres!kevinq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Loch Ness Monster
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jan 92 00:14:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Evans) writes:
>Just read in the Jan 14, 1992 Weekly World News, that the group of
>scientists over in scotland have captured the Loch Ness Monster with a
>steel net... Any truth to this, that anyone can verify?
>
>Chuck
>
>--
>Charles-Edward 'Hip-Hoppin' Evans       The doctrine of purgatory is bologna
>[e-mail]                     Therefore I will have a purgatory
>                                        sandwich with mustard.

Yeah, Chuck, it's true. Sorry - had I known you were interested, I would have
invited you over for the barbecue!  Damn, that sob tasted good!


Happy New Year!


kbq



--
Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]
                                    | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com
My opinions are my own.  Should you think otherwise, think again.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!cunews!revcan!fts1!latour!glm
From: [e-mail] (Gary Lawrence Murphy)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ET to phone Home under new UN Guidelines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jan 92 05:20:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Sandelman Software Works, Debugging Department, Ottawa, ON
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx sci.astro:13800 sci.skeptic:19022 alt.alien.visitors:3765

Interesting.  What if the Intergalactic High Council overrides this
process?  Does International Law take precidence, as in the American
model of State vs Fed, or must we bow to the Alien decisions, as with
the Canadian Fed vs. Provincial model? :-)

I'm glad my brother is a lawyer :-) :-)


--
 Gary Lawrence Murphy   [e-mail]   [phone]
========================================================================
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!ames!agate!stanford.edu!rutgers!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!youngs
From: [e-mail] (Scott D. Young)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: INFO: How To Build a UFO Detector
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jan 92 23:51:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Lines: 65
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3766 sci.skeptic:19044

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:

>Came across this little "jewel" the other day..
>
>((I don't write this stuff folks..I just pass it along :-))
>
>----Begin Included text------------------------------------------


>Date: 12-28-91  13:43
>From: Bruce Alexander
>Subj: Detector

>                            _______________
>                          /                 \
>                         |     _______       |
>         Glass housing-->|    I.......I      |
>                         |    I:      :      |
>                         |    I:<-----:------|--To battery +
>                         |    I:      :      |
>                         |    I:..... :      |
>                         |    I::  .:.:..<---|--Wire loop
>               L-strut --|--->I::     :      |  to battery -
>                         |    I::     :      |
>                         |    I::   MMMMM<---|--Magnet
>                         |    I::            |
>                         |    I::            |
>                          \   I::           /
>                           |__I::__________|
>                        BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB<--Base(wood)
>                               ::
>                  .............::.............
>                  :                          :
>                  :                          :
>       __________ :                          : ____________
>      |          |+                          -|            |
>      | Battery  |                            |   Buzzer   |
>      |          |                           +|____________|
>      |__________|-                          :
>                  :..........................:

>    OK, John, here it is.  It can be constructed for the price of a 12v
>battery, a door buzzer or bell a magnet and some wire.  The housing is a
>large jar such as institutional size foods come in.  The base is a simple
>wood block and the strut can be a coat hanger.  The rest should be self
>explanatory, but if you have any questions, feel free.

>    The magnet is delfected by any strong magnetic field, such as that which
>is purportedly produced by a UFO.  If the field is strong enough, the circuit
>is closed and the buzzer sounds.  The loop shouldn't be more than 1" in
>diameter and the wire should be as thin as possible depending on the battery
>you use.  The beauty of this is it will not make a sound if the UFO is an
>airplane or AF test craft, unless they are using exotic power supplies.

   Unfortunately, you may get spurious readings during times of high solar
activity.  I have seen plans for an "Aurora Detector" similar to what is
described.  Basically, the rise in the flux of the magnetic particles from
the sun would trigger the buzzer.  This would be quite erratic, especially
during an auroral display.

   BTW, why do UFO's have intense magnetic fields?  I must have missed that
   part.

   Scott Young
   [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ET to phone Home under new UN Guidelines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jan 92 13:56:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: WorldWide Software
Lines: 7
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:19052 alt.alien.visitors:3767

Can one contact these guys to get the Eatees out of my tooth fillings?
I mean, shouldn't they be broadcasting to the UN Secretary General or
someone, and besides, the noise bothers all my neighbors.
--
I'll leave you with this saying:
On the road, ZIPPY is a pinhead without a purpose, but never
 without a POINT.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!csri.toronto.edu!wayne
From: [e-mail] (Wayne Hayes)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ET to phone Home under new UN Guidelines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jan 92 02:19:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 45
Xref: ns-mx sci.astro:13821 sci.skeptic:19053 alt.alien.visitors:3768

[e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>   If signs of life on other planets are ever detected, the news will not
>reach the mass of mankind until a complicated process of verification and
>approval is thoroughly exhausted.  Under a set of guidelines drawn up by the
>world's scientists, the news must pass through a secret and Byzantine
>notification process before being announced by the United Nations...
>   The first thing the radio-astronomer must do is to record the alien
>signals, then contact other scientists worldwide to verify them.
>   Then follows an approach to the International Astronomical Union, which
>will send out an official notification through the Central Bureau for
>Astronomical Telegrams.
>   After that, the Secretary General of the United Nations,

Why is this laughable?  First, I strongly doubt that the directive
will explicitly state the discovery must be kept secret until this
process is completed.  If it does you can be sure there are scientists
who would make their own decisions of the validity of the evidence and
would act in a way they think right.  Secondly this process is not
"byzantine"; it is quite simple, and not including the UN Secretary
General part, is quite normal for astronomical discoveries.  Don't
forget professional astronomers have telephones, computers, FAXes,
and more, to quickly relay information.  I'm sure something of this
magnitude would get through the grapevine and be either explained (ie.
refuted) or verified as unknown and/or decoded within 24 hours.  You
can be sure that once the "official" announcement by the UN SG was
made, the news would already be public.

>the Institute for
>Space Law, and the International Telecommunications Union Will also be told.
>The latter will ensure that the alien signal is cleared of all earthly radio
>traffic so it comes over loud and clear.

Now *that's* a good idea.

>Only then will the rest of the
>human race be privy to the news that ET may, after all exist.

Bullpucky.  Typical news story ending with a sensationalist statement
meant to sell newspapers.

--
"... when men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures
from Alpha Centauri where *real* small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri..."
  - Douglas Adams, _The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy_.
Wayne Hayes     INTERNET: [e-mail]        CompuServe: 72401,3525
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!milton!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Grays are our FRIENDS !
Summary: What do these aliens want from us anyway?
Keywords: grays, aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jan 92 07:43:04 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 71


The aliens known as the "Grays" are our friends! There have been many
articles around which have mentioned this group of aliens and their
alleged evil intentions, etc. Well, here is an different explanation
for them and their actions. I got the article below from the January
1992 issue of the "Voice of Astara", page 4-5, which I have included
the text from below verbatim. Love is the Answer! May Peace prevail!

---- Begin included message ----

Satsang with Dr. Earlyne - An Answer to End the Confusion

Q: I've read many articles and listened to many tapes wherein it was
stated the ET's having bald heads, small bodies and big eyes are
dangerous, destructive and intend to enslave and manipulate humans.
Would you please comment on this issue as I'm very confused as to what
to believe.

A: I keep receiving letters about this very subject. I've answered
this same question before in a previous Satsang but many must still be
confused. I repeat:
     At one of my Fire Initiation ceremonies I told the audience that
the aliens are an Angelic race. But, they come from different planets
and we are their offspring. They came to Earth many years ago and they
created the Homosapiens by mating with Earthians. The mating almost
wiped out the Neanderthal race. Everything the ET's have done has been
for our good.
     The aliens called the "Grays" have frightened so many people.
These Grays are humanized robots. The Master aliens have taken the
robot and implanted enough intelligence and human parts into the brain
and body of the robot that it has been partially humanized. They have
programmed the robot to fly spaceships. Flying by remote control from
the mother ship, they man the spaceships.
     Some speakers keep telling people these Grays plan to come
swarming in and enslave us. This simply isn't true. They've been
flying spaceships in our skies since 1947. Couldn't they already have
done it? Please don't be afraid. They are planning to do no such
thing. They are abducting some people, true. But they have a pure
motive. They are taking the sperm of the Earthian male and the ovum of
the female. They impregnate a female Earthian with the sperm of a male
alien. Then in the midst of the pregnancy they remove the child from
the uterus. I've written about this in one of my books. They are
bringing about hybrid children for the purpose of creating a superior
race to help save the planet. They want there to be born among us
children like Nikola Tesla. They are coming into our midst with a
mother here and a father on a distant planet or a father here and a
mother there in space.
     When the real aliens make themselves known and seen - the
magnificent beings who manipulate the humanized robots, the grays - we
will see an entirely different approach to the aliens. So pray and
don't be afraid. You are an Astarian!! The only thing that can really
save us and our planet is to have these advanced souls coming among
us. So be grateful they are here. Be grateful for the abductions which
result in a higher type of child. How wonderful it would be to have a
few thousand souls like Nikola Tesla here to change the world.
Perhaps they could force our government to allow a new type of energy
to manifest - solar energy for instance. Cars that operate on water
instead of gasoline - so many things they can and will do. Pray for
the day the real aliens make themselves known. It will be like a
Second Coming - forerunners of the return of Jesus!
     - Dr. Earlyne

---- End included message ----

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|     Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     |     [e-mail]     |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
Path: ns-mx!uunet!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!bu.edu!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: INFO: How To Build a UFO Detector
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jan 92 07:22:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: WorldWide Software
Lines: 12
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3770 sci.skeptic:19060

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott D. Young) writes:

>   BTW, why do UFO's have intense magnetic fields?  I must have missed that
>   part.

Because it gets tiring looking out the window all day long, so they
carry around powerful magnets so you won't miss them.  Note that this
does not apply to all models, dealer installation not included, your
light-yearage may vary.
--
I'll leave you with this saying:
Please come home with me...  I have Tylenol!!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!udecc.engr.udayton.edu!blackbird.afit.af.mil!eagle!rcleveng
From: [e-mail] (Raymond j Clevenger)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jan 92 11:58:20 GMT
References: <20908924@[e-mail]> <422800018@peg>
Organization: Air Force Institute of Technology
Lines: 16
Nntp-Posting-Host: eagle.afit.af.mil

In article <422800018@peg> [e-mail] writes:
>
>Just one small Question????....when are CIA operatives EVER 'Ex'
>Draw you're own answers...folks...once you're a 'family member' allways
>a 'family member'....my $.02 worth Mr. X....Regards Photon

Not true!  When I was stationed at Keesler AFB in Mississippi I Knew a
    1st Lt. who was previously in the CIA.  He recieved his commission
    after resigning, and is now an instructor in computer technology.

-Doogie

'When a man lies he murders some part of the world.
    These are the pale deaths which men must call their lives.
    All this I cannot bear to witness any longer.
    Cannot the Kingdon of Salvation take me home?'-MetallicA
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: INFO: How To Build a UFO Detector
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jan 92 12:36:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Hubble Space Telescope Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 77
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3772 sci.skeptic:19062
Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Scott D. Young) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>>Came across this little "jewel" the other day..
>>
>>((I don't write this stuff folks..I just pass it along :-))
>>
>>----Begin Included text------------------------------------------
>
>
>>Date: 12-28-91  13:43
>>From: Bruce Alexander
>>Subj: Detector
>
>>                            _______________
>>                          /                 \
>>                         |     _______       |
>>         Glass housing-->|    I.......I      |
>>                         |    I:      :      |
>>                         |    I:<-----:------|--To battery +
>>                         |    I:      :      |
>>                         |    I:..... :      |
>>                         |    I::  .:.:..<---|--Wire loop
>>               L-strut --|--->I::     :      |  to battery -
>>                         |    I::     :      |
>>                         |    I::   MMMMM<---|--Magnet
>>                         |    I::            |
>>                         |    I::            |
>>                          \   I::           /
>>                           |__I::__________|
>>                        BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB<--Base(wood)
>>                               ::
>>                  .............::.............
>>                  :                          :
>>                  :                          :
>>       __________ :                          : ____________
>>      |          |+                          -|            |
>>      | Battery  |                            |   Buzzer   |
>>      |          |                           +|____________|
>>      |__________|-                          :
>>                  :..........................:
>
>>    OK, John, here it is.  It can be constructed for the price of a 12v
>>battery, a door buzzer or bell a magnet and some wire.  The housing is a
>>large jar such as institutional size foods come in.  The base is a simple
>>wood block and the strut can be a coat hanger.  The rest should be self
>>explanatory, but if you have any questions, feel free.
>
>>    The magnet is delfected by any strong magnetic field, such as that which
>>is purportedly produced by a UFO.  If the field is strong enough, the circuit
>>is closed and the buzzer sounds.  The loop shouldn't be more than 1" in
>>diameter and the wire should be as thin as possible depending on the battery
>>you use.  The beauty of this is it will not make a sound if the UFO is an
>>airplane or AF test craft, unless they are using exotic power supplies.
>
>   Unfortunately, you may get spurious readings during times of high solar
>activity.  I have seen plans for an "Aurora Detector" similar to what is
>described.  Basically, the rise in the flux of the magnetic particles from
>the sun would trigger the buzzer.  This would be quite erratic, especially
>during an auroral display.

Actually, I doubt that the "Aurora Detector" worked on anywhere near the same
principles as the "UFO Detector" described above.  Of course, this UFO detector
also doubles as an iron detector and and earthquake detector (yes, earthquake
detectors are actually commercially marketed.  The idea is that they detect the
p-wave [a compressional wave, which you perceive as a short sharp shock] which
you might not otherwise notice, and give you a few seconds to get ready for the
s-wave [a shear wave] which follows and which dissipates much more energy than
the p-wave).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj
From: [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ET to phone Home under new UN Guidelines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jan 92 16:33:39 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx sci.astro:13835 sci.skeptic:19070 alt.alien.visitors:3773

[e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
> If signs of life on other planets are ever detected, the news will not
> reach the mass of mankind until a complicated process of verification and
> approval is thoroughly exhausted.  Under a set of guidelines drawn up by the
> world's scientists, the news must pass through a secret and Byzantine
> notification process before being announced by the United Nations...

> The first thing the radio-astronomer must do is to record the alien
> signals, then contact other scientists worldwide to verify them.

> Then follows an approach to the International Astronomical Union, which
> will send out an official notification through the Central Bureau for
> Astronomical Telegrams.

DonA forgot to mention that violation of these rules may result in penal
servitude at the dreaded fluff mines of Obelix for a period not to exceed
3.5 billion years.  Time off for good behavior is rarely given, and sending
or receiving astronomical telegrams is not allowed.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <1992Jan6.141214.26188@anasaz>
Date: 6 Jan 92 14:12:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
]>
]>Your post was interesting until I got to the part about
]>VP Johnson was a Mason who commanded a blood and death oath.

The poster merely pointed out that the Mason's were behind JFK's assasination
so Lyndon Johnson could have M. Monroe and this is all somehow connected
to a giant UFO over Arizona and copper miner's strike.  We all knew that.
Where have you been, lady?

--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Arizona UFO's
Message-ID: <1992Jan6.143203.26432@anasaz>
Date: 6 Jan 92 14:32:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]>    Yes KC I had the same feeling about the incident....that is why I
]>decided to post it....I haven't heard anymore about it since it WAS reported in
]>the local newspapers and the Arizona Daily Star at the time it happened...but,
]>NO OTHER news medium carried it (or was this a cover-up from Uncky Sam?) I have
]>kept my ears open...in touch with friends in the area all the time...even
]>called into the Unsolved Mysteries TV program with questions and as much
]>information as I have, but presently nothing further....

My serious interest in UFOs has waned over the years because I spent so much
time and money looking into case after case only to find the original
reporter had simply made up facts to embelish the story.  I concluded that
all such reports were fabrications and became a by-stander instead of
investigator.

You describe an incident and report a verifiable fact and I'd like to
demonstrate that.  Please provide me with the date this incident was
reported in "the local newspapers and the Arizona Daily Star" so I can
go check it out. I'll send photo copies to interested people.  Since I've
never heard of this incident and am pretty well informed about UFO cases,
my guess is you simply made this all up, including the part about it being
in the newspapers.


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hp-cv!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!kevinc
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Grays are our FRIENDS !
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jan 92 18:03:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA
Lines: 81




>     At one of my Fire Initiation ceremonies I told the audience that
> the aliens are an Angelic race. But, they come from different planets
> and we are their offspring. They came to Earth many years ago and they
> created the Homosapiens by mating with Earthians. The mating almost
> wiped out the Neanderthal race. Everything the ET's have done has been
> for our good.

     If I recall, isn't there a similar story of these *Earth-Angels*
in the book of Genesis ?  I'm not a Biblical scholar so I can't quote
the exact verse but I think that that was the reason for the biblical
flood. Angels came to earth and basically had sex with the human women
which created a "super race" but were viably corrupt (very destructive
and dominant of the weaker humans), thus, the flood was brought about
to purge the land of all *evil*.  Now, if this was true then, why
wouldn't it be true now ?  If Greys really are these angelic beings
I don't think you should assume their *good* intensions.

     This comment rests solely on the premuse that the Bible is true
and/or you believe it.



>     When the real aliens make themselves known and seen - the
> magnificent beings who manipulate the humanized robots, the grays - we
> will see an entirely different approach to the aliens. So pray and
> don't be afraid. You are an Astarian!! The only thing that can really
> save us and our planet is to have these advanced souls coming among
> us. So be grateful they are here. Be grateful for the abductions which
> result in a higher type of child. How wonderful it would be to have a
> few thousand souls like Nikola Tesla here to change the world.


     Given my above comment, I don't think I can share your optimism.


> Perhaps they could force our government to allow a new type of energy
> to manifest - solar energy for instance. Cars that operate on water
> instead of gasoline - so many things they can and will do. Pray for
> the day the real aliens make themselves known. It will be like a
> Second Coming - forerunners of the return of Jesus!


    Since YOU mentioned His name, I have to refute your Chronology.
My Bible says nothing of the sort with regards to these creatures and
their presence here on this earth.

    However, *I* have an interesting theory about their existence and
what the earthlings will attribute to them, but it only applies to
people who also share my religious viewpoints too ( I say this just so
you know the reasons why I say what I say)

    If you believe in the second comming of Christ. Then you have
probably at one time or another heard of the events that take place
at the point of His comming, i.e. In a twinkling of and eye, all who
believed in the Lord Jesus Christ will be taken up and they shall dwell
in the house ..... etc. It also goes on to say that after this happens
the people here on the earth still refuse to believe in God.


    O.K., so here's my theory (you may already see it comming), lets
say this day has come, and all over the world people just dissapeared
off the face of the earth (and I'm talking about a whole lot of people),
Just *Poof*, their gone.  What would be the only way you could explain
away what just happened and still not attribute it to the second comming
of Christ ?  Lets say shortly after this big event, all of a sudden
hundreds maybe even thousands of UFO's were being sighted all around the
the world. The obvious would have to be brought forth as the most credible
explaination without regard to God. It must have been those UFO's.

       Anyway, its just a theory, still hasn't been proven.....yet.
I just thought it might be interesting to share why I have an interest
in UFO's with the group. I realize that there are a few non believers
out there who realy detest discussions of this nature, but what the heck,
I read all yours, and find some of them very interesting.

Happy New Year !!

Kc
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE: ...UN guidelines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jan 92 15:45:45 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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>Date: 12-29-91  21:00
>From: Sandy Barbre

>   Then follows an approach to the International Astronomical Union, which
>will send out an official notification through the Central Bureau for
>Astronomical Telegrams.

>-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
>Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
>UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
>Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?

So... what's so secret and Byzantine?
I used to get the IAU Circulars mailed to me when I was a subscriber... I
still have have a stack of several hundred of them at home.

-Tom R.
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Grays are our Friends
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jan 92 20:58:27 GMT
Distribution: usa
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Lines: 8

Walter Pullen posts about the Grays and Astarian Earlyne...

Walter:  Do you name of the book that Earlyne refers to
in this article?  I have read several of her books...

If you can supply title, that would be great.

Kathy
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From: [e-mail] (Christoph Eckert)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.dreams,alt.magic,alt.magick,misc.misc
Subject: Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jan 92 13:44:16 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Christoph Eckert)
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
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X-OS: XENIX System V Release 2.3.3

hello people!

i'm looking for any kind of information about the so-called

    "Philadelphia Experiment",

an alleged secret experiment/project of the U.S.Navy that took place
in Philadelphia harbor in the mid 50ties and turned out to a public scandal
due to rather mysterious facts.

it's very difficult to find reliable information as this "event" lies
back almost 50 years now. in addition the whole thing was always very
controversial, although one thing's sure: there happened something really
strange. now i'm highly curious what i'll find out more about it :-)

so anyone who can help with infos (documents, articles, references,
explanations, addresses etc.) is invited to do so and send them via e-mail
To: [e-mail]

thanks a lot & best regards:
--
Chris Eckert, XGP Switzerland
Internet E-Mail: [e-mail], NIC: CE13
Phone: [phone] (voice)
@ Ixgate Switzerland (ixgch.imp.com) / XGP Switzerland
Slogan: "The only thing human beings master perfectly is KILLING." (F.Zappa)
& Remember: We have to pay for every single bit of mail data!
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From: [e-mail] (Mark Pratt)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jan 92 23:11:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Christoph Eckert) writes...
>hello people!
>
>i'm looking for any kind of information about the so-called
>
>    "Philadelphia Experiment",
>
>an alleged secret experiment/project of the U.S.Navy that took place
>in Philadelphia harbor in the mid 50ties and turned out to a public scandal
>due to rather mysterious facts.
>
>it's very difficult to find reliable information as this "event" lies
>back almost 50 years now. in addition the whole thing was always very
>controversial, although one thing's sure: there happened something really
>strange. now i'm highly curious what i'll find out more about it :-)
>
>so anyone who can help with infos (documents, articles, references,
>explanations, addresses etc.) is invited to do so and send them via e-mail

I think there is a movie about that ...check the video stores

Mark
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!dg-rtp!webo!dg-webo!tom
From: [e-mail] (Tom Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Grays are our FRIENDS !
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 00:08:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Administration)
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Lines: 114
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 6 Jan 92 18:03:29 GMT

>>>>> On 6 Jan 92 18:03:29 GMT, [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus) said:




Walter>     At one of my Fire Initiation ceremonies I told the
Walter> audience that the aliens are an Angelic race. But, they come
Walter> from different planets and we are their offspring. They came
Walter> to Earth many years ago and they created the Homosapiens by
Walter> mating with Earthians. The mating almost wiped out the
Walter> Neanderthal race. Everything the ET's have done has been for
Walter> our good.

Kevin>      If I recall, isn't there a similar story of these *Earth-Angels*
Kevin> in the book of Genesis ?  I'm not a Biblical scholar so I can't quote
Kevin> the exact verse but I think that that was the reason for the biblical
Kevin> flood. Angels came to earth and basically had sex with the human women
Kevin> which created a "super race" but were viably corrupt (very destructive
Kevin> and dominant of the weaker humans), thus, the flood was brought about
Kevin> to purge the land of all *evil*.  Now, if this was true then, why
Kevin> wouldn't it be true now ?  If Greys really are these angelic beings
Kevin> I don't think you should assume their *good* intensions.

Kevin>      This comment rests solely on the premuse that the Bible is true
Kevin> and/or you believe it.

Another interpretation can be gleaned (rather indirectly) from the
series of books by Ceanne DeRohan, the first of which is called the
Right Use of Will.  In these books, which are channeled, btw, it tells
of Angels gathering near Earth to see who they can take with them, BUT
it says that these angels are fallen angels of Lucifer.  It also goes
on to state lots of info around why what they do in the name of "Love"
is really nasty stuff, and that they aren't at all what they appear to
be on the surface (my summary without getting into all the details).
The basic gist is that they are very Spirit oriented, but have no
Will, and in fact, are out to control the Will polarity (ie emotions,
feelings, intuition, etc) by Spirit, where in fact the two polarities
should be equal.  It's very interesting reading!

Walter>     When the real aliens make themselves known and seen - the
Walter> magnificent beings who manipulate the humanized robots, the
Walter> grays - we will see an entirely different approach to the
Walter> aliens. So pray and don't be afraid. You are an Astarian!! The
Walter> only thing that can really save us and our planet is to have
Walter> these advanced souls coming among us. So be grateful they are
Walter> here. Be grateful for the abductions which result in a higher
Walter> type of child. How wonderful it would be to have a few
Walter> thousand souls like Nikola Tesla here to change the world.


Kevin>      Given my above comment, I don't think I can share your optimism.

Note the Will-less nature of these "cyborgs"!

Tesla's cool in my book, though!

Kevin>     Since YOU mentioned His name, I have to refute your
Kevin> Chronology.  My Bible says nothing of the sort with regards to
Kevin> these creatures and their presence here on this earth.

Kevin>     However, *I* have an interesting theory about their
Kevin> existence and what the earthlings will attribute to them, but
Kevin> it only applies to people who also share my religious
Kevin> viewpoints too ( I say this just so you know the reasons why I
Kevin> say what I say)

Kevin>     If you believe in the second comming of Christ. Then you
Kevin> have probably at one time or another heard of the events that
Kevin> take place at the point of His comming, i.e. In a twinkling of
Kevin> and eye, all who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ will be
Kevin> taken up and they shall dwell in the house ..... etc. It also
Kevin> goes on to say that after this happens the people here on the
Kevin> earth still refuse to believe in God.

Isn't the rapture (this disapearing of masses) actually only obliquely
mentioned in the bible?  I've always taken this as just someone's
optomistic interpretation of some vague biblical reference.  Correct
me if I'm wrong.

Kevin>     O.K., so here's my theory (you may already see it comming),
Kevin> lets say this day has come, and all over the world people just
Kevin> dissapeared off the face of the earth (and I'm talking about a
Kevin> whole lot of people), Just *Poof*, their gone.  What would be
Kevin> the only way you could explain away what just happened and
Kevin> still not attribute it to the second comming of Christ ?  Lets
Kevin> say shortly after this big event, all of a sudden hundreds
Kevin> maybe even thousands of UFO's were being sighted all around the
Kevin> the world. The obvious would have to be brought forth as the
Kevin> most credible explaination without regard to God. It must have
Kevin> been those UFO's.

Kevin>        Anyway, its just a theory, still hasn't been proven.....yet.
Kevin> I just thought it might be interesting to share why I have an interest
Kevin> in UFO's with the group. I realize that there are a few non believers
Kevin> out there who realy detest discussions of this nature, but what the heck,
Kevin> I read all yours, and find some of them very interesting.

Kevin> Happy New Year !!

Kevin> Kc

Actually, if such an event is coming to Earth (I don't rule anything
out, and in fact I think that we're in a very interesting time), and
IF God's hand is in it, and IF this is the time of the 2nd coming
(first for those in the Jewish faith), then wouldn't it make sense
that the BAD guys (ie Lucifer) would also be around for the show?  I
can tell you this:  If I see a Grey on some dark road some night, I
won't greet him/her/it as some saviour of humanity.  I'll be bookin'
outta there damn fast!

Anyway, I think that Spiritual/religious implications of alien
visitors is an interesting topic.

Tom
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jan 92 23:51:05 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 19

Bill Moore makes remark to me (Where have you been, lady?)

Where have you been, man?

The Masons responsible for JFK's death.  I rather doubt that.
Masonry is about soul evolution and "know Thy Self"...not
about wiping out people via murder.  I suggest you find
a few Masons and have some discussions with them....they
are quite wisdom filled beings if they are at Master level.

Where have I been?  Right here...in this world...and also out
of it.  :-)

How can you be so sure of who the conspirators were re: JFK's
death?

I always question people who are SO SURE of their views....

Kathy
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From: [e-mail] (Iain Jameson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INFO: How To Build a UFO Detector
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 01:30:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Iain Jameson)
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 In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott D. Young) writes:
>
>   BTW, why do UFO's have intense magnetic fields?  I must have missed that
>   part.
>

I remembver some years back the Astromonical Society of
South Australia asked the states No.1 "UFO expert" to
give a talk at our meeting, forget his name - Colin Norris?
Two things come out of that talk
1. The realisation that the guy was paranoid
and
2. He had no idea what he was talking about.

When asked "Why do car headlights bend in the presence
of UFO'S", his reply was the classic
"Every scientist worth his (this was 1978) weight in salt will
tell you a strong magnetic fleld bends light."
Well, were we stunned. In fact we were so shocked at this
statement that we did not even correct him.

So, now you know why UFO's have strong magnetic fields -
to get us to realise that our theories of electromagnetism
are wrong, even though experiments say otherwise.
Cluey people these aliens.

Iain
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From: [e-mail] (Greg Hackney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Grays are our FRIENDS !
Keywords: grays, aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jan 92 23:50:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Home
Lines: 19

[e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:

> ... spaceships in our skies....
> They are bringing about hybrid children for the purpose of creating a
> superior race to help save the planet.
> You are an Astarian!! The only thing that can really
> save us and our planet is to have these advanced souls coming among
> us. So be grateful they are here.

Isn't the logical place to put these "superior beings" in leadership
positions in religion, politics, and government? So where are they?
I haven't seen any super intelligence in those areas, have you? :-)

Meanwhile, I'd love to see a video of you when a grey popped one eye
around the corner of the bedroom doorway in the middle of the night
(to see if you expressed gratitude, or stark fear).

Really Walter... take it to the talk.bizarre newsgroup (and I'll
go back to sci.skeptic)... :-)
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From: [e-mail] (f.e.carey)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Philadelphia Experiment
Keywords: citation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 03:40:16 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 29


 >i'm looking for any kind of information about the so-called
 >
 >    "Philadelphia Experiment",
 >
 >  .... stuff deleted ...
 >
 >so anyone who can help with infos (documents, articles, references,
 >explanations, addresses etc.) is invited to do so and send them via e-mail
 >To: [e-mail]


The Philadelphia Experiment: Project Invisibility
William L. Moore and Charles Berlitz   Copyright 1979

A Fawcett Crest Book - Published by Ballantine Books
ISBN 0-449-21471-0


From the back cover:

Philadelphia Naval Shipyard - 1943 - a fully manned destroyer escort,
U.S.S. Eldridge, vanished into a green fog, within seconds appeared in
Norfolk, Va.  and then reappeared in Philadelphia.  All men aboard ship
who survived were discharged as mentally unfit, a scientific researcher
on the project met a mysterious death, connections with UFOs, more.


Frank Carey at Bell Labs        [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Major Havok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 08:48:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark Pratt) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Christoph Eckert) writes...
>>hello people!
>>
>>i'm looking for any kind of information about the so-called
>>
>>    "Philadelphia Experiment",
>>
>
>I think there is a movie about that ...check the video stores
>
>Mark

  The movie is fictional and has very little to do with the actual experiment.
I have been looking for information on the Philidelphia Experiment (a.k.a.
Project Rainbow), for quite some time and have found very little information.
The only information I have really been able to find about it is from a movie
called "The Bermuda Triangle". It's an old movie (late 60's or 70's) and
kind of corny (compared to what you might expect today), but if you can get
past the "corny-ness", then it poses a few interesting ideas. Also, I
understand that there is a book titled "The Philidelphia Experiment", but
I have been told that it is not very well done. I have never been able to find
the book form myself so I can't give you my opinion.
--
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Chris Wood                |  "If you can't convince them, confuse them." |
| [e-mail]  |                                   -unknown   |
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!dusty
From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,rec.arts.movies
Subject: JFK & PUBLIC OPINION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 10:10:36 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Organization: Abode Computer Services
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3787 alt.conspiracy:9954 sci.skeptic:19113 rec.arts.movies:51060

The latest news is a CNN/USA TODAY plll that shows that the Movie "JFK" may
have had an effect on the way people in this country feel about the
Assasination of President John F. Kennedy.   Before the movie opened, most
Americans were split about the opinion that JFK had died as a result of a
conspiracy.   The latest poll (on CNN today) shows:

                    *********************************



                             72 % of AMERICANS
                               feel that JFK
                              was murdered as
                          a result of conspiracy

                    *********************************




                                  ONLY
                                   11%
                             feel that Oswald
                              acted alone

                    **********************************



If nothing else, JFK is the most argued, most talked about movie since
who knows what.

This is good.  Because when we talk, we learn.  The SKEPTICS are begining to
get outnumbered.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!dusty
From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,rec.arts.movies,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: JFK's PROUTY DIES
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 10:22:11 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
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Xref: ns-mx alt.conspiracy:9955 sci.skeptic:19114 rec.arts.movies:51061 alt.alien.visitors:3788

I have just heard (on local talk radio station KFI- Los Angeles) that
Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty (who was part inspiration for "Mr. X.") and
a technical advisor for the Oliver Stone film "JFK," died suddenly a couple
of days after the film opened.

They did not say what the cause of death was.

L. Fletcher Prouty came to Stone and told him that Kennedy had been the victim
of a military-industrial-complex plot triggered by his plan to withdraw from
Vietnam.   Prouty came forth with a number of declassified documents to
buttress the claim.   Quite a few were TOP-SECRET National Security Action
Memorandums (NASMs).




Just thought you'd like to know.

--Dusty
in L.A.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ET to phone Home under new UN Guidelines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 14:58:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3

From: [e-mail] (Don Allen):

>Laugh if you will, but this is soon to be a reality:

>...Then follows an approach to the International Astronomical Union, which
>will send out an official notification through the Central Bureau for
>Astronomical Telegrams.

Your reporter's lack of knowledge of information processes in modern day
astronomy is showing.  IAU telegrams are meant for public dissemination.
Anybody with access to a university or major public library can get copies.
Besides, who's going to make sure all the clerical types have security
clearances?  But as you say, you just post 'em, not evaluate 'em...
--
              [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Peter R. Cook)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Grays are our FRIENDS !
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 15:39:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 15


    The Greys are out friends? If you consider a race that abducts
    people, including children, experiments with them, even using
    them for cross-breeding, friendly, then I'd hate to see your
    enemies.

+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Peter Cook                        Quoth the Raven, "Eat my
Digital Equipment Corporation                shorts, man!"
200 Forest street
Marlboro, MA. 01752        "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother,
508-467-6936            welcome to the 90's where the government's
Mystic Powers infoline:        your mother!" - Scatterbrain
508-562-9516
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From: [e-mail] (Alex Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,rec.arts.movies,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: JFK's PROUTY DIES
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 16:52:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
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Originator: matthews@ajsh
Nntp-Posting-Host: ajsh.colorado.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dusty Garza) writes:
>
>L. Fletcher Prouty came to Stone and told him that Kennedy had been the victim
>of a military-industrial-complex plot triggered by his plan to withdraw from
>Vietnam.

What is even more amusing is the wire service report in Boulder's
Knight-Ridder rag that characterizes Kennedy as "hawkish".  I have
always felt a strange kinship with the man who forced history's most
gripping nuclear standoff, during which I was born.  I don't think
the words "hawk" and "dove" really apply to this strategist/womanizer/
rhetorician/politician/veteran/martyr/leader/pawn.  Or is Knight-Ridder
also in on the conspiracy?  They could be pushing the
argument "he was a hawk, therefore no one wanted him killed,
therefore there was no conspiracy."  They have good proof -- just-released
documents showing that the Cuban missile crisis went on well into
November of '62 because Kennedy was still angry about Soviet bombers
in Cuba even after the missiles were disposed of.

Hmmmm?

--
-Alex Matthews ([e-mail], [e-mail])
DoD #0010
"Occasionally we may try to reroute you briefly onto a particularly
beautiful side road...." - Numerical Recipes
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!hal.com!news
From: [e-mail] (Doug Moran)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,rec.arts.movies
Subject: Re: JFK & PUBLIC OPINION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 18:28:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Doug Moran)
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.; Campbell, CA
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3792 alt.conspiracy:9967 sci.skeptic:19130 rec.arts.movies:51089
In-Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)

In article <[e-mail]>, dusty@abode (Dusty Garza) writes:
>The latest news is a CNN/USA TODAY plll that shows that the Movie "JFK" may
>have had an effect on the way people in this country feel about the
>Assasination of President John F. Kennedy.   Before the movie opened, most
>Americans were split about the opinion that JFK had died as a result of a
>conspiracy.   The latest poll (on CNN today) shows:
>
>                             72 % of AMERICANS
>                               feel that JFK
>                              was murdered as
>                          a result of conspiracy

Lincoln was elected with less than 50% of the vote. Reagan won by a
landslide in 1984.  Bush is currently our president.  Rutherford B.
Hayes got *fewer* votes than Samuel Tilden, but won the election
anyway.  David Duke garnered a large enough percentage of the votes
in Louisiana to be in the runoff election.  Percentage-wise, Nixon
and Kennedy got essentially the same amount of votes.

That a large percentage of Americans believes something doesn't mean
it's correct; it just means that a large percentage of Americans
believes it.  We're a very opinionated group of people.

And bear in mind always that 75% of all statistics are made up on
the spot.
--
      Doug Moran      |  They're divorced now but they still get
 {...}!hal.com!dougm  |  together three days a week to argue.  It's
    [e-mail]     |  strictly business.
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From: [e-mail] (Mitchell S Todd)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,rec.arts.movies
Subject: Re: JFK & PUBLIC OPINION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 18:12:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

(Dusty Garza) writes...


>                             72 % of AMERICANS
>                               feel that JFK
>                              was murdered as
>                          a result of conspiracy

>                                  ONLY
>                                   11%
>                             feel that Oswald
>                              acted alone

        [bit o' context removed by accident]

>This is good.  Because when we talk, we learn.  The SKEPTICS are begining to
>get outnumbered.


        Yeah, and 50 million Elvis fans can't be wrong
        either.....

                    ______
___________________/      \________________________________________________
\__               / mst4298\\\                                     _______/
  \__ Mitchell S  \ @zeus. ///  Thunder, Perfect Mind             ______////
    \__  Todd      \.tamu.///   All the usual, and even more   _______////
      \_____________\ edu///________________________________________////
         \\\\\\\\\\\\\  //////////////////////////////////////////////
                      \/\///
                         \/    Are you happy now, Clark?\
                                \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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From: [e-mail] (Rocky J Giovinazzo)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: JFK & PUBLIC OPINION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 20:11:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Doug Moran) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, dusty@abode (Dusty Garza) writes:

>And bear in mind always that 75% of all statistics are made up on
>the spot.

Including this one?  :-)

Rocky Giovinazzo
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re:  ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 19:05:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA
Lines: 51

/ hp-vcd:alt.alien.visitors / [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) /  3:51 pm  Jan  6, 1992 /


> a few Masons and have some discussions with them....they
> are quite wisdom filled beings if they are at Master level.

  I've met a few masons with filled wisdoms but never the other way
  around.  Just how many points do you have to score to reach the
  *master* level anyway ?

> I always question people who are SO SURE of their views....

  Exactly. Very well put ( you redheaded goddess you ).

Kathy
----------

     But again, what does this mason tangent have to do with UFO's ?
Obviously, a cord has been struck with you when a negative lite was
implied by the masons.  My first impression was that it was just an
attempt to make a little lite humor, maybe I was rong. Either way,...
try to relax a little more,.....here, try some of theeezzzz.

     Now, to continue with our original story......

     As we left our hero, he was enjoying a nice hearty cold-cut out
on the front porch, when all of a sudden his pet gerbal, Bob, came
running up onto the porch in a desperate frantic.

     Bob, what's gotten into you ? Whats rong ?
     Squeek squeek, gerbal gerbal squeek !!
     What ?!! You were down at the pond with dad and from out of know-
     where came these aliens from another planet !??
     Gerbal squeek gerbal squeek squeek !!
     And one of them kicked dad in the groin and threw him down the well !!?
     Squeek squeek squeek gerbal !!
     And he broke his leg and can't get out because the alien pulled the
     bucket up !!?
     Gerbal !!??
     Thats terrible !  We better go save him !!
     Gerbal squeek gerbal gerbal gerbal !!
     What, thats not all !!  You say that, as you were running away you
     heard one of the aliens say they had too hurry and get back to
     Arizona ??  For the annual mason convention ??!!!
     Gerbal !
     We're DOOOOOMMMMMMED !!!!!!


     Just teasing with you Kathy... <8-)

Kc
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From: [e-mail] (Gaurang Hirpara)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Grays are our Friends
Message-ID: <YdOWZ=[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 22:27:23 GMT
Organization: Junior, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 8


One would think that if the this alleged cross-breeding took place,
and there was sufficient dilution of the gene pool thereafter, that
the superbeings manifest would not have produced the peoples we
know historically. basically, at what point in time are you alleging
this cross breeding occured?

--dan
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!gtx!al
From: [e-mail] (Alan Filipski)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ET to phone Home under new UN Guidelines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 18:29:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Alan Filipski)
Organization: GTX Corporation, Phoenix
Lines: 32
Xref: ns-mx sci.astro:13871 sci.skeptic:19156 alt.alien.visitors:3797

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
#From The Daily Telegraph of London:
#   If signs of life on other planets are ever detected, the news will not
#reach the mass of mankind until a complicated process of verification and
#approval is thoroughly exhausted.  Under a set of guidelines drawn up by the
#world's scientists, the news must pass through a secret and Byzantine
#notification process before being announced by the United Nations.  The
#Declaration of Principles Concerning Activites Following the Detection of
#Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence was thrashed out by the International Academy
#of Astronautics in Buenos Aires.
#   The first thing the radio-astronomer must do is to record the alien
#signals, then contact other scientists worldwide to verify them.
#   Then follows an approach to the International Astronomical Union, which
#will send out an official notification through the Central Bureau for
#Astronomical Telegrams.
#   After that, the Secretary General of the United Nations, the Institute for
#Space Law, and the International Telecommunications Union Will also be told.
#The latter will ensure that the alien signal is cleared of all earthly radio
#traffic so it comes over loud and clear.  Only then will the rest of the
#human race be privy to the news that ET may, after all exist.

This sounds like a bureaucratic fantasy.  What stops the first
astronomer from holding a press conference or any of the "other
scientists worldwide" from telling their acquaintences? The bureaucracy
might provide "official verification", for what that's worth, but
certainly not "news" to the world.


  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 ( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA )
 ( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al         [phone] )
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Why would gov't hide info.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jan 92 00:45:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 78

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott A. Yanoff) writes:
>
>Why would the U.S. government hide info regarding UFOs from the public?
>
>What would they gain?
>
>Secondly, how would they hide this info, without people hearing the truth from
>other goverments around the world?
>
>--
>   !\   /\   _/\_  [e-mail]
>  _! ! !  ! !_  _!
> ! ! !_!_ ! !    !___    MILWAUKEE,
> ! ! !   !!_!    !   !_   WISCONSIN

On the other hand...why would the Govt hide the truth regarding CIA
activities in the Nugan Hand bank, or Tell Bo Gritz "there ain't no
MIA's in Laos/Cambodia", or October Surprise..why would the Justice
Dept impede the BCCI investigation for months..or which mechanic was
hired to kill Danny Cassolaro?

Why would they hide The Truth (tm) in who really killed JFK,RFK or MLK?

..what would they gain..

You have to look at motives here..

The Govt hasn't been _totally_ successful in hiding information from
the public on UFO's..you can find out but be prepared to do some
mighty deep digging. This includes slugging through much dis-info
calculated to lead you down dead-ins and some really outlandish
claims (ie..Bill Cooper, Krill Papers).

Part of the answer of the "why would they hide the info" has to do
with "national security"..if a craft can boldly show up at nuclear
facilities, "buzz" the area, and then haul butt..or if the craft have
followed the STS around in orbit..or the craft can out accelerate
our fastest jets (Belgium), do you *really* think they would tell
the public and admit they can't do anything about it?

Part of the answer is they just _might_ have made "secret" deals
with aliens (Holloman), or have captured ET's (Roswell).

Part of the answer is they may perceive that we "might freak out"..I
would have agreed on this at one time, but not so much nowadays.

However, let's suppose for the sake of argument that ET's do exist
and they land their craft outside a football stadium..They come
forward and present themselves. Admitedly, this is a simplistic
scenario..but let's go with it..what do you suppose the impact
would be on organized religion?

If the ET's come forth bearing gifts of *free* and unlimited
power sources that don't pollute the environment,etc..what impact
would this have upon a society that uses fossils fuels? How about
industries like auto manufacturing,appliances,utility companies?

The impact would be staggerring and possibly devastating to our
society financially. You ask a good question and one that goes
to the heart of the matter. We DO know from documents secured
under FOIA releases that the Govt (military) has had many reasons
to keep the matter under wraps and on more than one occasion has
denied any complicity in cover-ups..but which claims were later
proven inaccurate due to the testimony of witnessess who have come
forth.

I can recomend that you read - Above Top Secret by Timothy Good,
and UFO Crash at Roswell by Kevin D. Randle and Donald R. Schmitt
for starters and decide for yourself "what are they hiding".

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re: ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 92 23:56:14 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 43

Kevin Cyrus writes:  "you redheaded goddess you..."  and
"Just teasing you, Kathy..."

Kev:

Well, the way I see it, any man worth his salt should be
a good teaser.  And any woman worth her salt should
definitely be a better teaser than the man.  :-)

I don't know the answer to your question about points necessary
to become a master level Mason.  But I intuitively feel that
the slamming towards Masons comes from ignorant human beings
who have not done their homework.  Sort of like the people who
blast astrology or numerology without checking into it, researching
it, etc.

I am not sure if it all struck a raw chord in me..let's just
say that ignorance disturbs me.  And I see so much of it
in this world.  So why not take the time and bother to check
out things for accuracy?

Now as far as Arizona UFOs and UFOs all over the place..again
I do feel they are out there, and I don't feel a need to talk
about them over and over, or whether they were here, there,
or everywhere.  And the people who report them, I tend to
believe them, also.  Gullible?  Naive?  A tease?
Maybe all three.....!!!  :-)

For humour and jest, and plain old vitality and laughter
(some of you guys out there take yourselves too seriously, do
you know that?)

Lighten up, fellas!

Kathy

My dad's a UFO buffer
And I'm a UFO nuffer

:-)

(don't ask what nuffer means...I just used it because it rhymes
with buffer)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!wupost!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!dusty
From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: JFK & PUBLIC OPINION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 00:47:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Abode Computer Services
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Doug Moran) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, dusty@abode (Dusty Garza) writes:
>>The latest news is a CNN/USA TODAY plll that shows that the Movie "JFK" may
>>have had an effect on the way people in this country feel about the
>>Assasination of President John F. Kennedy.   Before the movie opened, most
>>Americans were split about the opinion that JFK had died as a result of a
>>conspiracy.   The latest poll (on CNN today) shows:
>>
>>                             72 % of AMERICANS
>>                               feel that JFK
>>                              was murdered as
>>                          a result of conspiracy
>
>Lincoln was elected with less than 50% of the vote. Reagan won by a
>landslide in 1984.  Bush is currently our president.  Rutherford B.
>Hayes got *fewer* votes than Samuel Tilden, but won the election
>anyway.  David Duke garnered a large enough percentage of the votes
>in Louisiana to be in the runoff election.  Percentage-wise, Nixon
>and Kennedy got essentially the same amount of votes.
>
>That a large percentage of Americans believes something doesn't mean
>it's correct; it just means that a large percentage of Americans
>believes it.  We're a very opinionated group of people.
>
>And bear in mind always that 75% of all statistics are made up on
>the spot.
>--
>      Doug Moran      |  They're divorced now but they still get
> {...}!hal.com!dougm  |  together three days a week to argue.  It's
>    [e-mail]     |  strictly business.


I guess this doesn't sit well with you, huh Doug??
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!wupost!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!dusty
From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: JFK & PUBLIC OPINION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 00:51:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Abode Computer Services
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mitchell S Todd) writes:
>(Dusty Garza) writes...
>
>
>>                             72 % of AMERICANS
>>                               feel that JFK
>>                              was murdered as
>>                          a result of conspiracy
>
>>                                  ONLY
>>                                   11%
>>                             feel that Oswald
>>                              acted alone
>
>        [bit o' context removed by accident]
>
>>This is good.  Because when we talk, we learn.  The SKEPTICS are begining to
>>get outnumbered.
>
>
>        Yeah, and 50 million Elvis fans can't be wrong
>        either.....
>
>                    ______
>___________________/      \________________________________________________
>\__               / mst4298\\\                                     _______/
>  \__ Mitchell S  \ @zeus. ///  Thunder, Perfect Mind             ______////
>    \__  Todd      \.tamu.///   All the usual, and even more   _______////
>      \_____________\ edu///________________________________________////
>         \\\\\\\\\\\\\  //////////////////////////////////////////////
>                      \/\///
>                         \/    Are you happy now, Clark?\
>                                \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


YET ANOTHER...
                    Fine example (by Mr. Todd) of avoiding the issue.
               He has learned well from President Bush, who a few days ago
               , in Australia, started talking about the ELVIS conspiracy
               when asked about "JFK."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ihz.compuserve.com!dzecchini
From: [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: JFK & PUBLIC OPINION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 07:26:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
Lines: 20

>                    Fine example (by Mr. Todd) of avoiding the issue.
>               He has learned well from President Bush, who a few days ago
>               , in Australia, started talking about the ELVIS conspiracy
>               when asked about "JFK."


    Oh, my GOD!!!  Did someone say Elvis is alive and living in
Australia?!?!?  And that President Bush has known about it all ALONG!!!
My GOD!  Shouldn't someone inform the papers?!?  Television?!?  IMAGINE it,
a secret government conspiracy meant to hide Elvis from his adoring public
in the far reaches of the land down under!!!

    My, my, my...just WHAT will happen next...<sigh>

Be seeing you...
--
         David "Maelstrom" Zecchini | "It may be better to be a live jackal
       [e-mail] | than a dead lion, but it is better still
 [e-mail] | to be a live lion.  And usually easier."
           [e-mail] | -Robert A. Heinlein
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: JFK & PUBLIC OPINION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 12:12:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 15

It is really too bad (if it is true) that Bush is making
jokes about an Elvis conspiracy when questioned about
the movie JFK.

Just goes to show you how so many people play games and
write it off as a joke.  Personally, I wonder what in the
world these men live with (who create wars, have power
in the govt., etc) as far as conscience....

In a way it makes me sad, in another way, I shudder....

Kathy


t
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: TOP GUN team looks for aliens OUT THERE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 00:22:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dusty Garza) writes:
>I just heard that Hollywood's top two (Don Simpson and Jerry Bruckheimer)
>producers- at least when it comes to clout, have quietly aquired the rights
>to the Howard Blum non-fiction book, "OUT THERE."  Not only that, but that
>they have been (just as quietly) under production with it for SUMMER '92
>release.  No word on who stars in it, but you can bet that whoever it is
>carries STAR STATUS.   These guys were recently courted by a number of
>studios and have ended up at the top of the heap in Hollywood.  They are known
>for their blockbuster action movies (TOP GUN, BEVERLY HILLS COP, & DAYS OF
>THUNDER to menton a few) and even turned down Eddie Murphy's offer to produce
>BEV HILLS COP III.   These guys have clout and guts.

This is extremely interesting!  The movie should do A LOT to make the
public aware of the UFO situation!

Unfortunately, while the book is an excellent introduction to things like
SETI, MJ-12, the Bennewitz affair, etc., I've heard that there hasn't been
a lot of luck in confirming any of Blum's *new* information.  So the movie
might wind up like "JFK" -- stimulating public discussion about various
theories, but having its *own* theory shot down by the media.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Re: ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 00:45:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>
>When I listen to UFO stories, accounts, I like to 'feel' a
>sense of creditability in the story teller...the mention
>of something as ridiculous as blood and death oaths by Masons
>really shoots down the creditability of the Montana poster
>(in my opinion..for me).

I didn't follow the last part of the article either.  But one of William
Poundstone's books ("The Big Secrets" or "More Big Secrets") says that
Masons receiving various degrees take oaths consenting to be killed in
various gruesome ways if they reveal secrets.  Of course I have no
idea whether this is true and whether it's ever been carried out.  And I
have no idea what it has to do with JFK, since he wasn't a Mason.

>Now is there any one out there who would like to speak up as to
>what exactly this poster from Montana is speaking out...and since
>he did relate it to JFK and Oswald, I am sure there are posters
>out there who have their own theories/ideas as tow hat *may*
>have happened.

I don't have any ideas on JFK right now, but the description of the
government closing off an area near where the UFO was sighted sounds an
awful lot like the rumors about underground alien bases.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ET to phone Home under new UN Guidelines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 00:49:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 23
Xref: ns-mx sci.astro:13883 sci.skeptic:19172 alt.alien.visitors:3806

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>Laugh if you will, but this is soon to be a reality:

I thought it was a reality for a few years.  Doesn't Blum say something
about it in "Out There"?

>-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
>Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
>UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"

I've heard the October 1992 date in a lot of places, but where did it come
from?

>Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?

I dunno.  This is a new one on me!

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Why would gov't hide info.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 01:08:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott A. Yanoff) writes:
>
>Why would the U.S. government hide info regarding UFOs from the public?

Most of the theories say that we're not ready to face the fact that aliens
are visiting this planet.  Either the culture shock would be too great, or
various religions wouldn't be able to cope with it, or alien technology
would destroy our economic system by making our technology obsolete.
(Personally, I'm getting sick of our present culture, and I wouldn't mind
seeing a couple of religions get lost either.  As for technology, we don't
need aliens.  There have been a lot of free energy inventions over the
years, and even an occasional claim for gravitational technology.)  And of
course there's the theory that the aliens are using us for food and genetic
experiments.

On a less sensational level, what if the government has proof that UFOs
exist, but hasn't been able to figure out basic things like how they work,
where they come from, or why they're here?  Would you expect the
all-powerful government to admit that something's going on that they don't
have any control over?  This is, possibly, a more plausible panic scenario
than my first paragraph.  (It all depends on how much the government really
knows, of course.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
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From: [e-mail] (Barry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 05:10:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Inquiring Mind  1 204 488-1607
Lines: 23

[e-mail] (Mark Pratt) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Christoph Eckert) writes..
> >i'm looking for any kind of information about the so-called
> >
> >    "Philadelphia Experiment",
> >
> >an alleged secret experiment/project of the U.S.Navy that took place
> >in Philadelphia harbor in the mid 50ties and turned out to a public scandal

----------------------- stuff deleted -------------------------------

> I think there is a movie about that ...check the video stores

You're right, there is a movie with this title.  It came out several years
ago (7 or 8).  I remember renting the video.  Has something to do with time
travel.  Sailors from the future travel back into the past or vice versa.
Anyone seen it recently??

        --Barry

[e-mail]
The Inquiring Mind BBS, Winnipeg, Manitoba  204 488-1607
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!unido!cat!incom!public!pfm!root
From: [e-mail] (Bernd Hennig at pfm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 01:30:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: PFM News & Mail RMT, Mainz, Germany
Lines: 13

[e-mail] (Christoph Eckert) writes:
>hello people!

>i'm looking for any kind of information about the so-called

>    "Philadelphia Experiment",

I only know the movie "Philadelphia Experminent" and the Sienece-Fiction
book (I don't know the author ....)

--
Bernd Hennig | PFM News & Mail | Eibenweg 4 | 6500 Mainz | [e-mail]
"...lasst den Vorhang brennen, LOESCHT MICH !"                            - ALF
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Elvis is ALIVE!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 14:45:04 GMT
Organization: Memphis State University
Lines: 12

///////////////////////////////News Flash/////////////////////////////

Elvis is alive and back in Memphis, TN!

   A reliable source spotted and talked with The King yesterday--less than a
block from the former (& to some present) superstar of rock&roll.  When
questioned, Mr. Presley said he just couldn't bear being in the tropics when
his birthday celebration was going on at Graceland.  The King said, "I just
couldn't stand being away from my little girl, Lisa Marie, so I put on my blue
suede shoes and scooted on up here to take care of business...baby!"

   If anyone hears more news from Elvis, please post a message!!!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!hartlemp
From: [e-mail] (Michael P. Hartley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 14:50:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bernd Hennig at pfm) writes:
>[e-mail] (Christoph Eckert) writes:
>>i'm looking for any kind of information about the so-called
>>    "Philadelphia Experiment",
>I only know the movie "Philadelphia Experminent" and the Sienece-Fiction
>book (I don't know the author ....)

   If I remember correctly (what I have heard), is that the Phily Experiment
was designed to cloak a ship at sea from radar.  Or was it a magnetic "sheild",
I can't remember which was from a more believable source.  Anyway, the
experiment worked.  Sort-of.  When they turned on the generators, the ship, I
beleive it was the Battleship Idaho, disapeared from the radar screens.  In fact
the entire ship vanished from visible sight.  A few minutes later, the ship reappeared, and they turned off the generators.  Then the ship, and the crew even
after they left the ship, continued to disappear and reappear at random
intervals for several years.
   An interesting sideline is that the Idaho currently is in mothballs, and it
never saw action in WWII. (I think I heard that somewhere.  This is all very
hush hush, so I am just repeating heavily biased rumors.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Roses are red, Violets are blue, I'm schizophrenic, so am I, and so am I"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael P. Hartley          *()------\-------\   |   Physicist by choice
[e-mail]        |       |   |   Chemist by accident
Purdue University            >|======/-------/   |   CS student by mistake
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!ames!apple!netcomsv!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: TOP GUN team looks for aliens OUT THERE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 17:43:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>
> (Blum's "Out There")
>Unfortunately, while the book is an excellent introduction to things like
>SETI, MJ-12, the Bennewitz affair, etc., I've heard that there hasn't been
>a lot of luck in confirming any of Blum's *new* information.  So the movie

Not only hasn't there been any "luck" in confirming Blum's supposedly
"new" information, but there's been a lot of "bad luck" in disconfirming
it. Like: the military officers supposedly the most involved in this
simply don't exist. And he mis-describes the Cheyenne Mtn facility
pretty fiercely, suggesting that MUCH of what he says is made up.
For more details, see the review by Philip J. Klass (yes, I know,
'boo hiss') in The Skeptical Inquirer a few issues back.
--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Simply follow nature, Rousseau declares. Sade, laughing,
        grimly agrees."          - Camille Paglia, "Sexual Personae"
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!garbo.ucc.umass.edu!hamp.hampshire.edu!tpappas
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: new
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 16:40:24 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Hampshire College
Lines: 8


    Does anyone on the net know what frequency SETI listens to.
I know that it is the FM broadcast band between 88 and 108 Mhz.
Please E'mail me any info you might have.

                    Thank You,

                    Tom Pappas
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!garbo.ucc.umass.edu!hamp.hampshire.edu!tpappas
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: SETI listening frequency?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 16:47:32 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Hampshire College
Lines: 3


 Sorry about that "new". The Subject shoul have been typed:
SETI listening frequency.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!darwin.sura.net!europa.asd.contel.com!uunet!infonode!case
From: [e-mail] (Bill Case)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs
Summary: Stone's JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 19:07:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>
> How can you be so sure of who the conspirators were re: JFK's
> death?
>
> I always question people who are SO SURE of their views....

I favor  the conspiracy theory that Oliver is being bankrolled by shadowy
figures with political motives. :-o

I heard that Scorcese is doing a docudrama on Stone, and it's really a
shocker (of course) :-) <--just in case.

"Controversial" is usually an ego trip.

BTW,  when they reopened the JFK investigation, did they try to explain the
single gun theory,  or did they find some rationalization for how is fired
that fast?  A fluke?

Bill "Can't sort the truth from the speculation in a darkened theatre" Case
...uunet!ingr!b11!casey!case    (UUCP)
ingr!b11!casey![e-mail] (ARPANET)
[e-mail]                (Internet)
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From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Elvis is ALIVE!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 19:41:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 34
Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:

>///////////////////////////////News Flash/////////////////////////////
>
>Elvis is alive and back in Memphis, TN!
>
>   A reliable source spotted and talked with The King yesterday--less than a
>block from the former (& to some present) superstar of rock&roll.  When
>questioned, Mr. Presley said he just couldn't bear being in the tropics when
>his birthday celebration was going on at Graceland.  The King said, "I just
>couldn't stand being away from my little girl, Lisa Marie, so I put on my blue
>suede shoes and scooted on up here to take care of business...baby!"
>
>   If anyone hears more news from Elvis, please post a message!!!
>
>
>
>

No!!!  You got it wrong.  Elvis is working at a fast-food store in Cleve-
land, Ohio.  I was driving up to the speaker to place my order and this
voice came over.  One which could not be mistaken.  After I gave him my
order he said, "Thank you very much (In Elvis Voice Tones).  When I went
up to pay for my order, there he was - Elvis.  He looked a little order
with gray blow-dryed hair and sagging jowels, but there is no mistake
that it was Elvis.

He even rendered a small portion of "Love Me Tender."  I asked him when
he was going to make the big comeback.  He said that in March he was
going to go back to Graceland and proclaim that he was alive.  At that,
he came me my "Happy Meal" for the kid and we left.  I'll never forget
it as long as I live.
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From: [e-mail] (Eric "JUICE" Fritzius)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 19:53:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Mississippi State University
Lines: 38

[e-mail] (Michael P. Hartley) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bernd Hennig at pfm) writes:
>>[e-mail] (Christoph Eckert) writes:
>>>i'm looking for any kind of information about the so-called
>>>    "Philadelphia Experiment",
>>I only know the movie "Philadelphia Experminent" and the Sienece-Fiction
>>book (I don't know the author ....)

>   If I remember correctly (what I have heard), is that the Phily Experiment
>was designed to cloak a ship at sea from radar.  Or was it a magnetic "sheild",
>I can't remember which was from a more believable source.  Anyway, the
>experiment worked.  Sort-of.  When they turned on the generators, the ship, I
>beleive it was the Battleship Idaho, disapeared from the radar screens.  In fact
>the entire ship vanished from visible sight.  A few minutes later, the ship reappeared, and they turned off the generators.  Then the ship, and the crew even
>after they left the ship, continued to disappear and reappear at random
>intervals for several years.
>   An interesting sideline is that the Idaho currently is in mothballs, and it
>never saw action in WWII. (I think I heard that somewhere.  This is all very
>hush hush, so I am just repeating heavily biased rumors.)



It wasn't the Idaho.  It was the USS Eldridge.

JSA

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Roses are red, Violets are blue, I'm schizophrenic, so am I, and so am I"
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Michael P. Hartley          *()------\-------\   |   Physicist by choice
>[e-mail]        |       |   |   Chemist by accident
>Purdue University            >|======/-------/   |   CS student by mistake
--
******************************************************************************
ERIC W. FRITZIUS (aka JUICE S. AARON)   |   The willow bends down
[e-mail]                     |   Touching the ground in new ways
                                        |   Plastic Bear Vomit.
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From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ET to phone Home under new UN Guidelines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 19:37:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.astro,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 44
Xref: ns-mx sci.astro:13891 sci.skeptic:19192 alt.alien.visitors:3818

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
|> >
|> >Laugh if you will, but this is soon to be a reality:
|>
|> I thought it was a reality for a few years.  Doesn't Blum say something
|> about it in "Out There"?
|>
|> >-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
|> >Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
|> >UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
|>
|> I've heard the October 1992 date in a lot of places, but where did it come
|> from?
|>


Columbus Day, October 12th(?) 1992 is when the big SETI projects are
supposed to come on line to try to commemorate the 500th anniversery
of Columbus discovering this new world.




|> >Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
|>
|> I dunno.  This is a new one on me!
|>

Me too. Don!?



|> --
|>  *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
|>  Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
|>  37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
|>  Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")

--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail] |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!atha!aunro!nstn.ns.ca!teach6
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,rec.arts.movies
Subject: Re: JFK & PUBLIC OPINION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 23:06:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NNTP Entity)
Organization: Parkview Education Centre, N.S. Canada
Lines: 31
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3819 alt.conspiracy:10070 sci.skeptic:19193 rec.arts.movies:51207

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Doug Moran) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, dusty@abode (Dusty Garza) writes:
>>The latest news is a CNN/USA TODAY plll that shows that the Movie "JFK" may
>>have had an effect on the way people in this country feel about the
>>Assasination of President John F. Kennedy.   Before the movie opened, most
>>Americans were split about the opinion that JFK had died as a result of a
>>conspiracy.   The latest poll (on CNN today) shows:
>>
>>                             72 % of AMERICANS
>>                               feel that JFK
>>                              was murdered as
>>                          a result of conspiracy

>Lincoln was elected with less than 50% of the vote. Reagan won by a
>landslide in 1984.  Bush is currently our president.  Rutherford B.
>Hayes got *fewer* votes than Samuel Tilden, but won the election
>anyway.  David Duke garnered a large enough percentage of the votes
>in Louisiana to be in the runoff election.  Percentage-wise, Nixon
>and Kennedy got essentially the same amount of votes.

>That a large percentage of Americans believes something doesn't mean
>it's correct; it just means that a large percentage of Americans
>believes it.  We're a very opinionated group of people.

>And bear in mind always that 75% of all statistics are made up on
>the spot.
>--
>      Doug Moran      |  They're divorced now but they still get
> {...}!hal.com!dougm  |  together three days a week to argue.  It's
>    [e-mail]     |  strictly business.
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Any UFO GIF's out there ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 19:27:33 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA
Lines: 14


     Greetings,

          I just got a new system w/ a huge color monitor. I was
wondering where I might get my hands on some *good* UFO gif's.  Can
anybody point me in the rite direction ?

Q: Is this a FAQ ? ( i b kinda nu )


Kc



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From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: TOP GUN team looks for aliens OUT THERE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 19:44:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 49


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dusty Garza) writes:
|> >I just heard that Hollywood's top two (Don Simpson and Jerry Bruckheimer)
|> >producers- at least when it comes to clout, have quietly aquired the rights
|> >to the Howard Blum non-fiction book, "OUT THERE."  Not only that, but that
|> >they have been (just as quietly) under production with it for SUMMER '92
|> >release.  No word on who stars in it, but you can bet that whoever it is
|> >carries STAR STATUS.   These guys were recently courted by a number of
|> >studios and have ended up at the top of the heap in Hollywood.  They are known
|> >for their blockbuster action movies (TOP GUN, BEVERLY HILLS COP, & DAYS OF
|> >THUNDER to menton a few) and even turned down Eddie Murphy's offer to produce
|> >BEV HILLS COP III.   These guys have clout and guts.
|>
|> This is extremely interesting!  The movie should do A LOT to make the
|> public aware of the UFO situation!
|>
|> Unfortunately, while the book is an excellent introduction to things like
|> SETI, MJ-12, the Bennewitz affair, etc., I've heard that there hasn't been
|> a lot of luck in confirming any of Blum's *new* information.  So the movie
|> might wind up like "JFK" -- stimulating public discussion about various
|> theories, but having its *own* theory shot down by the media.
|>
|> --
|>  *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
|>  Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
|>  37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
|>  Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")


In one part of "Out There" the UFO WOrking Group is looking for a place to
send a couple "spies". They dismissed Gulf Breeze because they had some
information indicating that some part of the US government was conducting tests
of some secret device(s). (I wish I had the darn book with me now ;-)

Has anyone heard anything else along these lines? Has anyone heard anything
else regarding Blum's credibility?



Thanks,
Leonard.


--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail] |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (Michael P. Hartley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 02:13:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Lines: 4

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric "JUICE" Fritzius) writes:
>It wasn't the Idaho.  It was the USS Eldridge.

   Thats right...  The Idaho was the primary observation ship.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!jwt!gary
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Sudden Deaths...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 07:39:29 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Waffle login)
Organization: The Matrix
Lines: 3

Let's reverse the situation...

        Gary Stollman
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 02:54:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) says:
>I didn't follow the last part of the article either.  But one of William
>Poundstone's books ("The Big Secrets" or "More Big Secrets") says that
>Masons receiving various degrees take oaths consenting to be killed in
>various gruesome ways if they reveal secrets.  Of course I have no
>idea whether this is true and whether it's ever been carried out.  And I
>have no idea what it has to do with JFK, since he wasn't a Mason.
>
I think that was the problem.  As I understand, the Mason's require that
any Presidential candidate be a 33rd level Mason in order to gain the
support of the Order.  I also read somewhere that the Mason's are sworn
to do all possible to get rid of any President who doesn't meet that
criteria.  I willtry to dig up the book where I found this.

George Newell
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!rpi!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ET to phone Home under new UN Guidelines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 05:25:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Hubble Space Telescope Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 33
Xref: ns-mx sci.astro:13899 sci.skeptic:19224 alt.alien.visitors:3825
Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Alan Filipski) writes:
[More or less accurate description for protocol following apparent success of
SETI deleted]

>This sounds like a bureaucratic fantasy.  What stops the first
>astronomer from holding a press conference or any of the "other
>scientists worldwide" from telling their acquaintences?

The same thing that should have prevented Pons and Fleischmann from holding
THEIR press conference:  Unwillingness to risk having his career ruined.  There
have been false alarms in the past:  Signals from "lost" space probes, pulsars,
etc.  Making a mistake is perfectly acceptable within the scientific community;
announcing the results such a mistake as if they were facts to the world at
large is a cardinal sin.

>The bureaucracy might provide "official verification", for what that's worth,
>but certainly not "news" to the world.

If a scientist discovers what he thinks is evidence of ETI and reports it
through proper channels, then if it's verified, he still gets full credit for
the discovery.  If it later turns out that, despite verification, it was a
false alarm, the blame gets spread out over everyone involved in the
verification.  If he DOESN'T go through channels, he might get the benefit of
being able to announce his "discovery" a few days earlier than if he had gone
through channels, but if he's mistaken, all the blame accrues to him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!Msu.oscs.montana.edu!icsic146
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ARIZONA UFO's/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 06:50:09 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Master)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Montana State University
Lines: 27


    HEY REDHEAD KAY......CAN YOU READ THIS?

    It's me the ORIGINAL poster....I have held off long enough to listen to
YOUR ignorant BULLSHIT...yeah, BULLSHIT!!!!
    What the hell you think you own this network...I see that you have a
post for almost everybody else's post.  YOu appear to me to either be suffering
from delusions of grandeur and schizophrenia or PMS.....
        Do my research?  My Grandfather went to the grave as a 33rd Degree
Mason  and my father is a Lodge Member...Jim Shaffer just told you, that there
are/were severe oaths taken by CERTAIN members at certain times as lodge
members.
    By the way, I would like to know how a female seems to know the
"intimacies" of lodge life....I'm not knocking Masons.....I'm for them
    But, you say you can be teased and like it...I was tired of the JFK
CRAP on the ALT.ALIEN.VISITORS net....did I miss something?  Is JFK an alien,
or was he killed in an alien plot?   I'd prefer a clean net on one subject.
If JFK is the thing why not start an ALT.JFK.PLOT and take this banter
elsewhere where it belongs?
    So, being tired of reading JFK crap, I teasingly through out my $.02
worth, and by the sign of the Ravens, look what I caught!
    At present, I am awaiting for the information many of you have
requested from as to dates and times of the appearance of the ARIZONA UFO'S
I hope that you realize it may be several weeks....newspaper morgues are not
known for their expediency in retrieving subjects when exact dates are not
known   As soon as I recieve them, I will post with date, publication, volume
and page number.                                   Shoz d'Jiji
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!Msu.oscs.montana.edu!icsic146
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ARIZONA UFO's/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 07:01:22 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Master)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Montana State University
Lines: 10


    In Jim Shaffer's posting, he asks what does being a Mason have to do
with JFK?
    Well Jim, read it again...I didn't say it did, and if there seemed to
be an inference to it, I'm sorry....I know that he was Catholic...that is what
I was getting at.  Johnson wasn't, and neither was tricky dickie....I was just
throsing out a different slant that I felt had been overlooked...and it seems,
that I'm right...guess that is why everybody seems confused...keep an open mind
when investigating....I feel oh, so char-broiled with the flambeaux!
                                                Shoz-d'Jiji
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From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: JFK & PUBLIC OPINION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 04:09:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Abode Computer Services
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini) writes:
>>                    Fine example (by Mr. Todd) of avoiding the issue.
>>               He has learned well from President Bush, who a few days ago
>>               , in Australia, started talking about the ELVIS conspiracy
>>               when asked about "JFK."
>
>
>    Oh, my GOD!!!  Did someone say Elvis is alive and living in
>Australia?!?!?  And that President Bush has known about it all ALONG!!!
>My GOD!  Shouldn't someone inform the papers?!?  Television?!?  IMAGINE it,
>a secret government conspiracy meant to hide Elvis from his adoring public
>in the far reaches of the land down under!!!
>
>    My, my, my...just WHAT will happen next...<sigh>
>
>Be seeing you...
>--
>         David "Maelstrom" Zecchini | "It may be better to be a live jackal
>       [e-mail] | than a dead lion, but it is better still
> [e-mail] | to be a live lion.  And usually easier."
>           [e-mail] | -Robert A. Heinlein


That's hillarious Dave.  Thanks for the chuckle!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!news.bbn.com!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Grays are our FRIENDS !
Keywords: grays, aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 08:05:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 71

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Greg Hackney) writes:
>[e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>> ... spaceships in our skies....
>> They are bringing about hybrid children for the purpose of creating a
>> superior race to help save the planet.
>> The only thing that can really
>> save us and our planet is to have these advanced souls coming among
>> us. So be grateful they are here.
>
>Isn't the logical place to put these "superior beings" in leadership
>positions in religion, politics, and government? So where are they?
>I haven't seen any super intelligence in those areas, have you? :-)

The "be grateful they are here" statement refers to the aliens, not
the hybrid children. From what I understand, the alien/human hybrids
looks a lot different than us (half way between us and a gray, or
something like that), so haven't been introduced on our planet yet.
Therefore, all the people currently in our government are still
Earthlings.

(However, there can still be aliens among us, either in the form of
Walk-ins or Crawl-ins, where the aliens incarnate in or inhabit a
human body, or else in some of the alien forms that look similar to
us, such as the Pleiadian groups. Actually, our governments, although
we have many past mistakes to overcome, aren't completely bad, and we
are beginning to slowly get our acts together.)

This reminds me about one of the few shows modern UFO shows that have
been on network TV in the past several months. I don't think this was
Unsolved Mysteries, but anyway the show covered several cases of UFO
sightings. In one case, there was a man and his son who "lost time".
Hypnosis revealed them meeting with some emotionless gray-like aliens
and some friendly "hybrid" aliens that looks half way between the true
aliens and man. The father/son actually felt at home with these guys
and felt tremendous grief when the time came for them to part.

Another related case refers to a UFO conference I was recently at. The
main speaker there was Lt. Col. Wendelle Stevens, author of the "UFO
Contact from the Pleiades" book (and BTW, I took my copy of his book
there and got him to autograph it - Don Showen, are you reading this?
- I mentioned your name, and he remembered you.) Anyway, one case he
described involved a group of different people in Puerto Rico being
simultaneously abducted and taken aboard a large spacecraft. The two
types of beings aboard were human-like people (who did the talking to
the group) and gray-like aliens (who did most of the other work).
Anyway, one of the human-like aliens noticed that the group seemed to
be very apprehensive of the gray-like aliens; so, in response one of
the human-aliens picked up one of the gray-like ones and put it on his
shoulders like a child, saying that there was nothing to fear from
these guys (and also makes them seem more cyborg like, as the Grays
were claimed to be in my original article).

>Meanwhile, I'd love to see a video of you when a grey popped one eye
>around the corner of the bedroom doorway in the middle of the night
>(to see if you expressed gratitude, or stark fear).

Like in the movie Communion? I remember a scene like the above in that
film. It *was* one of the more intense scenes, and I have reason to
believe that were I to see an alien being, I would probably at first
freak out and want to vamoose pronto, but after a bit I would go back
and say hi and ask them what they want. After all, it's rare that one
gets to have a conscious meeting with ET's :) Usually they just make
you unconscious for a while like they do with most abductions.

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|     Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     |     [e-mail]     |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 20:06:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 11

The best book on the subject I've heard of is "The Philadelphia Experiment"
by Charles Berlitz and William Moore.

Incidentally, you have the date wrong.  The experiment took place in 1943.
The information started to get out in the mid-50s, I think.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 20:09:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark Pratt) writes:
>
>I think there is a movie about that ...check the video stores

The movie was intended as fiction and it involves quite a bit more than the
original story (time travel, for instance.)  There *is* a man named Al
Bielek who says he experienced something similar to the movie version, but
he only remembered it *after* seeing the movie.  His credibility isn't
good, in my opinion.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Grays are our FRIENDS !
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 20:23:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 59

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>     At one of my Fire Initiation ceremonies I told the audience that
>the aliens are an Angelic race. But, they come from different planets
>and we are their offspring. They came to Earth many years ago and they
>created the Homosapiens by mating with Earthians. The mating almost
>wiped out the Neanderthal race. Everything the ET's have done has been
>for our good.

The part about creating humans is similar to the other accounts which say
the Grays are evil.  I've got to contest your statement that it's for our
own good.  Are you familiar with Zecharia Sitchin?  He theorises that
humans were created as slaves by the aliens which were the Sumerian gods.

>     The aliens called the "Grays" have frightened so many people.
>These Grays are humanized robots. The Master aliens have taken the
>robot and implanted enough intelligence and human parts into the brain
>and body of the robot that it has been partially humanized. They have
>programmed the robot to fly spaceships. Flying by remote control from
>the mother ship, they man the spaceships.

Again, this has come up on the other side of the argument too.

>     Some speakers keep telling people these Grays plan to come
>swarming in and enslave us. This simply isn't true. They've been
>flying spaceships in our skies since 1947. Couldn't they already have
>done it?

I agree with that part, for what it's worth.  But you should realize that
there are claims that they're taking over by infiltration rather than
military action.  You must admit it would be a lot more effective.

>thing. They are abducting some people, true. But they have a pure
>motive. They are taking the sperm of the Earthian male and the ovum of
>the female. They impregnate a female Earthian with the sperm of a male
>alien. Then in the midst of the pregnancy they remove the child from
>the uterus. I've written about this in one of my books. They are
>bringing about hybrid children for the purpose of creating a superior
>race to help save the planet. They want there to be born among us

How do you know the hybrids are to help *us* instead of *them*?  Besides,
where *are* they?  I haven't heard of any.

>don't be afraid. You are an Astarian!! The only thing that can really
>save us and our planet is to have these advanced souls coming among
>us. So be grateful they are here. Be grateful for the abductions which
>result in a higher type of child. How wonderful it would be to have a
>few thousand souls like Nikola Tesla here to change the world.

If you think that humans aren't already working on energy technology all by
themselves, you're wrong.  It's certainly been tough for most of them, but
I believe that sooner or later such things will be accepted.  There are
already attempts to get free energy out of more-or-less *accepted* physics.
Look at Puthoff's work with the zero-point energy, for example.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  INFO: How To Build a UFO Detector
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 21:00:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Iain Jameson) writes:
>When asked "Why do car headlights bend in the presence
>of UFO'S", his reply was the classic
>"Every scientist worth his (this was 1978) weight in salt will
>tell you a strong magnetic fleld bends light."

I hadn't heard that this happened.  (The headlights bending, that is.)  You
usually hear about cars completely failing.

>So, now you know why UFO's have strong magnetic fields -
>to get us to realise that our theories of electromagnetism
>are wrong, even though experiments say otherwise.
>Cluey people these aliens.

Al Bielek says the aliens had something to do with the Philadelphia
Experiment, I think...

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!network.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 12:32:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 33

isic146msu.oscos.montana.edu writes a string of angry
stuff towards me:

Montana:  Female PMS?  Sounds to me like you have a bad case
of male menopause.

Your grandfather was a 33 degree Mason?????  What happened
to *you*?

I recently found out that these "gruesome" oaths are quite
metaphoric and understanding is reached about them as one
advances (probably in revelation of his inner being).

Since I am female, I can never be a "mason"....but as far
as the inner school of wisdom, there is no distinction between
the sexes as far as equality is concerned, and as far as I
am concerned.

You have a lot of anger in your energy field...which is your
problem, not mine.

And no, I don't respond to *every* post.

And I wasn't the one who brought up the JFK issue.
It is my feeling that there *was* a conspiracy going, but I doubt
very very much that the Masons were behind it.

Kathy

The real war tody is within the human mind.  The real choice is
between allegiances being made there.  As individuals give themselves
up to, or cleanse themselves from, the base emotions, they carry on
*this* inner war.   --Paul Brunton
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!texsun!csccat!jack
From: [e-mail] (Jack Hudler)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: SETI listening frequency?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 10:27:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Computer Support Corporation,  Dallas,Texas
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
> Sorry about that "new". The Subject shoul have been typed:
>SETI listening frequency.

I think you should have saved this one for April 1st.
--
Jack         Computer Support Corporation        Dallas,Texas
Hudler        Internet: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!sdd.hp.com!network.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!att!cbnews!cbnewsl!fec
From: [e-mail] (f.e.carey)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Philadelphia Experiment
Keywords: Sanderson
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 16:21:08 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 9


Ivan Sanderson yalked about this incident in one of his books - probably
in the sixties.  I seem to recall that a marked up copy of the book was
received in the mail by the Defense Department and promptly classified
at a high level.
Does anybody remember anything like this?
I don't have the Sanderson book.

Frank Carey at Bell Labs            [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!d75!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!jlpicard
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Grays are our FRIENDS !
Keywords: grays, aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 92 14:36:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 14

...
> Meanwhile, I'd love to see a video of you when a grey popped one eye
> around the corner of the bedroom doorway in the middle of the night
> (to see if you expressed gratitude, or stark fear).

Myself, I feel that I would be infused with the spirit of charity
and giving, and would immediately present to Mr. Grey my gift of
15 rounds of 9mm ammo, one at a time. Here, catch!

Craig
-- "She keeps a Moet et Chandon   Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  In her pretty cabinet.              Internet: [e-mail] --
--  'Let them eat cake' she says      Austin: [e-mail] --
--  Just like Marie Antoinette".                    VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!dg-rtp!webo!dg-webo!psmith
From: [e-mail] (Peter Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 18:11:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Administration)
Distribution: alt
Organization: Data General Corporation, Westboro, MA
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christoph Eckert) writes:
>
>i'm looking for any kind of information about the so-called
>    "Philadelphia Experiment",

The Philidelphia Experiment story of a ship and its crew disappearing or
demterializing seems to trace back to one Carl Allen, a sailor stationed
at the Philadelphia Navy Yard during WWII and A.A. Merritt, who's
_American_Weekly_ dealt heavily in the paranormal.

Allen appears to have consolidated several rumor threads current at the
Navy Yard concerning the activities in a sealed-off, top secret area
where large, electricity-hungry machines were installed on one or more
ships and shore-side buildings and visited by various scientists and
engineers, including Albert Einstein.  The Navy's rumor-control cover
story was that they were experimenting with de-gaussing equipment to
make ships undetectable to magnetic mines.  Most rumors around the base
speculated that they were trying to make ships radar-proof, or even
invisible.  After the war, it was revealed that the installation was
part of the Manhattan Project, and contained cyclotrons and cloud
chambers.

Allen clung to the old rumors, however, and wove in the story of the
merchant ship Mohecan, which had a strange encounter with a "magnetic
cloud" in the Bermuda Triangle.  Merritt published an embellished
recounting of the Mohecan's bizzarre episode which Allen read and saw as
tied to the Navy Yard rumors and began writing to all sorts of
publications about "The Philadelphia Experiment", which since attained
urban-legend status akin to Flight 19.
---
Peter Smith ([e-mail]) Data General Corp, Westboro, MA
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Grays are our FRIENDS !
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 18:38:39 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 17


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Craig Becker) writes...
]....
]> Meanwhile, I'd love to see a video of you when a grey popped one eye
]> around the corner of the bedroom doorway in the middle of the night
]> (to see if you expressed gratitude, or stark fear).
]
]Myself, I feel that I would be infused with the spirit of charity
]and giving, and would immediately present to Mr. Grey my gift of
]15 rounds of 9mm ammo, one at a time. Here, catch!
]
]Craig

        For those  of  you  who  always wonder why the ET's have not made
        contact in a more open way and why they are very selective.

        Steve food_for_the_greys
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <1992Jan7.195409.25546@anasaz>
Date: 7 Jan 92 19:54:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
->Bill Moore makes remark to me (Where have you been, lady?)
->
->Where have you been, man?
->

... stuff deleted...

Sorry about that Kathy. I don't recalll exactly how the exchange went but
I think I was responding to your response to a posting that tied masons, the
JFK assasination and UFO's over Arizona all together. You questioned that
and I made some sarcastic remark about how it all made perfect sense.
Anyway, I'll be more careful about :-) in the future.

Besides, I've got something even more compelling to work on now.  Just
heard about it on the radio.  A psychic in London claims Robert Maxwell
didn't really kill himself and is alive and well.  She's trying to get
a message to him through Elvis.  The point is, obviously, that "Kennedy",
"Maxwell" and "Presley" all have EXACTLY 7 LETTERS and SO DOES "Arizona."
I think I'm on to something here!

--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!qmw-dcs!strachan
From: [e-mail] (Wallis-Towsey)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 21:13:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News System)
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London
Lines: 19
Nntp-Posting-Host: it064


 I'm sorry but I missed all the conversation about the
philadelphia experiment. I happen to be interested in this, so
any information on the subject would be much appreciated.
  Is the US Government still claiming the experiment didn't
happen?

  Please mail me  at [e-mail]

--
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\
|                                                                    |
|                      [e-mail]                        |
|                                                                    |
|        Just remember...                                            |
|                                                                    |
|  .. logic is just an organised way of going wrong with confidence. |
|                                                                    |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------/
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Johl)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Helen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 22:12:08 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Lines: 1

Helen, my cat, seems possessed at times.  Is it true that aliens landed on the earth in the 5th century BC and now live inside the bodies of all cats?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!qolight
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stone's "JFK"
Message-ID: <422800019@peg>
Date: 10 Jan 92 03:49:00 GMT
References: <20908924@[e-mail]>
Lines: 8
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail]:-2090892465:peg:422800019:000:275
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!qolight    Jan  9 23:49:00 1992


Dear Doogie.....

        If you will note in my previous posting a key word was
        "CIA Operatives"....clerks, pencil pushers, showcase
        females, or desk-jockies usually do not fall into the
        category of Operatives....'family loyalities are hard
        to rescind....Regards, Photon
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ARIZONA JFOs/JFK/Sacred Oaths/Power touching adversely...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 21:46:16 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 40

Recently "Montana" (I don't know your name) talked about
blood oaths and the Masons.  I share the following excerpt from
Paul Brunton's book: "Healing of the Self/The Negatives Vol 7
with those who may wish some deeper insight into the possible
reasoning behind keeping certain truths/knowings/revelations/
awarenesses revealed from the ignorant:

"Conscious of danger in its depth, I would not preach the Law
of Laws to men."  Thus Buddha told his disciples of one of the
reasons why he first refused to make public his discovery of
ultimate truth.  To whom was this danger?  If to himself, he was
above fear.  It was to his own generation.  He expressly declared,
on another occasion, "I have seen these things before, yet
I did not reveal them.  I might have revealed it, and others would
not have believed it.  Now, had they not believed me, it would
have been to their loss and sorrow."  Buddha meant--and his
meaning is further elucidated by other sayings--that those to whom
he offers mystical truth and reject it, will bring hurt upon
themselves by the very act of rejection.  Such truth is accompanied
by great power.  It cannot be separated from its sayer.  The sage
doubted is the truth doubted.  The sage rejected is the truth
rejected.  When this happens, the accompanying power--which would
have blessed and helped if believed in--still affects those
it touches but affects them adversely.  It is like electricity, which
is so useful a servant of man but so dangerous when not rightly
treated, which may save life or destroy it altogether.  The Prophet
of an age or a continent knows these facts, as the law that brings
him into birth knows it too.  Consequently he appears when
humanity has passed through such tremendous self-earned sufferings
that the risk involved in saying the Word and thus showing them
the only true way out, becomes an act of mercy by contrast."
(Paul Brunton)

---

Maybe this might also explain why there is a certainly strategy
in the unfoldment of the UFOS and alien beings..especially maybe
the enlightened, or lighted ones???

Kathy
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFO's/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 19:43:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 23

[e-mail] rants:
>
>     HEY REDHEAD KAY......CAN YOU READ THIS?
>
>     It's me the ORIGINAL poster....I have held off long enough to listen to
> YOUR ignorant BULLSHIT...yeah, BULLSHIT!!!!
>     What the hell you think you own this network...I see that you have a
> post for almost everybody else's post.  YOu appear to me to either be
suffering
> from delusions of grandeur and schizophrenia or PMS.....

*sigh* is it just me or does this kind of rhetoric seem highly
inappropriate for this newsgroup?

In the future, could you kindly avoid posting out and out insults
to alt.alien.visitors? Some of us find this form of verbal abuse
quite offensive.

Craig
-- "She keeps a Moet et Chandon   Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  In her pretty cabinet.              Internet: [e-mail] --
--  'Let them eat cake' she says      Austin: [e-mail] --
--  Just like Marie Antoinette".                    VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: SETI listening frequency
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 00:41:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>    Does anyone on the net know what frequency SETI listens to.
>I know that it is the FM broadcast band between 88 and 108 Mhz.
>Please E'mail me any info you might have.

According to my 3rd edition William Kaufman book "The Universe" that I
have for my Astronomy class I'm taking, the best place to find alien
signals with SETI will be in the 1000 to 10,000 Mhz range. This is
because there is relatively little cosmic noise in this band. (There
is at least 10 times as much interference in the neighboring orders of
magnitude from 100-1000 Mhz and from 10K-100K Mhz.) They also suggest
checking wavelengths of 21cm based on the radio photons emitted from
hydrogen atoms at this length.

:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:
1     Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     1     [e-mail]     1
:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:
1   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   1
:   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   :
1   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   1
:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:
Path: ns-mx!uunet!know!hri.com!ukma!rutgers!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 00:52:06 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 14

Craig Becker writes (to "Montana"):  "Could you kindly
avoid positing out & out insults to alt.alien.visitors.
Some of us find this form of verbal abuse quite offensive."

Craig:  Thanks.

BTW, I never go by the name Kay.  It's Kathy or Kathleen
(preferably Kathy).  :-)

Kathy

"If a negative emotion is strong enough, it maynot only colour
his reasoning faculty, but even preclude its use altogether."
   --Paul Brunton
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From: [e-mail] (Kelwyn Osborn, CSC Uni of Canterbury)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Helen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 00:49:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Craig Johl) writes:

> Helen, my cat, seems possessed at times.  Is it true that aliens landed on
>the earth in the 5th century BC and now live inside the bodies of all cats?

This has to be true!  They also have teleportation powers.  How many times do
you put the cat outside, lock the house and leave, come back later and the cat
is inside.  It happens all the time.

-kel
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!mucs!m1!stevew
From: [e-mail] (Steve Wallis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Grays are our FRIENDS !
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 14:05:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: alt
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>The "be grateful they are here" statement refers to the aliens, not
>the hybrid children. From what I understand, the alien/human hybrids
>looks a lot different than us (half way between us and a gray, or
>something like that), so haven't been introduced on our planet yet.
>Therefore, all the people currently in our government are still
>Earthlings.

You obviously haven't watched Spitting Image (which is hardly surprising
since its a British TV programme).  John Major definitely looks like an
alien/human hybrid to me...

Steve.

--
   /    / / \    / /              -------------------------
   \/\ /\ \/ \  / \\/      /      |     Steve Wallis:     |
     /   \ \/ \/   \\//\  /       |  [e-mail]  |
                    \/  \/        -------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Benno Eichmann)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 01:31:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Crash TimeSharing, El Cajon, CA
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) says:
>>I didn't follow the last part of the article either.  But one of William
>>Poundstone's books ("The Big Secrets" or "More Big Secrets") says that
>>Masons receiving various degrees take oaths consenting to be killed in
>>various gruesome ways if they reveal secrets.  Of course I have no
>>idea whether this is true and whether it's ever been carried out.  And I
>>have no idea what it has to do with JFK, since he wasn't a Mason.
>>
>I think that was the problem.  As I understand, the Mason's require that
>any Presidential candidate be a 33rd level Mason in order to gain the
>support of the Order.  I also read somewhere that the Mason's are sworn
>to do all possible to get rid of any President who doesn't meet that
>criteria.  I willtry to dig up the book where I found this.

>George Newell
>[e-mail]

Was Bush not initiated into the Order `49?  Chapter 322, at Yale?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!paxton
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO DETECTORS ?? GET SERIOUS !!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 14:17:41 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 15

How to build one:
simply take some of your favourite recreational drug and
AWWAYYYYYYYY you go!!!!!

Come on people, get a life !!!
If after so much time and effort has been spent detecting UFO's you
sad people are hardly likely to make one all by yourselves, are you!!!??
( NO FLAMES PLEAE, YOU KNOW I'M RIGHT !!!! )

So come on...lets talk about the POSSIBILITY of e.t.i. and the
PROBABILITY of them/it reaching earth, but BE SERIOUS!!

CHARLES S. PAXTON: OXFORD UNIV.
[e-mail]
"I'm the urban spaceman baby, I've got speed"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 18:45:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael P. Hartley) writes:
>beleive it was the Battleship Idaho, disapeared from the radar screens.  In fact
>the entire ship vanished from visible sight.  A few minutes later, the ship reappeared, and they turned off the generators.  Then the ship, and the crew even
>after they left the ship, continued to disappear and reappear at random
>intervals for several years.

In all the versions I've heard, except one mentioned briefly in Moore &
Berlitz's book, it was the destroyer escort "Eldridge".  (I can't remember
the one mentioned, but it definitely wasn't the "Idaho".  The story is that
someone said that the names of the Eldridge and the other ship were
switched afterwards to throw people off the trail.)

>   An interesting sideline is that the Idaho currently is in mothballs, and it
>never saw action in WWII. (I think I heard that somewhere.  This is all very
>hush hush, so I am just repeating heavily biased rumors.)

The Eldridge was sold to Greece (minus quite a bit of unidentified weight!)
where it was renamed the Leon.  I think it's still in service.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  TOP GUN team looks for aliens OUT THERE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 20:10:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Leonard Spani) writes:
>In one part of "Out There" the UFO WOrking Group is looking for a place to
>send a couple "spies". They dismissed Gulf Breeze because they had some
>information indicating that some part of the US government was conducting tests
>of some secret device(s). (I wish I had the darn book with me now ;-)
>
>Has anyone heard anything else along these lines? Has anyone heard anything
>else regarding Blum's credibility?

I heard it was a type of remote-piloted helicopter, but I can't remember
where I heard it.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Grays are our FRIENDS !
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 15:04:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 32

[e-mail] (Steve Timpson) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Craig Becker) writes...
> ]....
> ]> Meanwhile, I'd love to see a video of you when a grey popped one eye
> ]> around the corner of the bedroom doorway in the middle of the night
> ]> (to see if you expressed gratitude, or stark fear).
> ]
> ]Myself, I feel that I would be infused with the spirit of charity
> ]and giving, and would immediately present to Mr. Grey my gift of
> ]15 rounds of 9mm ammo, one at a time. Here, catch!
...
>         For those  of  you  who  always wonder why the ET's have not made
>         contact in a more open way and why they are very selective.
>
>         Steve food_for_the_greys

Hey, if the Greys or any other extraterrestrials (or humans, for
that matter) wanna come pay me a visit, they can do it during the
day while I'm awake. And if they'll do me the courtesy of knocking
before entering, I'd be more than glad to break out the beer and
Doritos.

If they're so rude or stupid that they can't make at least a small
attempt to honor our customs and courtesies, I'm not interested in
making contact with them anyway.

Craig
-- "She keeps a Moet et Chandon   Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  In her pretty cabinet.              Internet: [e-mail] --
--  'Let them eat cake' she says      Austin: [e-mail] --
--  Just like Marie Antoinette".                    VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ihz.compuserve.com!dzecchini
From: [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Helen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 18:28:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kelwyn Osborn, CSC Uni of Canterbury) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Craig Johl) writes:
>
>> Helen, my cat, seems possessed at times.  Is it true that aliens landed on
>>the earth in the 5th century BC and now live inside the bodies of all cats?
>
>This has to be true!  They also have teleportation powers.  How many times do
>you put the cat outside, lock the house and leave, come back later and the cat
>is inside.  It happens all the time.
>
>-kel


Oh, YEAH...

Try telling that one to Shroedinger's Cat. <g>

Be seeing you...
--
         David "Maelstrom" Zecchini | "It may be better to be a live jackal
       [e-mail] | than a dead lion, but it is better still
 [e-mail] | to be a live lion.  And usually easier."
           [e-mail] | -Robert A. Heinlein
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From: [e-mail] (RICHH)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick,alt.prose
Subject: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 21:03:47 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:19330 talk.bizarre:47720 alt.paranormal:4061 alt.alien.visitors:3856 talk.religion.newage:8471 alt.satanism:318 alt.magick:2342 alt.prose:1214
Nntp-Posting-Host: eniac.seas.upenn.edu


     I want answers this time!  ANSWERS!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     I used to be a non-believer.  Crystals, Ramtha, magic
pyramids, Nostradamus, crop circles, self-fellatio:  to all these
I would say, "Bah, bunk!."  But lately, irrefutable evidence of the
paranormal has been creeping into my daily life.  So attention all
ye naysayers:  read on and BELIEVE!!!!!!!!

1.  There was this song going through my head.  A song they never,
*ever* play anymore.  "Afternoon Delight" it was.  "--rubbing
sticks and stones together makes the sparks ignite, and the thought
of loving you is getting so exciting.  Skyrockets in flight..."
Well, anyhow, I flipped on the radio and THEY WERE PLAYING THAT
SONG!!

2.  I was trying to undo the twist tie from a bag of Wonder Bread.
I saw that I was twisting it the wrong way because it was getting
tighter.  So I stopped, and started twisting it the other way.  AND
IT KEPT GETTING TIGHTER!!!!

3.  So I'm walking across campus and I see someone I think I know.
Only as I get closer I see it really wasn't the person I thought it
was.  So I keep walking.  And then all of a sudden, out of the
blue, who do I see but THE AFOREMENTIONED FRIEND!!!
----------------------------------------------------
Coincidences, you say?  Easily-explained phenomena??  Yeah, and I
suppose bending keys is just a trick, too.
Right.

RICHH
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From: [e-mail] (gtenmc!gander)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFO's/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 18:57:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: GTE Telecom, Inc.
Lines: 26

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>    HEY REDHEAD KAY......CAN YOU READ THIS?

>    It's me the ORIGINAL poster....I have held off long enough to listen to
>YOUR ignorant BULLSHIT...yeah, BULLSHIT!!!!
>    What the hell you think you own this network...I see that you have a
>post for almost everybody else's post.  YOu appear to me to either be suffering
>from delusions of grandeur and schizophrenia or PMS.....
> blah, blah, blah...

What a genius this man is!  Not only is he an expert in whatever he talks
about, but he is a psychologist AND an MD all at the same time! And so
tolerant of other peoples' views.  What a wonderful guy, what a saint.
I know where I've seen him - in the movie "Dances With Wolves". He was the
wise indian chief who was so tolerant of other peoples' views.  he let
everyone speak, and no opinion was criticized even once!

Seriously, If only there were more like him on the net, we could go back
to being cavemen and clubbing each other to death, dragging women by
their hair and drooling uncontrolably.  You truly are a credit to montana,
and the world!

[no flames, please (what a foolish request!)]


Gary
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Elvis is ALIVE!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 19:57:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA
Lines: 22



     All this talk about Elvis being sighted all over the place is
getting a bit out of hand. One person says he's back in Graceland,
anther says he's in Cleveland. This is all hog wash - everybody knows
he's really in Vancouver Wa. <8-).


Kc
                  | So, you say this alien had a room at the      |
                  | Holliday Inn ?                                |
                  | I don't know Peter, It could have been a      |
                  | spaceship, made up to look like a room at the |
                  | Holiday Inn. I can't be sure, Peter.          |
                  | Hmmmm,...well thats interesting, well.....    |
                  | see, and thats the trouble with aliens - you  |
                  | just don't know... Sure, sometimes you meet a |
                  | nice one - starman,... ET, but most of the    |
                  | time they turn out to be just some big lizard.|
                  |                                               |
                                         Bill Murry, GBII

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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 22:29:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Hubble Space Telescope Wide Field/Planetary Camera
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Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (RICHH) writes:
>
>     I want answers this time!  ANSWERS!!

You got answers last time you posted this.  I'll repeat them here for your
convenience.

>1.  There was this song going through my head.  A song they never,
>*ever* play anymore.  "Afternoon Delight" it was.  "--rubbing
>sticks and stones together makes the sparks ignite, and the thought
>of loving you is getting so exciting.  Skyrockets in flight..."
>Well, anyhow, I flipped on the radio and THEY WERE PLAYING THAT
>SONG!!

It's frequently the case that when a radio station revives an oldie, they play
it more than once.  You may well have heard "Afternoon Delight" being played on
someone else's radio without consciously noticing it.  Later, you happened to
catch it being played again.  Same thing happened to me with "I Know a Place"
by Petula Clarke.  Not only that, it turned up on a juke box at my favorite bar
shortly thereafter.

>2.  I was trying to undo the twist tie from a bag of Wonder Bread.
>I saw that I was twisting it the wrong way because it was getting
>tighter.  So I stopped, and started twisting it the other way.  AND
>IT KEPT GETTING TIGHTER!!!!

Twist ties have a tendency to do this.  If you get a kink in the twisted part,
twisting in EITHER direction tightens them, until you untangle the kink.

>3.  So I'm walking across campus and I see someone I think I know.
>Only as I get closer I see it really wasn't the person I thought it
>was.  So I keep walking.  And then all of a sudden, out of the
>blue, who do I see but THE AFOREMENTIONED FRIEND!!!

If you mistook someone else for the party in question, chances are that it was
someplace where you coul expect to see the party in question.  Happens to me
all the time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!ames!agate!linus!linus!jon
From: [e-mail] (J. E. Shum)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 22:16:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Organization: The MITRE Corp. McLean Va.
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Originator: jon@cyclone
Nntp-Posting-Host: cyclone.mitre.org


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (RICHH) writes:
>      I want answers this time!  ANSWERS!!
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>      I used to be a non-believer.  Crystals, Ramtha, magic
> pyramids, Nostradamus, crop circles, self-fellatio:  to all these
> I would say, "Bah, bunk!."  But lately, irrefutable evidence of the
> paranormal has been creeping into my daily life.  So attention all
> ye naysayers:  read on and BELIEVE!!!!!!!!
>

----- DELETED ACOUNTS OF COINCIDENTAL OCCURANCES ----

> Coincidences, you say?  Easily-explained phenomena??  Yeah, and I
> suppose bending keys is just a trick, too.
> Right.
>
> RICHH

I suggest you check out "The Power of Coincidence" published by
Prometheus Books.  I'm sorry but I can't remember the author
right now.


--
If you have a hero, look again.  You have probably
  diminished yourself in some way. -Sheldon Kopp

email:  <[e-mail]>   snailmail:  J. E. Shum, USA, 20904-6188
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!unlinfo.unl.edu!news.unomaha.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: "UFO DETECTORS? GET SERIOUS"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 23:09:18 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines: 23
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11



The gentleman from Oxford says, and I quote:

  "If after so much time and effort has been spent detecting UFO's
   you sad people are hardly likely to make one all by yourselves,
   are you!!!??".

What the hell is THAT supposed to mean --- make a UFO, or make a UFO
detector?

If the gentleman feels he must berate others for following what he
believes to be intellectually profitless lines of thought (e.g.,
creating a UFO detector based on the speculation that UFOs are
electromagnetically powered), then he should (at the very least)
couch his own lines of thought in a halfway coherent manner, so
the rest of us could see his point...If, indeed, he is really
trying to make one and is not simply airing his tonsils to see
whom he can rile.

T.R. Stone
University of Nebraska-Omaha
Home of the Toughest Organic Chem Instructors in the Known Universe
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!netcomsv!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 92 00:20:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 67

OK, I went digging in my files, and uncovered an article from FATE magazine,
Oct. 1980 by Robert A. Goerman, called "Alias Carlos Allende". Summarizing
what it says:

"In 1955 a Washington, DC auto parts salesman named Morris K. Jessup, who
once did graduate work in astronomy at the University of Michigan, wrote
a book titled "The Case for the UFO" and embarked on a tour to promote it....

In 1956, "Jessup received a letter from one Carlos Miguel Allende .... (it)
scolded Jessup for suggesting continued research into UFT (Unified Field
Theory). Allende claimed that in October 1943 the United States navy had
used Einstein's theories in an experiment that not only rendered a destroyer
totally invisible but also caused it to be teleported from the Philadelphia
dock to the Norfolk News-Portsmouth area and back again in a matter of
minutes. The experiment succeeded but it left side effects so horrendous
that the navy shut down the project immediately.....

(in a later letter) "Allende, his name now anglicized to Carl M. Allen,
could recall no exact dates, either for the experiment or for news accounts;
nor could he remember the names of the crew members or anything else
that mattered...."

Later, someone at the Office of Naval research in Washington turned up a
copy of Jessup's UFO book that had been "annotated", apparently by three
different persons, "Mr. A", "Mr. B", and "Jemi". "The writers made little
effort to conceal their contempt for mere human beings. Jessup
immediately recognized the handwriting, with its bizarre spelling,
capitalization and punctuation, as that of his mysterious correspondant
Carl(os) Allen(de)... the three writers continually referred to that
secret 1943 naval experiment."

"On April 20, 1959, Jessup committed suicide."

Late in the summer of 1969, the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization
(APRO) wrote that Allen(de) "had dropped into its Tucson, Ariz. office
and confessed the whole thing was a hoax." But Allen(de) later
apparently recanted this confession.

Allen's letters carried the return address of a house in New Kensington,
PA, the author's home town, so he investigated.

"I learned the whereabouts of all three of Allen(de)'s brothers." He also
located Carl's father, turned out to be his neighbor. Goerman was given
full access to papers that the family had. He concludes, "Carlos loves
to play games with those foolish enough to play audience... Carl is
described as a 'master leg-puller'. Once he purportedly feigned a heart
attack while working ... ". In a letter to his parents, Carl admits
annotating Jessup's book, by himself.

"In his letters to Jessup, Carl does not mention the name or number
of his experimental ship. In Moore and Berlitz' book he states, "It
was the DE-173."

"It is clear that the legend of Carl Allen/Carlos Allende is mostly
fiction. If someone were to write a book telling the *real* story,
its title might be 'The Philadelphia Hoax: Project Gullibility."



--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Simply follow nature, Rousseau declares. Sade, laughing,
        grimly agrees."          - Camille Paglia, "Sexual Personae"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!apple!netcomsv!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment
Keywords: Sanderson
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 92 00:28:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (f.e.carey) writes:
>
>Ivan Sanderson yalked about this incident in one of his books - probably
>in the sixties.  I seem to recall that a marked up copy of the book was
>received in the mail by the Defense Department and promptly classified
>at a high level.
>Does anybody remember anything like this?

Yes, this "Carlos Allende" character (a.k.a. Carl Allen) marked up a
copy of a wild UFO book by Morris K. Jessup, as if by three separate
extraterrestrials. It had comments like, "these puny earthlings are
getting too close to the secret of Unified Fields!", and other such
drivel. If I understand correctly, there was a corporation, probably a
defense contractor, called Varo, that for reasons I cannot fathom
printed up copies of the annotated book, which came to be known
as "the VARO Edition". I don't think that the thing was ever really
"classified", but *who knows* what the Pentagon might do when
somebody sends them something like that? In any case, for years
the late Gray Barker was selling "the Varo edition" at some
ridiculously high price (something like $75), hinting that it
contains great unearthly wisdom. Caveat emptor.


--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Simply follow nature, Rousseau declares. Sade, laughing,
        grimly agrees."          - Camille Paglia, "Sexual Personae"
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re^3: Firsthand account
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 92 00:50:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Distribution: na
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (jcj) writes:
>While they're hanging out, ask them why they use something as primitive as
>needles for their sampling and implants when they have a metallurgy and
>propulsion system beyond our understanding of physical laws.

That's easy.  It's the same question as: how can we send people to the moon
and yet fail to make a good enough car to sell even to Americans (never mind
to Japanese).
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Any UFO GIF's out there ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 92 21:47:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 50

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus) writes:
>
>     Greetings,
>
>          I just got a new system w/ a huge color monitor. I was
>wondering where I might get my hands on some *good* UFO gif's.  Can
>anybody point me in the rite direction ?
>
>Q: Is this a FAQ ? ( i b kinda nu )
>
>
>Kc
>
I have from time to posted gif's in this newsgroup and may put some
more up in the next few days. I try and keep them small so as to not
offend the ever present and watchful net.thinks.he's.god.anal.retentive
types. I used to but do NOT get the alt.bin* pictures.misc newsgroup
anymore.

A FAQ??! Sheeeeeeeet..I wouldn't hold my breath..ain't one gonna get
done unless poor ole' me works on it..the rest of this newsgroup
is pretty LAME when it comes to initiative..everyone likes to read
and offer up their opinions freely but not when it comes to actually
_doing_ something :_]

heheh...by the way..I'm working on a combination book and video FAQ
for this group. Maybe some one would work on Q&A modules like:


1)Roswell
2)Area 51 and Bob Lazar
3)Dulce and underground bases
4)Crop circles
5)Mailing lists and magazines
6)"O.H. Krll",John Grace,John Lear,Bill Moore and Bill Cooper
7.____________________________
8.____________________________
9.____________________________
10. __________________________

Etc....

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 04:06:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>How can you be so sure of who the conspirators were re: JFK's
>death?
>
>I always question people who are SO SURE of their views....
>
>Kathy
>

We may never know the identity of the actual shooters in the JFK
assasination. We do know a large body of information that points
to the FBI's part in the coverup,the CIA (aka as The Mafia),and
various other people lurking in the shadows.

Something you might find very interesting are 2 articles in the
misc.activist.progressive newsgroup called simply "Current Events"
in regard to this. Add to this DiNardo's posting that Jim Burnes
forwarded email in an article entitled "Are American P.O.W.'s About To Be Put To Death?" in part VIII. After reading them very soberly, I would
list them in "Don's OUTRAGE of the month" category. :-<

Don



--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.bizarre
Subject: OBSERVATION !
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 92 02:27:49 GMT
Followup-To: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors
Organization: A room filled with typography (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3867 talk.bizarre:47729

Alt.alien.visitors is the newsgroup with the higest proportion
of subject lines WITH ALL CAPITALS AND OFTEN EXCLAMATION
POINTS WITH A SPACE BEFORE THEM !

    We all know that these are
                TWO OF BIFF'S ENDEARING QUIRKS !!

Ergo, Biff's new secret identity (he's incognito, hiding from
the net.cops) is an alt.alien.visitors poster.

                            -- K !!!


--
..................    ...................................................
James "Kibo" Parry    271 Dartmouth St #3D, Boston MA 02116 [phone]
[e-mail]    Independent graphic designer and typeface designer.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!hubcap!opusc!usceast!patterso
From: [e-mail] (Mitchell Patterson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick
Subject: Re: RICHH: THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 23:55:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Lines: 15
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[e-mail] (RICHH) writes:

>     I want answers this time!  ANSWERS!!

Glad to be of service.

>Well, anyhow, I flipped on the radio and THEY WERE PLAYING THAT
>SONG!!

Get those fillings checked, boy -- YOU'RE A CIA LOVE DROID!
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        "Hey! You in the clown suit! Drop the gun!" -- Officer Bob in
                BOZO MADRID IV: BIG SHOES AND HOT LEAD
Mitch Patterson - eXpert eXplorer project - [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFO's/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 20:03:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>       But, you say you can be teased and like it...I was tired of the JFK
>CRAP on the ALT.ALIEN.VISITORS net....did I miss something?  Is JFK an alien,
>or was he killed in an alien plot?   I'd prefer a clean net on one subject.
>If JFK is the thing why not start an ALT.JFK.PLOT and take this banter
>elsewhere where it belongs?

At many sites there's a group called "alt.conspiracy" which is where the
JFK stuff belongs, unless of course someone *does* want to give it its own
group.

Unfortunately, the UFOlogist Bill Cooper has claimed that JFK was killed
(by his own driver!) to keep him from revealing the government's
involvement with aliens.  I don't know how many people take him seriously
any more, but that's how the subject usually comes up here.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 92 20:43:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (f.e.carey) writes:
>
>Ivan Sanderson yalked about this incident in one of his books - probably
>in the sixties.  I seem to recall that a marked up copy of the book was
>received in the mail by the Defense Department and promptly classified
>at a high level.

Sanderson did talk about it, but the book that Allende marked up and mailed
to the Office of Naval Research was Jessup's first book, "The Case For The
UFO".  The ONR didn't do anything with it *officially* as far as I know,
but several individuals in that office made a couple dozen copies of the
book.  I don't know who they gave all the copies to.  Jessup got at least
one, and he annotated the annotations.  He gave this copy to someone known
to Sanderson (possibly Sanderson himself) with instructions to keep it
secret.  I don't know if anyone knows what happened to it when Sanderson
died, if in fact Sanderson is the one who had it.  Copies of Allende's
annotations, made from one of the extremely rare ONR copies, used to be
available from one UFOlogical publisher, but I don't know if they still
are.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!garbo.ucc.umass.edu!risky.ecs.umass.edu!giovin
From: [e-mail] (Rocky J Giovinazzo)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 92 05:27:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:19364 alt.paranormal:4077 alt.alien.visitors:3871 talk.religion.newage:8480 alt.satanism:325 alt.magick:2347

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (RICHH) writes:

>>     I want answers this time!  ANSWERS!!

>You got answers last time you posted this.  I'll repeat them here for your
>convenience.

>>1.  There was this song going through my head.  A song they never,
>>*ever* play anymore.  "Afternoon Delight" it was.  "--rubbing

[more "phenomena" along with follow-up explanations deleted]

Gee... I thought this was a joke.  RICHH is serious?

Rocky Giovinazzo
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!ogicse!clark!barry
From: [e-mail] (Barry Lieberman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,rec.arts.movies
Subject: Re: JFK & PUBLIC OPINION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 92 09:07:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Clark College, Vancouver, Wa.  USA
Lines: 30
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3872 alt.conspiracy:10212 sci.skeptic:19365 rec.arts.movies:51510

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Doug Moran) writes:
>Lincoln was elected with less than 50% of the vote. Reagan won by a
>landslide in 1984.  Bush is currently our president.  Rutherford B.
I do remember this election when people were saying that he (Reagan) won
by a landslide.  What I am pretty sure that actually happened was that he
won by a landslide when counting the Electoral Vote, but the Popular Vote
was something like 65% to 35% in favor of Reagan over Mondale.  And yet,
only about 40% of the poeple that could have voted may have actually
went out and voted.  What would have happened had a possible 60% or 75%
of the voting public actually went out and voted in November of 1984?

>Hayes got *fewer* votes than Samuel Tilden, but won the election
>anyway.  David Duke garnered a large enough percentage of the votes
>in Louisiana to be in the runoff election.  Percentage-wise, Nixon
>and Kennedy got essentially the same amount of votes.
>
>That a large percentage of Americans believes something doesn't mean
>it's correct; it just means that a large percentage of Americans
>believes it.  We're a very opinionated group of people.
>
>And bear in mind always that 75% of all statistics are made up on
>the spot.
>      Doug Moran      |  They're divorced now but they still get
> {...}!hal.com!dougm  |  together three days a week to argue.  It's
>    [e-mail]     |  strictly business.
--
[e-mail]   'Bread and Circuses', or voting for one's own self-interest,
     or           is the cancer of democracy.
uunet!clark!barry          Jubal Harshaw - To Sail Beyond the Sunset
                                   Robert A. Heinlein
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!tcdcs!maths.tcd.ie!bosullvn
From: [e-mail] (Bryan Neil O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick
Subject: Re: RICHH: THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 92 18:25:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
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Organisation: Faulty Logic & Incomplete Proof Society

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (RICHH) writes:


>     I want answers this time!  ANSWERS!!
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>     I used to be a non-believer.  Crystals, Ramtha, magic
>pyramids, Nostradamus, crop circles, self-fellatio:  to all these
>I would say, "Bah, bunk!."  But lately, irrefutable evidence of the
>paranormal has been creeping into my daily life.  So attention all
>ye naysayers:  read on and BELIEVE!!!!!!!!

Hah! Do your worst!

>1.  There was this song going through my head.  A song they never,
>*ever* play anymore.  "Afternoon Delight" it was.  "--rubbing
>sticks and stones together makes the sparks ignite, and the thought
>of loving you is getting so exciting.  Skyrockets in flight..."
>Well, anyhow, I flipped on the radio and THEY WERE PLAYING THAT
>SONG!!

Obviously, you were subconciously influencing the DJ on that radio
station if such a thing happened. That can only mean one thing: IT'S ALL
TRUE! OmiGod!

>2.  I was trying to undo the twist tie from a bag of Wonder Bread.
>I saw that I was twisting it the wrong way because it was getting
>tighter.  So I stopped, and started twisting it the other way.  AND
>IT KEPT GETTING TIGHTER!!!!

Silly, they're _supposed_ to work like that. It's the same idea as
behind those plastic medicine bottles that are specially made so that
only kids can open them. This is normal.

>3.  So I'm walking across campus and I see someone I think I know.
>Only as I get closer I see it really wasn't the person I thought it
>was.  So I keep walking.  And then all of a sudden, out of the
>blue, who do I see but THE AFOREMENTIONED FRIEND!!!

There's only one explanation for this, and that is that your friend is
out to get you, as are all of the people at your campus who are in the
pay of Them. Your friend was shadowing you to see what you were doing,
and that person you thought was your friend probably goes through your
trash to see what you do, and that's only when that person is finished
bugging your room and all the other places you frequent.

Sheesh, these things are _so_ easily explained when you look at them in
a consistent fashion.

    -- Bryan

--
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Ben, _The Second Law_  | This mind intentionally left blank.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!tcdcs!maths.tcd.ie!bosullvn
From: [e-mail] (Bryan Neil O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick
Subject: Re: RICHH: THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 92 18:26:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
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Nntp-Posting-Host: salmon
Organisation: Faulty Logic & Incomplete Proof Society

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (J. E. Shum) writes:

>I suggest you check out "The Power of Coincidence" published by
>Prometheus Books.  I'm sorry but I can't remember the author
>right now.

Nyaah, you're probably working for Them too. I'll just _bet_ my life.

    -- Bryan

--
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Ben, _The Second Law_  | This mind intentionally left blank.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!nstar!sharkey!umich!csd475b!newsserv!doering
From: [e-mail] (Larry Doering)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 92 08:46:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Environmental Research Institute of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan
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In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 10 Jan 92 22:16:29 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (J. E. Shum) writes:

   In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (RICHH) writes:
   >      I want answers this time!  ANSWERS!!
   > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   >      I used to be a non-believer.  Crystals, Ramtha, magic
   > pyramids, Nostradamus, crop circles, self-fellatio:  to all these
   > I would say, "Bah, bunk!."  But lately, irrefutable evidence of the
   > paranormal has been creeping into my daily life.  So attention all
   > ye naysayers:  read on and BELIEVE!!!!!!!!
   >

   ----- DELETED ACOUNTS OF COINCIDENTAL OCCURANCES ----

   > Coincidences, you say?  Easily-explained phenomena??  Yeah, and I
   > suppose bending keys is just a trick, too.
   > Right.
   >
   > RICHH

   I suggest you check out "The Power of Coincidence" published by
   Prometheus Books.  I'm sorry but I can't remember the author
   right now.

Coincidence?  Hah.  Remember that Radio Church of God business, RICHH?
Ramtha and the crop circles are only the TIP of the ICEBERG.

No, don't be afraid.  Be very afraid.

ljd
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!inqmind!turtle
From: [e-mail] (Barry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: PLANETS DISCOVERED!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 92 05:42:05 GMT
Organization: The Inquiring Mind  1 204 488-1607
Lines: 8

With all the *noise* present on this group, did we all forget about the
purported discovery of the existence of planets in another solar system
outside of our own???  Anyone have the real poop on this?

        --Barry

[e-mail]
The Inquiring Mind BBS, Winnipeg, Manitoba  204 488-1607
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!drk20509
From: [e-mail] (deadwolfkeiner)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,alt.magick,alt.conspiracy,alt.bizarre
Subject: Re: RICHH: THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 92 23:35:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
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[e-mail] (Bryan Neil O'Sullivan) writes:
>There's only one explanation for this, and that is that your friend is
>out to get you, as are all of the people at your campus who are in the
>pay of Them. Your friend was shadowing you to see what you were doing,
>and that person you thought was your friend probably goes through your
>trash to see what you do, and that's only when that person is finished
>bugging your room and all the other places you frequent.


    Yes richh, i too used to find life confusing. Coincidences,
unexplanable flukes of statitics, a life full of ironic events, my
life read(s) like a novel. In science, though, you generate fables and
go with the one that happens to best fit the data. So i made stories until
i found one that accounted for all of the data. You see, i know that you
and everyone are all part of an experiment. Scientists wanted to know what
would happen if they exposed a person to a life full of peculiar events.
So they hired all of you extras to make it seem as if this was a real life,
etc.
    Note1 : the only prove is that sometimes when i am watching you
guys and you dont know it is that i have seen you guys take off your faces.
    Note2 : i thank whoever came up with the idea of .conspiracy. I can
really associate with the feelings.
    Note3 : no im not paranoid. well, not any more than everyone else.
i mean, everyones a little paranoid. Right ? Well aren't they ?

                        !help stamp out reality!

                             deadwolfkeiner
                           [e-mail]
             University of Illinois @ Cham/bana, Illinois

                      (A Meta-Theoretical Odinist)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!porthos.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,rec.arts.movies
Subject: Re: JFK & PUBLIC OPINION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 06:41:09 GMT
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    I do remember this election when people were saying that he
    (Reagan) won by a landslide.  What I am pretty sure that
    actually happened was that he won by a landslide when counting
    the Electoral Vote, but the Popular Vote was something like
    65% to 35% in favor of Reagan over Mondale.

... I know this is base revisionism on my part, but that *is* a
landslide, whether you like it or not.  Some quick facts: Reagon won
in 49 states, that is he had a majority in 49 states (Mondale won
Minn. and DC); his popular-vote margin is second only to Nixon's in
1972; his percentage-of-vote is the higest ever: beating Harding
(1920), Roosevelt (1936), Johnson (1964), and Nixon (1972).  If
Reagan's victory wasn't a landslide, I guess there hasn't ever been
one...  [source: The excellent "Presidental Campaigns", by Paul
Boller.]

    And yet, only about 40% of the poeple that could have voted
    may have actually went out and voted.  What would have
    happened had a possible 60% or 75% of the voting public
    actually went out and voted in November of 1984?

... sorry, but this is a pointless attempt at revisionism.  If they
didn't care to vote, then you cannot count them either way (I looked
it up).  He won, whether you and I like it or not.

Charles
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Helen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 09:34:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 12

>Is it true that aliens landed on the earth in the 5th century BC and now live
>inside the bodies of all cats?

It is interesting you should ask that at this time.  I recently finished listening
to one of the Pleiadian tapes by Barbra Marciniak.  They said something interesting
about cats.  They teach that the whole universe contributed DNA in the creation of
earth. And that the particular ets that created cats, watch us through the cats, from
their system.

Don Showen

Remember Don't be driving a car when teleporting.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick,alt.prose
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 10:02:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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RICHH says
>I want answers this time!  ANSWERS!!

Don't let the skeptics get to you.  You create your own reality moment by moment.
And it is up to you to establish your own trust in spirit.  Spirit is always there
and assists you in getting exactly what you create.  I think it is great that you
noticed.   Now build on that and test spirit more and more.  And if and when you
create a negative reality ask yourself why you created it and you WILL get an answer
The main thing is to always act as if you create whatever happens in your universe,
then you will start noticing how powerful of a reality creator you are. But it is
best to keep it to yourself.  In another thread someone asked for examples of realities
anyone has created.  I went through my list of incredible miracles I have created.
Which was btw a great exercise. But I realized that if I posted it many would say it was
just coincidence.  So fine the reality I create for myself will not be recognized by the
consensus, so what.  I am to busy creating bigger and better realities to care about
what the consensus thinks. I know I create my own reality and when I think of something
I want the universe expands to make room for it.  Early in my bootcamp of reality
creating I noticed that what I wanted would show up but I would go unconscious and not
receive it.  I soon broke myself of that dumb pattern, at least mostly.  Although I still
notice a reality I want slip by because of some silly thought like I don't deserve it.

Don Showen

Remember: Do not drive a car while teleporting.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!darcy
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO DETECTORS ?? GET SERIOUS !!
Message-ID: <422800020@peg>
Date: 12 Jan 92 15:30:00 GMT
References: <1427212943@[e-mail].>
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Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail].:1427212943:peg:422800020:000:1361
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!darcy    Jan 12 11:30:00 1992


Charles,

Don't underestimate the power of the individual or the greater power
of a group of dedicated people to create new devices or even complete
new technologies.

Think about the development of such things as Apple computers in a
garage, the development of the airplane, Ralph Sarich's orbital engine,
Vc,}{Ken Dollar's Noble Gas Engine, Stan Meyer's WaterFuel Cell and many
many more inventions that were conceived and brought to fruition outside
mainstream science/business/government R&D programs.

I'm not being naive when I say that it strikes me as being unwise to
say that something is  impossible without having categoric proof that
this is so.

In stating that certain people cannot possibly develop a device for
detecting UFOs, you would need to absolutely prove that the possibility
of the existence of eti (and associated UFOs) was nil. If you accept
the possibility, you would then need to have sufficient information on
all subscribers to be able to demonstrate their collective and individual
scientific incompetence. Or show why such a device was impossible.

It is my belief that there are sufficient people involved in this conference
with the appropriate abilities to design and build a device for detecting
UFOs. Their greatest challenge would probably be to define the most likely
unique characteristics to enable detection.

D'Arcy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Three star tells all
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 18:15:00 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 75

Three star tells all..........

  While I was in Phoenix Arizona, at the Alternate Alien and New Age
convention, I met Tim, (Mr.. UFO Beckley) the author of the UFO Magazine,
called UFO UNIVERSE. He seems like a very nice person, and I enjoy reading his
magazine.
  One of the articles in his Oct-Nov 1991 issue of his magazine, had to do
with an unidentified 3 star general. Here are some of the points he made; In
regards to the book, (The Roswell Incident) I was given some articles to look
at, and was asked to participate in the "AWARENESS PROGRAM", which is a means
of disseminating alien contact to the public. Although I had turned this down,
I later was shown some articles, a tape and still photographs. In these I saw
the alien craft, the frozen alien bodies, (from the Roswell site) and the live
alien which is a guest of the US Government.
  There have been several UFO crashes over the years. The aliens really have
no "invasion" planned for this planet. They have visited on and off here, for
thousands of years.
  Our US guest is over 300 years old. The aliens use about 55% of their brain
capacity,or ability; they do have DNA. The alien which is a guest of the US
Government,is 5"3 tall, weighs 96 lbs., has a large head (hairless) and large
slanted eyes. Some of the aliens abilities include moderate telepathy and
telekinesis.
  Cattle, as well as humans have been used in alien and US research for
various biological applications. Most humans are not hurt in the research and
experimentation. Some however have died due to complications and downright
carelessness.
  Several cross breed young have been born to both human females and alien
females. We humans are fully biological with most visiting aliens. Some we are
not.(more than one type or species has visited our planet)
  The US and Britain have made a secret treaty agreement, with the aliens, in
exchange for technology, and so-called "recon" missions, during times of human
conflict. Aliens agree to stay out of human wars, and not to interfere with
society. Also, there are special "teams" which are designated to, eradicate,
discredit, harass and trump-up charges to control those humans which
experience contacts or visitations from aliens, including also those who make
verifiable sightings.
  The alien crafts have been more-or-less copied by top scientific experts,
and are functional. The Awareness Program (mentioned before) was designed to
inform the public gradually, in a systematic, logical way. This is a joint
governmental-and-alien program. It is coupled with the increased alien-human
abductions and contacts. If done correctly there will be little or no panic or
resistance. The worlds governments will retain control, avoiding chaos.
  In some of the reports it was noted that our children were mentioned as some
of the cargo on the alien space crafts. There are over a million missing
children every year in the US alone. The aliens take about 2,200 a year from
the US and other countries combined. The rest of the children are due to
mankinds Darkside.
  The children are used in several ways; Biological, to educate and return;
Experimentation, disease study, the same as adults.
  Implants are being used on the humans taken aboard the alien crafts and
returned. Some of these implants are microscopic in size,(and smaller) which
influence the growth function and learning capabilities of the individuals.

  The A.P. (Awareness Program) calls for the funding of movies, television
series and specials, and books. These will be about friendly alien contacts.
 There are disks, triangles and oblong-shaped craft. They range from 30 ft,
for the smaller recon disc, to over 730 ft, for the larger mother disc,(or
flying saucers,if you will...) The triangle shaped craft are 210 ft. in
diameter. The oblong shaped craft is the really big one of the 3. The only one
ever found by the military was in the late 60's; it measured 1,100 ft. long
with a circumference of 310 ft. There is some noise made, however, all craft
are almost totally silent.

        In closing, these are my words; (John Winston)  "These people which
were picked up at the Roswell are not my first choice of space peoples to
cooperate with. Ike turned down my friend, Valient Thor, from Venus, so I
guess I will have to work with the space peoples our government has chosen."
  As the uneducated person who cussed all the time was sent to England to be
educated and saw a group of bow-legged cowboys for the first time, I'll leave
you with this saying; "Low and behold what fools are these who wear their legs
in parentheses."

this is being posted by Don Showen for John Winston. I am not Don. Don is not
me.

Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: A Tale of Two Whales
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 18:19:08 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 58


 SUBJECT:  A TALE OF TWO WHALES ............

In the winter issue of UFO Magazine, I found some information that comes from
an unidentified space entity (seems like everyone wants to remain unidentified
now) One of the subjects covered  was killer whales. I've been a skin diver
before and most people know that the dolphin will not hurt a person swimming.
As for the killer whale and  white shark it is quite a different story. This
information given, is according to the space person;   A few years back the
were a pair of Orcas, (killer whales) the female had gone to the beach to die,
while the male stayed in shallow water to wait..  A man came along and
attempted to get the female turned around and back into deep waters, but she
died anyway. The male orca became grief stricken, staying in the shallow
water.  The man then made a fence around the  male orca and got in beside him
and pushed food into it's mouth.  After quite a while, the orca did finally
get better. The man removed the fence when he saw  this had attracted other
humans, and let the orca go free.   This orca communicated with the other
orcas and now are aware of the good thing the human did. From here on out we
are off of the orcas menu.    It has been recommended that we turn loose all
killer whales, and dolphins after no more than three years, and we will no
longer have to capture them. Incidentally whales didn't evolve on earth . And
if you are awed by the gap in the human evolutionary history, you will find
even larger a gap in theirs. Killer whales and dolphins navigate by echo
location , like highly developed sonar. Sound waves are sent out and the
returning echoes are interpreted to produce and incredibly detailed three-
dimensional picture. By vocally mimicking the sound of the returning echoes,
these mammals can communicate pictures back and forth, like verbal television,
complete with dialog . When you enter the water with a killer whale, you won't
have to open your mouth to have your teeth examined. . . The orcas sonar
vision sees beyond the surface, so that it can see the remains of your meal,
just as easily as it can see your fingernails. you can't hide something from a
killer whale just by putting it behind your back !! It can see into you
through your closed fist. The orcas can pinpoint a tumor, exactly, wherever it
is in your body; it can swim around you, and can see it from every possible
angle. It can see your circulatory system, in detail, as well as spot blood
clots and aneurysms. Because it can sense differences in pressure within the
body, it could so also diagnose glaucoma, appendicitis, or inflamed tonsils.
Establishing communication with the orcas will greatly advance all medicine, (
evolved to that point) tremendously; not only because they already possess
incredible diagnostic abilities, but also a sophisticated medical knowledge
that is marine based and hence  totally different from human pharmacology.
Now I will give you some information from Earth Conventional Science; From the
OCT. 15th 1991 issue, dolphins are mentioned. Dr. Samuel Dreiden, President of
Stanford medical institute, says this; "We've known for a long time that
dolphins can sense when a human body is suffering from some ailment or
injury." This group has already enrolled a number of dolphins.      Dr.
Dreiden sees a time when one can go in to swim for an hour or so, then after
you come out, they will communicate your medical problem to a human physician
who would treat you. . . Now, these are my words; "Dolphins have been known to
cure tumors in humans, cause barren women to conceive, help handicapped
children to overcome depression,and they are definitely our friends, if we
would deal friendly with them.

I'll leave you with this saying;  "The first art of being a parent consists in
sleeping when the baby isn't  looking.

This is being posted by Don Showen for John Winston. I am not Don, Don is not
me.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Men in Black
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 18:16:22 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 40

SUBJECT:  MEN IN BLACK . . .

   In the past , a certain number of people  often come around , they ask
people who see space crafts all sorts of questions, then after they  get the
information they would threaten them with everything in the book , if they
didn t shut up about the sighting. They were called "THE MEN IN BLACK"
because they wore black suits and drove black cars.  My teacher once told me
not to attack them because they would just do away with  me.  He said that my
elder  brothers would take care of them.  Due to the fact that  the
information is coming out about them now, it seems that it should be  O.K. for
me to repeat the information, so here goes;
   They are from the Sirius star system. Although  most of the "good"  type
beings are from  that system, such as Kadar,  they refer to the men in black's
planet as a rather , unsightly planet;;  and from their frame of reference,
they do not claim them to be their own, but they must acknowledge that they
are, even within their dimension, located within our system.  They do have the
ability to change alter their appearances, some-what,.
    Our U.S. government is now cooperating with the Sirians; and the question
was asked,  what is the power that the entire government has to go along with
them? They have weapon sources, (I must circumspect...) that are believed by
the powers on this planet, to be  absolutely dominating. In other words, the
government believes they are looking down the barrel  of a very big gun. The
Sirians are in the second dimension soon to go into the third.  We are in the
third, soon to go into the fourth. The sirians are trying to prevent us from
going into the fourth dimension.
   The negative Sirians are involved with these cattle mutilations because of
their desire create a species that can perpetuate itself in the harshest of
conditions.
   The people from Zeta Reticuli aren't doing the mutilations, but the
"primitive" Zeta reticulans, which are from (what we would consider) to be
from the the past, (please don't ask me to explain! J.W) are helping the
Sirians.
   One of the beings that was being interviewed while he was asleep is called
B'zal. You talk about a tough dude. . . He would make the worst person on
earth look like Mr. Rogers.

   I'll leave you with this saying; A political expert is one who tells you
what will happen tomorrow, then tells you why it didn t.
   This is being posted for Don Showen for John Winston. I am not Don. Don is
not me.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 18:47:13 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 88
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3885 talk.religion.newage:8491 sci.skeptic:19414

Since this book is not going to be seen in any Christian owned book stores I
have decided to post this information on the net.  Although I am sure the
Christian minds will snap shut like a bear trap.  This book will shed a lot of
light to those who have been negatively influenced by religion.  As well as
showing why this planet has not gone very far under the reptilian gods of
religion.  Oh, btw the Vatican? knows all about this.  They assinated a pope
who was going to spill the beans.
Don Showen

Flying Serpents And Dragons

The Story of Mankind's Reptilian Past

The evidence that we are the children of Ancient Astronauts and Serpent-Gods

WERE ADAM AND EVE HUMAN?

The Old Testament account of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is an
abbreviated version of what actually happened. The real story has been changed
through a long tradition of selection and revision. The ancient Scriptures
which were ignored give us a different story.

For example, according to the Haggadah, the source of Jewish legend and oral
tradition, the following happened after they ate of the forbidden fruit:

The first result was that Adam and Eve became naked. Before, their bodies had
been overlaid with a horny skin, and enveloped with the cloud of glory. No
sooner had they violated the (command given them than the cloud of glory and
the horny in dropped from them, and they stood there in their nakedness and
ashamed.

The Gnostics who were expelled from the Church by the early Christians and
their writings expunged have their version of the same incident:

Now Eve believed the words of the serpent. She looked at the tree. She took
some of its fruit and ate, and she gave to her husand also, and he ate too.
Then their mind opened. For when they ate, the light of knowledge shone for
them; they knew they were naked with regard to knowledge. When they saw their
makers, they loathed them since they were beastly forms. They understood very
much.

It thus appears that if Man was created in the image of God, there can, only
be one conclusion - Adam and his God were reptilian  forms!

World-wide legends refer to giant flying lizards and dragons which came to
this planet and founded the ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia, Egypt,
India, and China. Who were these alien reptilian creatures?

FLYING SERPENTS AND DRAGONS provides the answers and solves many of the
mysteries of ancient history, such as:

  What is the real meaning of the "missing link?"   Where was the ancient
paradise land of Dilmun located?   What was the role of the gigantic stone
platform at Baalbek, in Lebanon?   What were the "crystals" dragons supposedly
fought over?   What actually where the ancient "boats of heaven" of Egypt and
the "sky chariots" of the Bible?   How did the ancients communicate with each
other?   What is the origin of the legend of the Phoenix Bird?

FLYING SERPENTS AND DRAGONS also solves many of the puzzles of the Old
Testament such as:   Why was Noah so angry when seen naked by his sons?   What
was really meant by the "weakness of the flesh" and the "badge of priesthood?"
  Why did man lose immortality in the Garden of Eden?   What was the real
nature of the horrible crime of Cain against Abel?   Who were the Nefilim who
descended from heaven and mated with human women?   When was the Deluge and
its real cause?   Why did the serpent get a bum rap in history?   Who
destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and why?   What was the real shape of the ark of
Noah?   Who were the warrior class of giants or Rephaim of ancient Palestine?
  Who really was Moses and where was Mt. Sinai located?
 This is a first-class detective story. A truly original work  of scholarly
research. It deals a shattering blow to all our preconceived notions about our
past and origins.

ISBN 0-9626016-0-8  15.95

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Mr. Boulay has devoted a lifetime to solving the  puzzles of ancient history..
A cryptologist by  profession, he retired from he U.S. Government where  he
served in various analyti al capacities for thirty  years. This book is the
culmination of a dozen years  of research.


Additional copies of this book  may be ordered from:

GALAXY BOOKS P.O. Box 8542 Clearwater, FL 34,18

Please remit $15.95 plus $2.00 for postage  and handling. For US customer
only. Foreign  orders please write for costs.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Helen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 19:39:01 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 51

Don Showen writes (in regard to Marciniak's Pleiadean channelings)
that the ets that created cats "watch us through the cats in
this sytem."

Hmmmm...interesting.  Brings to mind several things.  They say
cats are very "psychic" and as pets, oftentimes can be 'psychic
protectors'.  A lady friend of mine has a cat, and many times
when I would go to her house for a meditation/healing group, her
cat would be sitting on my lap or on others' during the meditation.
Animals can be very good "medicine", also (according to Sun Bear).

My dog is the same way...always wants to get in the center of
the meditation circle when I have this at my place.

Also, I remember reading that birds, animals, etc. are emanantions
of divine power.

Also, I think of the Egyptian worship of cats, and the goddess Bastet.
According to my Egyptian symbology book: "With the Middle Kingdom
the cat cappeared as Bastet's sacred animal and after the New
Kingdom she was depicted with the cat's head.  The goddess'
character became more anf more friendly."

Speaking of friendly, that reminds me of a neighbor's cat...that tried
EXCEEDINGLY HARD to get into my home for a loooooong time...even
when my dog stood ferociously eager to jump at it behind my open
door, and the cat actually did run into my home one time (if
remember serves me correctly).  She had no fear of my dog whatsoever.
I think these animals are *so psychic* they simply attune to
the place they feel the most comfortable...(and that is where they go).

Looking further into my symbology book, I see: "In the New Kingdom
the male cat was regarded as an incarnation of the sun-god and
the she-cat was equated with the solar eye.  Feline figures may
display a scarab, the symbol of the rising sun, engraved on the
head or breast thus showing their solar significance.  The domestic cat
attained special significances as the sacred animal of Bastet.  Hundreds
of figures of cats were set up as votive offerings in the temple at
Bubastis in order that th donor might share in the goddess' grace."

Forgive my ranting, I just happen to have a thing for Egypt and hope
to get there some day (it was great fun in past lifetime incarnations :-) ).

Kathy

In ancient times, Egypt was the chief centre of magical knowledge
and practice.  In magic, either white or black, i.e.. used for
good or evil purposes, Egypt excelled even India.   (Paul Brunton:
A Search in Secret Egypt, chapter on "The Tombs: An Adept's Solemn Message"

Ps...Any one out there into Egypt?
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 20:01:34 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 41

Don Showen writes, in regard to author of above book saying:
"if man was created in the image of God, there can only
be one conclusion - Adam and his God were reptilian forms."

Well, this is *really* jumping the gun here!  One must remember
that "created in His image" may have many many interpretations..
not only meaning that means "physical".  It may be metaphor,
stating that spiritually, as light, we are created in God's image..

Interpretations can be tricky things.  So can authors who want
to push their thoughtform/belief.  I see this in many volumes:
they believe something, so will say anything from their own 'standpoint'.

I am not saying that there was *not* a time where there might have
been some pocus hocus in beings co-creating repiti

reptiles, or even the possibility of reptile co-creators existing
(I have a *very very abstract* mind and love imagination...)...

But to make this conclusion, in my opinion, is jumping the gun.

Now about a pope being assasinated who would "spill the beans"..
well, I can definitely accept that that pope WAS assasinated, but
my belief/thought might be more along the lines that there is
a certain hierarchy of corrupt ego centered beings in the Vatican,
and wanted the man out because it foiled some of their other
machinations.

Yes, I just don't trust people in "religious power", you might say.

No, who can tell me the name of that pope that died while having
such a short term...I can't recall his name?

For wisdom, accuracy, and clarity,

Kathy

The intuitive life does not always know how or why it acts, for it
is often spontaneous and unconscious.  But when it does become
at times intellectually self-conscious, its power in the world to
affect men is heightened, not lessened.    --Paul Brunton
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From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: periodic reality check (was Re: Helen)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 20:03:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 61

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Don Showen writes (in regard to Marciniak's Pleiadean channelings)
>that the ets that created cats "watch us through the cats in
>this sytem."
>Hmmmm...interesting.  Brings to mind several things.  They say
>cats are very "psychic" and as pets, oftentimes can be 'psychic
>protectors'.  A lady friend of mine has a cat, and many times
>when I would go to her house for a meditation/healing group, her
>cat would be sitting on my lap or on others' during the meditation.
>Animals can be very good "medicine", also (according to Sun Bear).
>My dog is the same way...always wants to get in the center of
>the meditation circle when I have this at my place.
>Also, I remember reading that birds, animals, etc. are emanantions
>of divine power.

    Reality check here, people. This is alt.alien.visitors, not
alt.newage or alt.conspiracy. Let's talk about aliens, not spirits
and channeling and divine power and all that fuzzy-headed mysticism.

    What you describe above (the behavior of the doggie and the
cat) is that tremendous, mysterious supernatural phenomenon called
WANTING ATTENTION. "Wow, all  these humans here staring into a
circle. If I was in the center of the circle they'd look at ME..."

    This is as silly as the people who dream about an  automobile
accident and the very next day just manage to avoid such an accident,
who then murmur in awe "wow, I must be psychic". Of course, considering
the number of accidents and near accidents each day, and the number of
people who have automobile related dreams, it would be a lot more shocking
if NO ONE ever had such connected dreams.

    Moreover, all this stuff has nothing to do with aliens except maybe
in some people's fantasies. Aliens created cats? Hm. Suppose they falsified
the fossil record too. If they wanted to monitor us, why in Gog's name
didn't they just drop a few hundred thousand electronic bugs (disguised
with their far superior tech) on the planet?

>Speaking of friendly, that reminds me of a neighbor's cat...that tried
>EXCEEDINGLY HARD to get into my home for a loooooong time...even
>when my dog stood ferociously eager to jump at it behind my open
>door, and the cat actually did run into my home one time (if
>remember serves me correctly).  She had no fear of my dog whatsoever.
>I think these animals are *so psychic* they simply attune to
>the place they feel the most comfortable...(and that is where they go).

    I think that these animals are so STUBBORN that they prefer to
go where they will. It's a sort of territory competition. The dogs and
cats in my neighborhood did it all the time. It's similar to the cats
who insist on rubbing against people who don't like them. However, most
animals learn by example; a cat who bounces off a wall after rubbing
against the wrong person will (usually -- cats are somewhat slow of mind)
not bother that particular person again.

    But do you really consider this behavior of trying to get into some
place they aren't wanted an evidence of psychic behavior? Then most kids
are psychic, aren't they? And obsessive fans of TV stars...


                Sea Wasp
                  /^\
                  ;;;
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: periodic reality check (was Re: Helen)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 20:57:56 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 33

Ryk E. Spoor writes: "Wow, all these human staring into
a circle."

Wrong!  The humans have their eyes *closed* and are going
into deeper levels of themselves.  My bet is the cat/dog/animals
sense/feel this energy that is expanded/created/evoked within
the human's energy fields and "bask" in it.  It can be quite
delightful, being in that sea of bliss, you know.

Rykie says: "let's talk about aliens, not spirit".

Well, Rykie old boy, some ets just might be in the spiritual "form"
(or should I say 'formless')  Open and expand your mind, old boy.
What you see here on earth, is not the only "reality" that is.

Rykie writes:  "most kids are psychic".

Right on.  We are *all* psychic...many just do not know it/have not
"realized it" yet.

We are multi-dimensional beings.  And if you are going to talk about
ets and aliens, it might be a little wisdom on your part to open
your mind that these ets and aliens do not only exist in the hard
solid core of human/flesh/humanoid bodies..

Expand...expand...you might learn something.

For open minds (closed minds do *so* bore me).

Kathy
:-)

Intuition is nothing but heightened awareness.  --Dr. Deepak Chopra
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From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic reality check (was Re: Helen)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 21:35:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 57

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk E. Spoor writes: "Wow, all these human staring into
>a circle."
>Wrong!  The humans have their eyes *closed* and are going
>into deeper levels of themselves.  My bet is the cat/dog/animals
>sense/feel this energy that is expanded/created/evoked within
>the human's energy fields and "bask" in it.  It can be quite
>delightful, being in that sea of bliss, you know.

    Deliver me, oh powers that be, from literal minds that then decry
a realist.
    Please try a little interpretation on the real plane. An animal may
well (almost certainly can, in fact) be able to tell if you are staring AT
them, but if they see a circle of people it's likely that they are just
seeing a gathering; a group. Dogs in particular will be attracted by this
(humans being their "pack"), and cats often resent being ignored.. at least,
until you WANT to pay attention to them, then they run away.

>Rykie says: "let's talk about aliens, not spirit".
>Well, Rykie old boy, some ets just might be in the spiritual "form"
>(or should I say 'formless')  Open and expand your mind, old boy.
>What you see here on earth, is not the only "reality" that is.

    If they don't exist on the real plane, then  talking about them is
futile and timewasting. Let's deal with what can be seen and touched and
analyzed, not with something on a par with the debate about whether
green is a better color than red; anyone can claim anything in such a
discussion and no one can prove anything, so you might as well be discussing
angels on pinheads. Smell the coffee instead of snorting it, please.

>Rykie writes:  "most kids are psychic".

    Please give full quotes. I did NOT say the above, and to misquote
me that way is tantamount to an interviewer of Moses quoting him as
saying "God said thou shalt steal, commit adultery, and covet every thing
that is thy neighbors..."

>Right on.  We are *all* psychic...many just do not know it/have not
>"realized it" yet.

    If psychic abilities exist (unproven) then perhaps we all do have
them. But the existence of such powers is in doubt and with your approach
it will ALWAYS be in doubt. If such powers DID exist, and people like you
REALLY understood them, you could eject all the wrong-thinkers from the
world leadership and show us  the light.

>ets and aliens, it might be a little wisdom on your part to open
>your mind that these ets and aliens do not only exist in the hard
>solid core of human/flesh/humanoid bodies..

    Certainly they could exist as energy beings. And if they did,
and could influence the world about them, they would leave definite,
measurable traces of their existence, and their existence could be easily
proven. If they CAN'T influence the world about them, then they might as
well NOT exist. A difference which makes no difference IS no difference.

                Sea Wasp
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!darwin.sura.net!blaze.cs.jhu.edu!wilson
From: [e-mail] (Dwight Wilson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 22:44:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University CS Department
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:19424 alt.paranormal:4096 alt.alien.visitors:3891 talk.religion.newage:8492 alt.satanism:333 alt.magick:2357

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rocky J Giovinazzo) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (RICHH) writes:
>
>>>     I want answers this time!  ANSWERS!!
>
>>You got answers last time you posted this.  I'll repeat them here for your
>>convenience.
>
>>>1.  There was this song going through my head.  A song they never,
>>>*ever* play anymore.  "Afternoon Delight" it was.  "--rubbing
>
>[more "phenomena" along with follow-up explanations deleted]
>
>Gee... I thought this was a joke.  RICHH is serious?

Well I wasn't certain at until I reached the end of the article.
The line about key-bending is a bit of a giveaway.
--
-Dwight
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons."
                            -Alien Monster on The Simpsons
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic reality check (was Re: Helen)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 23:02:03 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 51

Ryk Spoor writes:  "if they (meaning the ets) don't exist
on the real plane, then talking about them is futile."

What is the "real" plane?  You think you know reality?
Is this earth plane the only "real" plane?  Talking about
them is not futile..only futile to those with closed minds
who can not conceive that their existence may be as "real"
and valid as *your* existence.

If one's ears are blocked, that does not mean the voice does
not exist that is speaking.

So what did I do to "mis-quote" what you said about psychic
kids?  I summed it up in a nutshell (what I thought you said).
What exactly did you say about kids being psychic (I did not
save your previous post).

You also mentioned something about me "showing them the light."
I can not "show" any one "the light".  Each person must make
this how own quest and discovery.  Besides, it is not "shown"
--it is "revealed" to one as he/she makes spiritual opening into
larger dimensions of beingness.

You also said something about "ets can't influence the world about
them".  Ets can "help" people to think in broader horizons...I
think it would be breaking Universal Law for them to *impose*
their thinking/thoughtforms on to you.  This is not their purpose
(in my opinion).  The ets that I feel are the helpful ones are
those that are seeking to help the people on this planet *evolve*
Free will is always respected and given honor.  If you shut them
out of your psyche, they will respect that, and go to those who
will "hear" their message.

Energy beings was  a good word that you used.  Now, you are
catching on a little!

Just because you think dogs/cats like a pack, does not dismiss
the idea that they are also attracted to the energy.  I notice
my continually sitting by me, and even trying to get under
my feet (yes, energy can be emitted through the feet, hands,
and crown).

I don't think you give enough intelligent credit to our
wonderful animal friends.  In fact, I think many animals
have more intelligence than some human beings.

For truth, wisdom, light, and learning..

Kathy
(ps..and some learning involved "unlearning"...unlearning especially
rigid, crystallized thinking about what is reality and what is not).
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The coming space odyssey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 92 22:27:25 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 17

"I am a HAL 9000 Computer...  I was born on January 12, 1992."  were the words
spoken today by the latest advance in cybernetics brought to us by Dr.
R. Chandra.  Later, this revolutionary machine beat the pants off of
all comers at the amazing new game of triominoes and amazed thousands with
its heartfelt rendition of _A Bicycle Built for Two_.  NASA representatives
stated they intend to incorporate this new prototype into future space
probes to Jupiter and will give it full control of the SETI project on
October 12th.  Pres. Bush was quoted as saying "It all sounds like something
out a movie, but it's true!"  The HAL 9000 computer is the latest in a series
of stunning advances made by Dr. Chandra.  Barely 30 years old, he has
taken the computer world by storm.  Just weeks ago, he completed his PhD
thesis and took a job with the newly reopened Cyberdyne Systems.  The HAL 9000
computer is the product of a two year collaboration with that industry
leader.  Cyberdyne Systems president Michael Forbin sees unlimited uses
for the new HAL 9000 computer.  "This computer is to a Connection Machine
what a Connection Machine is to ENIAC.  The 21st century will be an entirely
different world thanks to the HAL 9000 computer."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re^3: Firsthand account
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 01:40:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Distribution: na
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Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: sunce

[e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:

=>>While they're hanging out, ask them why they use something as primitive as
=>>needles for their sampling and implants when they have a metallurgy and
=>>propulsion system beyond our understanding of physical laws.
=>
=>That's easy.  It's the same question as: how can we send people to the moon
=>and yet fail to make a good enough car to sell even to Americans (never mind
=>to Japanese).

Master!  I *believe* !!!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!spool.mu.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!rutgers!noao!amethyst!organpipe.uug.arizona.edu!news
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: International UFO conference
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 03:25:02 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group
Lines: 8

An alien friend of mine recently attended the International UFO
conference hopping to meet up with alot of it's fiends. Apparently
there were alot of UFOs there but the couldn't be identified.

what a shame

Joe
 :-(
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From: [e-mail] (Joe Gotobed x4549)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A Tale of Two Whales
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 03:49:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Lunar & Planetary Laboratory, Tucson AZ.
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
> SUBJECT:  A TALE OF TWO WHALES ............
    I had promised my Whale friends I wouldn't tell the other humans
    about them but after this expose I asked again and they said OK!
>
>Incidentally whales didn't evolve on earth .

    THis is old news, but they aren't stuck here you know.

>It can see your circulatory system, in detail, as well as spot blood
>clots and aneurysms. Because it can sense differences in pressure within the
>body, it could so also diagnose glaucoma, appendicitis, or inflamed tonsils.

    A few years ago I was out diving and almost died when I had a
    problem with gaul stones. An Orca came by *Xrayd* me with his sonar
    and then disolved the stones with ultra sound, something we humans
    only just recently *discovered*.

>Establishing communication with the orcas will greatly advance all medicine, (
>evolved to that point) tremendously;

    The Orcas told us about the abdominizer!

>
>This is being posted by Don Showen for John Winston. I am not Don, Don is not
>me.

    I you orca-Sho-Win Swim is peace
Joe
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ihz.compuserve.com!dzecchini
From: [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO DETECTORS ?? GET SERIOUS !!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 05:25:16 GMT
References: <1427212943@[e-mail].> <422800020@peg>
Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
Lines: 31

I don't know...when you look at it altogether, the idea of detecting UFO's
doesn't seem THAT strange.

Let's see, though.  I don't think that UFO's would have a large-scale,
detectable EM field.  Something tells me that anything THAT concentrated and
powerful would fry the EM fields of the beings inside.  (And any beings
i.e. birds, that happened by.  We'll go under the assumption that UFO's LIKE
birds cuz they're cute.)

However, I think it's safe to assume that the ET's have machinery capable
of affecting gravitation directly.  How would Newton, Galileo, etc. have
deigned to find them.  Some method for detecting large-scale gravitic-field
distortions.

I'VE GOT IT!!!

All you have to do is stand outside on ANY clear night, and keep dropping
SUPERBALLS on the pavement!  As SOON as one is deflected, you'll be
CERTAIN that there's a UFO around! <g>

(Course, you wouldn't need to DO this if someone could actually prove that
they've detected gravitons...but then again, that's the wonder of modern
science!)

Be seing you...

--
         David "Maelstrom" Zecchini | "It may be better to be a live jackal
       [e-mail] | than a dead lion, but it is better still
 [e-mail] | to be a live lion.  And usually easier."
           [e-mail] | -Robert A. Heinlein
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ARIZONA UFO'S
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 07:28:19 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Master)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Montana State University
Lines: 4

YATAH HE! billy%anasazi:
    Just lettin' you know I'm still here and thinking of you all the while
that I am awaiting the information that you requested.  It will posted as soon
as it arrives.                                      Shoz d'Jiji
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 03:23:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 47

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>Later, someone at the Office of Naval research in Washington turned up a
>copy of Jessup's UFO book that had been "annotated", apparently by three
>different persons, "Mr. A", "Mr. B", and "Jemi". "The writers made little
>effort to conceal their contempt for mere human beings. Jessup
>immediately recognized the handwriting, with its bizarre spelling,
>capitalization and punctuation, as that of his mysterious correspondant
>Carl(os) Allen(de)... the three writers continually referred to that
>secret 1943 naval experiment."

Moore & Berlitz only say that it was mentioned a few times in the
annotations.  Of course, they also let out the part about the writers
supposedly being aliens, if that's what they're supposed to be.

>Allen's letters carried the return address of a house in New Kensington,
>PA, the author's home town, so he investigated.
>
>"I learned the whereabouts of all three of Allen(de)'s brothers." He also
>located Carl's father, turned out to be his neighbor. Goerman was given
>full access to papers that the family had. He concludes, "Carlos loves
>to play games with those foolish enough to play audience... Carl is
>described as a 'master leg-puller'. Once he purportedly feigned a heart
>attack while working ... ". In a letter to his parents, Carl admits
>annotating Jessup's book, by himself.

I wonder why Moore had such a hard time tracking down information on
Allende?

>"In his letters to Jessup, Carl does not mention the name or number
>of his experimental ship. In Moore and Berlitz' book he states, "It
>was the DE-173."

That doesn't necessarily mean anything.

>"It is clear that the legend of Carl Allen/Carlos Allende is mostly
>fiction. If someone were to write a book telling the *real* story,
>its title might be 'The Philadelphia Hoax: Project Gullibility."

*Mostly* fiction.  But what about the story of Davis and Huse at the
beginning of Moore & Berlitz's book?  They apparently heard the story
through some route other than Allende.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!apple!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: OBSERVATION !
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 03:25:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 13
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3900 talk.bizarre:47821

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:

>Ergo, Biff's new secret identity (he's incognito, hiding from
>the net.cops) is an alt.alien.visitors poster.

I prefer the theory someone posted a while ago (maybe it was even you!)
that BIFF was Carlos Allende.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: PLANETS DISCOVERED!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 03:28:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Barry) writes:
>With all the *noise* present on this group, did we all forget about the
>purported discovery of the existence of planets in another solar system
>outside of our own???  Anyone have the real poop on this?

I don't like the noise either, but I don't think we're going to get much
talk out of a planet orbiting a pulsar.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic reality check (was Re: Helen)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 07:45:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 91

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk Spoor writes:  "if they (meaning the ets) don't exist
>on the real plane, then talking about them is futile."
>
>What is the "real" plane?  You think you know reality?
>Is this earth plane the only "real" plane?  Talking about
>them is not futile..only futile to those with closed minds
>who can not conceive that their existence may be as "real"
>and valid as *your* existence.

    If *I* can't detect them, then whatever "reality" they exist in has no
contact with mine, and therefore does not matter. This IS the only real plane
FOR HUMAN BEINGS. We exist on this earth, in this spacetime. Any others that
can't contact ours in a meaningful, detectable way might as well not exist.
Sure, they might be there, but then it's the same as looking at the blank
sheet of paper; yep, it might well be a picture of a polar bear in a blizzard,
but if I can't tell the difference then it remains a blank sheet of paper.

>If one's ears are blocked, that does not mean the voice does
>not exist that is speaking.

    Ah, but I can detect a speaking voice through modalities other than
seeing. However, if I have ears blocked and you claim that a voice is
speaking to me, yet ALL other sensors show that there IS NO VOICE, then
I don't need to unblock my ears; a voice would have shown its presence in
those other ways. I have already proven you wrong in that case.

>So what did I do to "mis-quote" what you said about psychic
>kids?  I summed it up in a nutshell (what I thought you said).
>What exactly did you say about kids being psychic (I did not
>save your previous post).

    In essence I said that "if [what you said] is true, then all kids
are psychic"; by quoting me as saying "all kids are psychic" then you are
making it appear that I assumed the truth of the first statement, that
what you said was true. I had not. It was meant to be a semi-sarcastic
example of how silly the reasoning you were using was.

>You also mentioned something about me "showing them the light."
>I can not "show" any one "the light".  Each person must make
>this how own quest and discovery.  Besides, it is not "shown"
>--it is "revealed" to one as he/she makes spiritual opening into
>larger dimensions of beingness.

    If you can't SHOW it to me, in some form or other, then it can't
be REALITY; it can only be an opinion or a philosophy that has no more
validity than a billion others... and consequently little utility.

>You also said something about "ets can't influence the world about
>them".  Ets can "help" people to think in broader horizons...I
>think it would be breaking Universal Law for them to *impose*
>their thinking/thoughtforms on to you.  This is not their purpose
>(in my opinion).  The ets that I feel are the helpful ones are
>those that are seeking to help the people on this planet *evolve*
>Free will is always respected and given honor.  If you shut them
>out of your psyche, they will respect that, and go to those who
>will "hear" their message.

    If they could send REAL messages, then I'd listen. But if they
are only capable of sending messages to people who are willing to believe
in ANYTHING without evidence or proof, I must wonder at their choices. Just
what do they think they will accomplish by choosing the group of people
least likely to be able to act in any effective manner?
    I mean, what universal law is this that you're talking about?
Is it illegal for them to transmit a simple message in an UNAMBIGUOUS FASHION?
Like, have my terminal say suddenly "YO! STUPID! HERE WE ARE!"? Heck, even a
halfway bright hacker can do that. And these superpowerful ETs can't...


>
>Energy beings was  a good word that you used.  Now, you are
>catching on a little!

    Same words that I used in previous discussions. But an energy creature
would be rather easily demonstrable by modern science (all energy decays to
waste heat, and entropy would ensure these beings radiating at least some
energy...). To prove their existence, just have one alien arrive in a lab
with sensitive thermal detectors.

>I don't think you give enough intelligent credit to our
>wonderful animal friends.  In fact, I think many animals
>have more intelligence than some human beings.

    Perhaps humans with lobotomies. No animal on earth has an intellect
comparable to a normal human being. The so-called talking chimps and signing
gorillas are only sad examples of how a scientist's own desires can influence
the course of an experiment.

                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Path: ns-mx!uunet!know!hri.com!spool.mu.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewsj!dwn
From: [e-mail] (david.nodes)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: firsthand experience
Keywords: true
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 08:46:39 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 86




I am somewhat reluctant to post.   I know how skeptical people
can be.  Rightly so I geuss.   There seems so much fooling around
in this group.  Thanks to those who take this seriously.

In sept. 1985 while camping up over high point n.j.   I was abducted by
what I believe had to have been extraterrestrials.   I was awaken
sometime after midnight, I felt myself rising, tent, all my gear,
everything, floating up, it was not at all that unpleasant, smooth
rising.  I was slow to react.  I can have vivid dreams, it really took
me a few minutes to know I was actually awake.  I was not frightened.
I knew something extraordinary was happening.  When I finally stopped,
I felt cool metal beneath the floor of my tent.   I crept to the opening
of my tent and started to undo the zippers and ties.   Peeking out
all I saw was a uniform grey.  Floors, ceilings, walls?  I couldn't
tell.  I could sense depth, it wasn't fog but fog like.  By then, not
scared, but very excited, I sat and waited.  Who am I?  Nobody, this,
I knew was the most important thing that could ever happen to me.
Some time passed (i had no clocks of any kind), nobody came
to get me.  Figured I'd be summoned or something.   I had to pee.
I stepped out of my tent.   I looked out in the gray blankness, it
was all I could see, me and my stuff were all there was.  I pissed.
I was embarrassed for myself.  I felt I should just do what I had
too.  I walked maybe 100 yrds out.  I sensed nothing new, just my stuff
getting smaller behind me.  Alot of time passed.   I was now a bit
worried the food I had with me would not last too long.   Finally
a wind whipped up.  My stuff went sliding away from me.  I laid
flat to the floor, with this wind ripping over me, the pads of my finger
tips were the only things holding me in place, and I felt my grip
beginning to slide, til finally I flew off in the direction of my stuff
at the mercy of this wind (force?).  When I came to rest I began to
hear explosions.  Looking around I saw what appeared a battlefield.
A tattered chainlink fence topped with razor wire was in front of
me (the direction I slid from).  The explosions seemed far off.  I
could see flashes in the darkened (nightime?) sky.  There was asphalt
under me, it felt very real, there air was cool, much cooler than
the grey place, helicopters were in the sky shining lights, looking
for something.  I got to my knees, keeping low, I looked around,
spotting a lit door in back of me.  I crawled to it, crawled in the
door way, slamming it shut behind me.  It was a hotel room.  An average
looking place.  I heard none of the sounds of war I had left behind.
There was a hot meal on a tray, some kind of meat, in a red tomato
sauce, with pasta, or something like pasta, it was bland stuff really,
maybe not quite right.  I ate it all.  I felt relieved, it seemed
a normal enough hotel room.  I took a shower.   I laid on the bed
and slept for awhile after that.  I was exhausted alot of time had past.
I woke in the very same room.   An urgent thought was 'pressed' into
my mind.  See I, David was given a very important decision.  I could
end everything, not just my life, all life, that was clear, all I
had to do was press the tip of my pinky, to the center of the wall.
I decided to do it.  I am not sure why, at this point, I felt I was
being tested, like the rat in the maze and I didn't know if I would
ever see the world I knew again anyway, maybe I was ready to end it
all.  I approached the wall, and slowly applied my pinky tip to the
doomsday spot.  Thru the walls I felt the searing heat coming.  The
whitest hot wall of light replaced the wall of the room and advanced
slowly towards me.  As it got to me I felt it consume me, it was the
strangest thing, as it was working my way across my body towards the
pinky tip that was still on the wall, I was aware of the non-existance
of the parts of my body the light was passing thru.  As the light
consumed my head, I was still 'watching' it work down consuming my
arm to the pinky on the wall.  Before it consumed the last of my
pinky tip, I released, the tip from the spot, and all was as it was
before I touched the spot.  It was remarkable.  I tried it several
times.  Always releasing the tip from the spot before it was totally
consumed.  I feared what might happen if I didn't.  I spent seemingly
weeks in this room, facing similiar strange situations.  At the
end of it, I awoke, stiff, sleeping on the ground where my tent had
been pitched, the knees of my jeans where worn from crawling and
stuff I did, in the seeming weeks, when I was wherever I was.  I hiked
back to my car and drove home.  I did not report it to any authorities.
I told some of my closest friends.  They came up with lots of rationals.
The experience was quite real, and I could really write hundreds of
pages of what I experienced in the 'hotel room'.  My life goes on
today.  I don't care if anyone believes.   I was not mis-treated
physically, I can recall none of the medical type tests other people
report.  I am not sure whether I would care for the experience again.
I think I would.  I feel privileged in a way.   There are forces in
the universe greater than ourselves.  Capable of collecting us like
bugs, and running us thru mazes like rats.  Skeptics go rot.  I really
don't care if anyone believes,  I wouldn't if I hadn't gone thru it
firsthand.   I will post more of my experiences in the 'hotel' if
anyone is interested.                                   -dave

Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!wupost!think.com!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic reality check (was Re: Helen)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 12:01:44 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 56

Ryk Spoor writes:  "This IS the only real human plane for
HUMAN BEINGS"

'fraid not.  Just because you *think/believe* that, does not
make it so.  Let us say that this is *your* reality system.

RS writes:  "Any others that can't contact ours..."

Maybe it's up to *you* to contact *them*.  You have to do the
work of opening...not them.  They are already very open.  It
is your ego with its' belief systems that thinks *they* must
contact *you*.

RS:  "I have already proven you wrong"

You haven't proven any one wrong, your'e just caught in your
own belief system/thoughtforms.

RS: "..all other sensors show...etc."

So you *think/believe*.  It may not be truth.  Open beings have
ALL sensors open.  If your ears are closed, then you are not
fully open.  Very simply.

RS:  "If you can't SHOW it to me (the light) then it has NO
REALITY.

Wrong again.  Beings ARE light.  Your job is to be-come it more
fully and show it to YOURSELF.

RS:  "..group of people least effective."

That is your *opnion*.  Great things can and ARE done in the silence..
this has to do with the operation of vibration/energy on other levels
of awareness/and beingness.  You are caught into concrete "reality"
systems.

RS:  "No animal has an intellect comparable to a normal human
being."

That's for sure.  Oftentimes human beings have very mixed up
and ignorant intellects that block them from higher awareness.  Human
beings have been known to starve out in the wilderness whereas
animals have innate intelligence of where to exactly go for their
food supply.

Ryk, I feel sorry for you.  You are so sure of your beliefs,
that is part of what blocks you from the contact you so desire.

Kathy

The hard, almost callous, insensitivity of so many modersn, their
skeptical, contemptuous, sarcastic, and conceited attitude when
confronted with the finer and subtler things of life, show how
deeply atheism, or materialism, has eaten into their souls, how
ignorant theyare of the higher laws governing life.  --Paul Brunton
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!psuvax1!hsdndev!spdcc!dirtydog.ima.isc.com!ispd-newsserver!laidbak!amiganet!npalombo
From: [e-mail] (Nick Palombo)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Gulf Breeze Question
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 02:47:54 GMT
Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems
Lines: 9


   I was just thinking about those sightings aroung Gulf Breeze FL. From what
I understand that's near Pensacola Fl, right? Well, there's a Naval Air
station there. Does anyone think it just might be something the Navy is
flying? Obviously, whatever kind of craft it is, it is unconventional. But
perhaps the people flying it are normal. Just a thought that I did not see
discussed.

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Helen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 14:56:38 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 29


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>>Is it true that aliens landed on the earth in the 5th century BC and now live
>>inside the bodies of all cats?
>
>It is interesting you should ask that at this time.  I recently
>finished listening to one of the Pleiadian tapes by Barbra Marciniak.
>They said something interesting about cats.  They teach that the whole
>universe contributed DNA in the creation of earth. And that the particular
>ets that created cats, watch us through the cats, from their system.
>
>Don Showen

        Well actually it  is  the  mice.   Earth is a giant experiment by
        aliens that are the  mice  of this world.  The Vogon construction
        ships that were building a  interseller byway destroyed the Earth
        because it was in the way.   The experiment was incomplete so the
        Earth  was reconstructed to the exact moment  before  the  Vogons
        destroyed  it  so that the mice could complete there  experiment.
        So its the mice that are watching us not the cats.


        God  you people are funny.  "Cats are  aliens  that  are  watching
        us...." MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

        I have a pot of coffee brewing here.  Can  any  of  you  smell it
        or are you still asleep.

        Steve Food_for_the_greys
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From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic reality check (was Re: Helen)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 17:18:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk Spoor writes:  "This IS the only real human plane for
>HUMAN BEINGS"
>'fraid not.  Just because you *think/believe* that, does not
>make it so.  Let us say that this is *your* reality system.

    [henceforth I delete other things which are on the same level - i.e.,
Goddess making assertions for which she has no evidence, only beliefs]

>Ryk, I feel sorry for you.  You are so sure of your beliefs,
>that is part of what blocks you from the contact you so desire.

     *I* am so sure of my beliefs?! Does anyone else out there hear
what I hear in this? Kath, at least *I* can verify the reality of MY
assertions! You proffer no evidence for any of your claims and yet you
have the balls to say *I* am holding to beliefs that block me? Wake up,
please! YOU are the one making assertions and holding to beliefs that
only YOU can verify. At least *MY* version of "reality", to use your
terms, can be directly shared with millions of other people, without
requiring that THEY take me as a sort of personal guru.


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!amdcad!netcomsv!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 16:22:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>
>I wonder why Moore had such a hard time tracking down information on
>Allende?

What kind of "mystery" would he have if the information was obtainable
so easily?
>
>>"In his letters to Jessup, Carl does not mention the name or number
>>of his experimental ship. In Moore and Berlitz' book he states, "It
>>was the DE-173."
>
>That doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Originally, Allende *didn't know* any names of any ships. Later, he
did. Possibly understanible, but sounds fishy.
>
--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Simply follow nature, Rousseau declares. Sade, laughing,
        grimly agrees."          - Camille Paglia, "Sexual Personae"
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From: [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: green meteors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 17:41:05 GMT
Organization: Indiana University
Lines: 21


    While driving to St Louis early Sat morning, I watched a
    green meteor in the southern sky. It was just a regular
    one and all, except that it was green. This reminded me
    of the tales my father had of two particular ones he had
    seen.

    In addition to regular green meteors he had seen, two others
    were something special, and he always communicated a sense of
    awe when relating the stories. One in particular (in the 50's)
    was so slow moving and so long lasting that he was sure it
    was not a meteor. It was also seen across the continent by many
    people. I think it was this that led him to want to attend the
    KC UFO club meetings in the early sixties.

    I don't recall the theories he had or had heard about these
    or the details that made people think they were not meteors.

    Can someone tell me more about the reasons people did (and
    still do?) place emphasis on these slow-moving celestial
    events?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!ukma!hsdndev!encore!kfried
From: [e-mail] (Ken Fried)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment?
Summary: Philadelphia Experiment...The Movie
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 17:16:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Encore Computer Corp, Fort Lauderdale, FL
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There is a movie titles the Philadelphia Experiment that you can rent. The
movie is pretty intense.

Ken
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From: [e-mail] (Darren Gregory Stone)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 19:02:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (RICHH)
writes:
>      I used to be a non-believer.  Crystals, Ramtha, magic
> pyramids, Nostradamus, crop circles, self-fellatio:  to all these
> I would say, "Bah, bunk!."  But lately, irrefutable evidence of the
> paranormal has been creeping into my daily life.  So attention all
> ye naysayers:  read on and BELIEVE!!!!!!!!
> [stuff deleted]

Hmmm.  What's all this about self-fellatio?  Forget twisting bread
bags...  how does >this< work?
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From: [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Redheaded Goddess and Excessive Extrapolation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 18:44:05 GMT
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X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11



The person who refers to herself as the "Redheaded Goddess" says
"expand your mind" and other things to the effect that E.T.'s
are (or could be) multidimensional beings, posessing all sorts
of bizarre spiritual properties  I would not care to debate, but
which (you will forgive me, madame) bear a distinctly "New Age"
air of philosophical speculation.  I do not claim that such
speculation is a bad thing, but I feel that the lady in question
may be missing the point, to wit:  Postulating such vague spiritual
or psychic abilities on the part of alien beings  is at best an
unproductive line of reasoning, in view of the fact that the
human race has no tangible, concrete, irrefutable proof of their
existence in the first place, and that we should confine ourselves
to a program of rational scientific debate and analysis upon what
IS known, BEFORE we wander off on these other arcane, tantalizing
tangents of thought.  It is for this reason that I feel compelled
to agree with the gentleman who feels that alt.alien.visitors
seems to be wobbling a bit "far afield" of its supposed "main topic".

If the afforementioned "Redheaded Goddess" reads this, I would like
to say directly to her:  Madame (or Ms, or Ma'am), I am not "poking
fun" or belittling your (again, forgive the phrase) "New Age"
philosophical "slant" upon the UFO phenomenon, and hope sincerely
that you realize this; I am only stating a personal opinion that
unrestrained, unfocused speculation and extrapolation are of little
or no use in the study of what, you must admit, is a rather ill-
defined phenomenon to begin with.

                                    T.R. Stone
                                    University of Nebraska-Omaha
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: PLANETS DISCOVERED!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 15:13:18 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Barry) writes:
>With all the *noise* present on this group, did we all forget about the
>purported discovery of the existence of planets in another solar system
>outside of our own???  Anyone have the real poop on this?

Article: 19434
From: [e-mail] (T. Joseph Lazio, Cornell University)
Newsgroups: sci.astro
Subject: A Planetary System around the Millisecond Pulsar PSR1257+12
Date: 10 Jan 92 15:15:17 GMT
Organization: Cornell University

Keywords:  pulsars, PSR1257+12, planets
Summary:  Planet-sized objects discovered around PSR1257+12.

 I was going to post this earlier, but forgot.  In what follows is the
 abstract for the discovery paper by A. Wolszczan and D. Frail announcing
 the discovery of two planets orbiting a pulsar.  Note that this is not
 the same pulsar around which Lyne and his collaborators announced they
 had found a planet last summer.  The paper will appear in Nature.

       A Planetary System around the Millisecond Pulsar PSR 1257+12
                       A. Wolszczan and D. Frail

 Millisecond radio pulsars, which are old (approximately 1.0E9 yr),
 rapidly rotating neutron stars believed to be spun up by accretion of
 matter from their stellar companions, are usually found in binary
 systems with other degenerate stars (ref. 1).  Using the 305 m Arecibo
 telescope to make precise timing measurements from the recently discovered
 6.2 ms pulsar PSR 1257+12 (ref. 2), we demonstrate that, rather than being
 associated with a stellar object, the pulsar is orbited by two or
 more planet sized bodies.  The planets detected so far have masses
 >= 2.8 M(Earth) and >= 3.4 M(Earth), where M(Earth) is the mass of the
 Earth.  Their respective distances from the pulsar are 0.47 AU and
 0.36 AU and they move in almost circular orbits (e approximately 0.02)
 with periods of 98.2 and 66.6 days.  Observations indicate that at least
 one more planet may be present in this system.  The detection of a
 planetary system around a nearby (approximately 500 pc), old neutron
 star, together with the recent report on a planetary companion to the
 pulsar PSR 1829-10 (ref. 3) raises the tantalizing possibility that
 a non-negligible fraction of neutron stars observable as radio pulsars
 may be orbited by planet-like bodies.

 References cited in Abstract:

 1. Bhattacharya, D. & van den Heuvel, E. P. J.  _Phys. Rep._, 203,
         1-124 (1991).

 2. Wolszczan, A.  _IAU Circular No. 5073_ (1990).

 3. Bailes, M., Lyne, A. & Shemar, S. L.  _Nature_, 352, 311-313 (1991).

--
 T. Joseph Lazio                | Why relativity? and Why
 514 Space Sciences             | turbulence?  I really believe
 Ithaca, NY  14853              | [God] will have an answer for the
 [phone]                 | first [question].
 [e-mail]  |   -- W. Heisenberg, on his death bed
ICBM:                           |
 42 deg. 20' 08" N              |              STOP RAPE
 76 deg. 28' 48" W              |
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From: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 20:59:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
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In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 10 Jan 92 22:16:29 GMT

All,
This EXACT same message was posted to the bboard several months ago.
A number of people informed me, by private email, that the poster had
his tongue firmly planted in his cheek...

--
Gerry Roston ([e-mail]) | I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and
Field Robotics Center,          | punishes his creatures, or has a will of
Carnegie Mellon University      | the type of which we are conscious in
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | ourselves.  An individual who should
[phone]                  | survive his physical death is also beyond
                                | my comprehension,...; such notions are for
The opinions expressed are mine | the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls.
and do not reflect the official | Albert Einstein
position of CMU, FRC, RedZone,  |
or any other organization.      |
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From: [e-mail] (be here now)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 19:41:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 97
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3915 talk.religion.newage:8505 sci.skeptic:19462

I read this and felt that I had to comment.

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Since this book is not going to be seen in any Christian owned book stores I
> have decided to post this information on the net.
>
> Don Showen
>
> Flying Serpents And Dragons
>
> The Story of Mankind's Reptilian Past
> The evidence that we are the children of Ancient Astronauts and Serpent-Gods
> WERE ADAM AND EVE HUMAN?
>
> The Old Testament account of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is an
> abbreviated version of what actually happened.

I have to disagree.  You talk as if the fabled "Adam & Eve" story were some
sort of true event when it is just a myth, a way of explaining the unknown
and how we (as separate male and female beings) came to be.  It is NOT an
abbr. version of what actually happened, at least not in my mind.  It is a
symbolic story with lots of embellishments thrown in for religious-control.

> The real story has been changed
> through a long tradition of selection and revision. The ancient Scriptures
> which were ignored give us a different story.
>
> For example, according to the Haggadah, the source of Jewish legend and oral
> tradition, the following happened after they ate of the forbidden fruit:

Another miscontruction.

People are so obsessed with looking back from whence they *think* they've
come, that they end up walking backwards into their own future.  Let go of
these obsessions and confusions, embrace your future head on without past
biases and conditionings.

> The first result was that Adam and Eve became naked. Before, their bodies had
> been overlaid with a horny skin, and enveloped with the cloud of glory. No
> sooner had they violated the (command given them than the cloud of glory and
> the horny in dropped from them, and they stood there in their nakedness and
> ashamed.

"Faith" implies a certain lack of knowledge and a lack of understanding.
For most people "faith" is all they have, so I can't really condemn it.
But "Faith" is objectionable when it is applied toward an unbalanced system,
one in which humans are placed above or without parallel to other life forms
on the planet (for example).  There is no objective reasoning within "faith"
so it becomes the contrary undoing in ways unconceiveable to its bearer.

Also, there is no need for people to be or feel ashamed of being who we are.
It is common enough knowledge that we're all born "naked".  To be ashamed of
something that wonderful, that innocent, is pure folly.  A society that has
this kind of misinformation drilled into their heads about nakedness is sure
to have all sorts of neurosis about being unable to cope with the fact that
being naked is a NATURAL condition and that is honorable to be so.  Being
naked brings joy and new life; being ignorant brings pain and shamefulness.

"Horny" skin?  Has this guy ever considered writing comedy??

> Now Eve believed the words of the serpent. She looked at the tree. She took
> some of its fruit and ate, and she gave to her husand also, and he ate too.
> Then their mind opened. For when they ate, the light of knowledge shone for
> them; they knew they were naked with regard to knowledge. When they saw their
> makers, they loathed them since they were beastly forms. They understood very
> much.
>
> It thus appears that if Man was created in the image of God, there can, only
> be one conclusion - Adam and his God were reptilian  forms!

One conclusion, eh?  Nah.  That is narrow-mindedness at best.  You are
taking a myth, a symbolic way of describing something and then believing
it literally as if it's THE one-and-only Truth, with a touch of your own
personal embellishment.

This is what has happened with most religions and sects today.  They have
become blind and have long since lost their dreams and their myths.  Thus
they persist in trying to take away the dreams and myths of OTHER PEOPLE,
replacing them with their own fears and their own brand of religious cacca.

Why do you think the right-wing-fundies are trying to abolish and/or curtail
the U.S. Bill of Rights?  They've banned books, blocked the free expression
of art, and most importantly, they would take away our (yours and mine) right
to believe in symbols, myths, and other forms of philosophy other than what
they espouse as THE one-and-only Truth.  This is what I object to in your
writeup of this "lizard" book.  It follows in the tradition of true religious
ignorance.  Of which, need I say, we already have more than enough of.  We
need to stand up to this steam-roller religious attitude wherever we happen
to encounter it.

Well I've made my point.  No sense going on any further with it.  I merely
am raising a flag here folks, you can ignore it if that's your prerogative.


--
rj pietkivitch       |  "Moon, my long lost friend, is smiling from above."
[e-mail]  |   -- Genesis, Stagnation
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!think.com!linus!linus!jon
From: [e-mail] (J. E. Shum)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 23:51:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
> Since this book is not going to be seen in any Christian owned book stores I
> have decided to post this information on the net.  Although I am sure the
> Christian minds will snap shut like a bear trap.  This book will shed a lot of
> light to those who have been negatively influenced by religion.  As well as
> showing why this planet has not gone very far under the reptilian gods of
> religion.  Oh, btw the Vatican? knows all about this.  They assinated a pope
> who was going to spill the beans.
> Don Showen
>
> Flying Serpents And Dragons

------ DELETED TEXT TO SAVE SPACE --------------


Geez!  Does Von Daniken know about this?  I'm sure it would clear up
all of the inconsistencies in "Chariots of the Gods."  At least it
would take care of those not covered in "The Secret Life of Plants."



;^)
--
If you have a hero, look again.  You have probably
  diminished yourself in some way. -Sheldon Kopp

email:  <[e-mail]>   snailmail:  J. E. Shum, USA, 20904-6188
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From: [e-mail] (Rick I. Majpruz)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: idiot of the century
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 92 02:21:52 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 1

Yep, that's me.  Sorry for any inconvienence.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Three star tells all
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 18:37:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 10

How does the general know that he's not just part of some sort of
psychological experiment?

And how do we know that he's telling the truth, or that he even exists?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
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From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFO'S
Message-ID: <1992Jan13.150647.6623@anasaz>
Date: 13 Jan 92 15:06:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
->YATAH HE! billy%anasazi:
->    Just lettin' you know I'm still here and thinking of you all the while
->that I am awaiting the information that you requested.  It will posted as soon
->as it arrives.                                      Shoz d'Jiji

Great. And I hope you make me look like a fool for thinking you're some kind
of kook. I'll be waiting for you post and I'll be down at the newspaper
mourge the same day.

--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!pacbell.com!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 92 03:47:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
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[e-mail] writes:
> Flying Serpents And Dragons
>
> The Story of Mankind's Reptilian Past
>
> The evidence that we are the children of Ancient Astronauts and Serpent-Gods
>
> WERE ADAM AND EVE HUMAN?
>
> The Old Testament account of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is an
> abbreviated version of what actually happened. The real story has been change
> through a long tradition of selection and revision. The ancient Scriptures
> which were ignored give us a different story.
>
        (Much stuff about the Bible, Adam and Eve, and green scaly things
deleted.)

        You know, I'm as much impressed wth the fact that he actually felt
this book was worth 91 lines of typing as I am by the sheer brain-twisting
gibberish of its content.

Rev. P-K-- "Sort of like that guy in the polar bear suit in 'Santa Claus
Conquers theMartians.'"

Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano
[e-mail]
Organizer of the Delaware Valley Skeptics (though opinions posted are my own,
and not representative).
"Meanwhile, in the darkness and void, Jean-Paul Sartre was a-movin' and a
groovin'." -- Crow, Mystery Science Theater 3000.
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From: [e-mail] (Mike Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Helen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 92 23:30:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA
Lines: 19

>Ps...Any one out there into Egypt?
>----------
Yes. I've read alot about Egypt, and studied heiroglyphics a bit.
Edgar Cayce discussed Ancient Egypt and talked about the time of the mass
influx of Atlanteans into Egypt just before, during, and after the Flood.
He put the date of the flood at 10,500 B.C.(if I remember correctly), and
said that the Great Pyramid at Giza was built at that time. Yes, I know,
Cheops is supposed to have built it. No proof of this really exist though.
It is claimed that the Great Pyramid is a prophetic device and there have
been a few books written on this subject. My favorite on this subject is
"The Pyramid Decoded". Sorry I can't recall the author but will get it and
post if anyone is interested. If the author's theories are correct, the
prophesies begin during the reign of Cheops and run through about 2500 A.D.


I have lots more info about Cayce and Ancient Egypt. Would anyone care for
more of this?

mike
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!tcdcs!maths.tcd.ie!bosullvn
From: [e-mail] (Bryan Neil O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 92 12:04:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
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Organisation: Faulty Logic & Incomplete Proof Society

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Since this book is not going to be seen in any Christian owned book stores I
>have decided to post this information on the net.  Although I am sure the
>Christian minds will snap shut like a bear trap.  This book will shed a lot of
>light to those who have been negatively influenced by religion.  As well as
>showing why this planet has not gone very far under the reptilian gods of
>religion.  Oh, btw the Vatican? knows all about this.  They assinated a pope
>who was going to spill the beans.
>Don Showen

Are you serious, as well as semi-literate?

>Flying Serpents And Dragons
>The Story of Mankind's Reptilian Past

Pah! Off to a bad start.

>The evidence that we are the children of Ancient Astronauts and Serpent-Gods

Get a grip, man.

>WERE ADAM AND EVE HUMAN?

No; they only existed in a metaphorical sense. Anyway, everyone knows
that Adam and Eve, translated into modern English, is Mork and Mindy.

>The Old Testament account of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is an
>abbreviated version of what actually happened. The real story has been changed
>through a long tradition of selection and revision. The ancient Scriptures
>which were ignored give us a different story.

>For example, according to the Haggadah, the source of Jewish legend and oral
>tradition, the following happened after they ate of the forbidden fruit:

>The first result was that Adam and Eve became naked. Before, their bodies had
>been overlaid with a horny skin, and enveloped with the cloud of glory. No
>sooner had they violated the (command given them than the cloud of glory and
>the horny in dropped from them, and they stood there in their nakedness and
>ashamed.

What? I'm not surprised that Christians might have a problem with this,
because even Christians know pure crap when they see it some of the
time.

>The Gnostics who were expelled from the Church by the early Christians and
>their writings expunged have their version of the same incident:

>Now Eve believed the words of the serpent. She looked at the tree. She took
>some of its fruit and ate, and she gave to her husand also, and he ate too.
>Then their mind opened. For when they ate, the light of knowledge shone for
>them; they knew they were naked with regard to knowledge. When they saw their
>makers, they loathed them since they were beastly forms. They understood very
>much.

This is exactly what's said in the Old Testament, if my mind functions
rightly. Whatever Gnostics you refer to were plagiarists.

>It thus appears that if Man was created in the image of God, there can, only
>be one conclusion - Adam and his God were reptilian  forms!

>World-wide legends refer to giant flying lizards and dragons which came to
>this planet and founded the ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia, Egypt,
>India, and China. Who were these alien reptilian creatures?

>FLYING SERPENTS AND DRAGONS provides the answers and solves many of the
>mysteries of ancient history, such as:

>  What is the real meaning of the "missing link?"   Where was the ancient
>paradise land of Dilmun located?   What was the role of the gigantic stone
>platform at Baalbek, in Lebanon?   What were the "crystals" dragons supposedly
>fought over?   What actually where the ancient "boats of heaven" of Egypt and
>the "sky chariots" of the Bible?   How did the ancients communicate with each
>other?   What is the origin of the legend of the Phoenix Bird?

This is so bloody ignorant and stupid in its ideas, it should be
confined to alt.religion.newage, where the kooks and weirdos can decide
whether to buy this, as it might tell them something about the Age of
Aquarius, or some such nonsense.

> This is a first-class detective story. A truly original work  of scholarly
>research. It deals a shattering blow to all our preconceived notions about our
>past and origins.

I hate using language like this in a UseNet posting, but you are full of
sh*t, and bullsh*t like this deserves no place in a semi-intelligent
newgroup like this. Your ignorance and stupidity in believing this awes
me.

>Mr. Boulay has devoted a lifetime to solving the  puzzles of ancient history..
>A cryptologist by  profession, he retired from he U.S. Government where  he
>served in various analyti al capacities for thirty  years. This book is the
>culmination of a dozen years  of research.

A dozen years of fantasising, you mean.

>Please remit $15.95 plus $2.00 for postage  and handling. For US customer
>only. Foreign  orders please write for costs.

"Please submit your brain in the post, and we'll decide what you can
think."

    -- Bryan

--
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Bent, _The Second Law_ | This mind intentionally left blank.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!sunee!praetzel
From: [e-mail] (Eric Praetzel)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 92 13:07:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 4

If you check out the recent issue of Analog (Science Fiction / Science Fact)
you will see an add proporting to know all about how the ships were
rendered invisable.  They wanted something like $40 US sent to a Canadian
PO on the west coast.  Any takers?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tellab5!news
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re^3 ET phone home...
Keywords: For those of you who don't read sci.astro...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 92 14:55:12 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Trough and Brew
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Nntp-Posting-Host: sunce

Begin quoted article:

Newsgroups: sci.astro
From: [e-mail]
Subject: ET Phone Home
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1992 16:16:10 GMT

I'm afraid this story has gotten rather distorted.

There is in fact a SETI Detection Protocol, and as one of the scientists
involved in SETI, let me assure you that I strongly support it. However,
the partial information provided and speculated upon here is by no means the
whole story. I do not have a computer-readable version of the protocol to
post here for you, and it has gone thru several revisions in any case.

The primary purpose of the protocol (in my opinion) is to prevent false alarms.
It is terribly damaging to science in general to have false alarms about
any new discovery. It is far more important to publicize CORRECT information
thru normal scientific channels than to make hurried announcements in the
mass media, particularly when they are of great importance and hence will
be subject to great media hype.

The protocol says that if I discover something I think is ET, the first thing I
will do is make darn sure my equipment is working right, that there has been
no hoax by my staff or others etc. Then I will contact my colleagues at
other observatories and ask them to check it out with their equipment, to
make doubly sure this is not some fluke of equipment. Is this not just
common sense?

Once we collectively agree that there is really something there, the most
critical thing is to learn more about it as quickly as possible. What
if it were to turn off, never to be heard from again? Hence we must get
all possible observatories to monitor and record the signal as quickly
as possible. This means the announcement must be sent out via such
means as the Smithsonian telegrams, etc. to reach the scientific
community. At that stage it is irrelevant and in fact harmful to notify the
mass media because they will just swamp all involved scientists with
inquiries and in fact get in the way and divert effort from the important
issue of studying the signal.

Then when we collectively have a better understanding of what is really
going on with the signal, and proper monitoring is in place, it is time
to publish the results in the scientific literature and to make a public
announcement.

There is no beaurocracy or compulsion implied anywhere here. I could of course
make any announcement I want to at any time. But as a scientist I will not
do so, and I don't believe any serious SETI scientist will either.

In fact, the protocol ensures that the announcement WILL be made, and that
it will not be suppressed by some military or other agency who might think
the discovery has strategic value and hence must be classified. Any agency
or person who would want to exercise such censorship must now speak out
publically against the protocol, or else any individual involved in SETI
can cite the protocol in any action that might be later taken against them
by their superior for following the protocol.


But there is a deeper meaning to the protocol that is unstated. It means
that the scientific and political worlds (including the United Nations)
have at last taken the possibility of life outside the Earth sufficiently
seriously that they are doing something about it. The mere existence of
the protocol document, and its wide adoption, means that our civilization
has reached another milestone in its maturity from a fragmented collection
of countries toward a global entity able to look outward rather than
inward.


                                      Bob Dixon
                                      Director, SETI Program
                                      Ohio State University

End quoted article.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!menudo.uh.edu!judy.uh.edu!st1el
From: [e-mail] (Jensen, Douglas J.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic reality check (was Re: Helen)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 92 16:54:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Houston
Lines: 27
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Nntp-Posting-Host: judy.uh.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes...

[stuff deleted]

>    Ah, but I can detect a speaking voice through modalities other than
>seeing. However, if I have ears blocked and you claim that a voice is
>speaking to me, yet ALL other sensors show that there IS NO VOICE, then
>I don't need to unblock my ears; a voice would have shown its presence in
>those other ways. I have already proven you wrong in that case.

Could you please tell me then, how, temporarily deaf, you could tell in a
classroom (empty, of course), if a voice was coming over the loudspeaker?

[more stuff deleted]

>    If you can't SHOW it to me, in some form or other, then it can't
>be REALITY; it can only be an opinion or a philosophy that has no more
>validity than a billion others... and consequently little utility.

Einstein seemed to do a good job of proving relativity without actually
demonstrating it....  Just an equation and a theory or two or more.

[yet more stuff deleted]

Peace,

---Doug
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!mtu.edu!maxwell2.ee.mtu.edu!hakatch
From: [e-mail] (HOWARD A KATCH)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 92 18:32:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (HOWARD A KATCH)
Organization: Michigan Technological University
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3926 talk.religion.newage:8526 sci.skeptic:19512

I am getting tired of reading about the Hagadah telling about the story of Adam and Eve. The Hagadah is book that is read every passover about the story of god leading the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt and out of bondage. For your kind information, this same story can be found in your christian bible in the book of Exodus.

I know you are not the first person in this news group to write this untruth. But I do hope you do a little research for yourself before presenting something as fact.

Sincerely,

Howard A. Katch
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Why would gov't hide info.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 92 22:40:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 38

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott A. Yanoff) writes:
>>
>>Why would the U.S. government hide info regarding UFOs from the public?
>>
>>What would they gain?
>>
>>Secondly, how would they hide this info, without people hearing the truth from
>>other goverments around the world?
>>
>>--
>>   !\   /\   _/\_  [e-mail]
>>  _! ! !  ! !_  _!
>> ! ! !_!_ ! !    !___    MILWAUKEE,
>> ! ! !   !!_!    !   !_   WISCONSIN
>
>On the other hand...why would the Govt hide the truth regarding CIA
>activities in the Nugan Hand bank, or Tell Bo Gritz "there ain't no
>MIA's in Laos/Cambodia", or October Surprise..why would the Justice
>Dept impede the BCCI investigation for months..or which mechanic was
>hired to kill Danny Cassolaro?
>


Food for your paranoid:

      You really don't know about this things the government has been
      successful in hiding from you.


Just a happy thought.

      Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism,alt.magick
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 92 23:28:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 112
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:19530 alt.paranormal:4145 alt.alien.visitors:3928 talk.religion.newage:8529 alt.satanism:342 alt.magick:2370

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (RICHH) writes:
>
>     I want answers this time!  ANSWERS!!
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Man, all this time I thought I was the only one. Now it can be told, I too
have experienced this phenomena -- and many others -- in the comfort of
my own home. The twist-tie things is especially gruesome, and happens
all the time. Im mean, bread, garbage, like food all over when it happens.

Personally, Im sick and tired of hearing about crystals, negative energy
fields, channeling, ancient egyptian men's clubs, its all too much. Get
with the EIGHTIES people. Jimmy and Janice are DEAD AND BURIED. That
drummer from Led Zepplin died too, and so did Henry Fonda.

I want a NINETIES explanation for the fantastic things that happen in my
everyday life:

    o You are in a grocery store. Eleven check out aisles are open with
      NOBODY but the checkout guy standing there counting his nose over and
      over. You think," lemme just get another pack of cream cheese". But
      in the 92 seconds it takes you to to the dairy counter and back
      TWO THOUSAND SHOPPERS HAVE SIMULTANEOUSLY DECIDED TO CHECK OUT.

    o You are  watching the climax of a great TV show. Ten seconds
      before you discover who did it to who with what YOUR MOTHER CALLS
      to REMIND YOU TO SEND YOUR GRANDMOTHER A BIRTHDAY CARD -- SIX MONTHS
      FROM NOW.

    o You are taking hang-gliding lessons and are about to do your first
      solo landing in a twenty-five ACRE field of soft, freshly mowed,
      Kentucky Blue Grass. In this twenty-five acre field is a single
      sliver birch sapling, ten feet tall. Instead of going around, over
      or behind the sapling, YOU CRASH RIGHT INTO THE ONLY STANDING OBJECT
      FOR MILES BREAKING YOUR NOSE.

    o You are sound asleep in your bedroom. Suddenly you are awakened
      by a bright light in your eyes. YOU ARE ABDUCTED BY ALIENS AND
      ARE USED AS THE CONTROL HAMSTER IN AN EXPERIMENT OF GALACTIC PROPORTION.


  Please explain these. Do not use the words: channeling, crystals, energy
field, Philadelphia-Experiment, Scientology, New Age, AIDS drugs or
the name Garth-Wanderer in your essay.

  Lets face it, we are all biological machines designed to allow the true
master to survive the generation. I am a slave to my DNA. So are you.
Face facts and get on with the whipped cream and beer party.



>     I used to be a non-believer.  Crystals, Ramtha, magic
>pyramids, Nostradamus, crop circles, self-fellatio:  to all these
>I would say, "Bah, bunk!."  But lately, irrefutable evidence of the
>paranormal has been creeping into my daily life.  So attention all
>ye naysayers:  read on and BELIEVE!!!!!!!!
>
>1.  There was this song going through my head.  A song they never,


[deleted stuff]

>RICHH


   I believe too. The Cowsills were the agents of the anti-Christ and the
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles sculpted the Venus d'Milo with claws so they
hacked them off, leaving what you see in the Lourve today.

   Get real folks.  We've all been watching a little too much Oprah, haven't
we? A little too much "Sons of cousins of women who abuse Karo Syrup" and
"Teenage Porn Stars who write for Scholastic Weekly and the parents that
let them do it."  Are our minds really that fried? Do we need to resort
to needless innuendo and mindless video hooliganism to remind ourselves
how much we enjoy our lives (because everyone else is much worse off -- I saw
it on Sally Jesse Rapheal -- the other Ninja Turtle).

  Many unexplained mysteries of life have a simple, rational explanation
that is hard to find. So, like, ok, we still dont know if people have
fused the hydrogen atom in a pickle jar, but so, ok. Things will always be
like that. What I cant fathom is how the bulk of our human species is
completely willing to trade in their God-Given brain for a bag of
potato chips and a Toshiba Infared Universal TV Remote Control.

  Here's a hint. Your brain is better than sex.

  In the immortal words of the venerable sage that occupies the Veep Slot
of our great nation -- that bastion of revered wisdom -- Dan Quayle,

   "Losing your mind is a horrible thing. Not having one in the first place
is pretty bad too"


    Dan knows America. He knows what couch potatos want.

   "In my book you are all Happy Campers. Happy Campers you are, Happy
Campers you were, and Happy Campers you will always be."

    And you will. Keep believing without question. But remember,

    Blind belief and refusal to engage even a modest intellect is no
    defense. At least, it wasnt at Nuremberg.



    Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 00:04:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 81
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:4147 alt.alien.visitors:3929

And now, some drama.

This is true. Really. I have witnesses. You can ask them about it too. All
of them are grown-up now, or are grand parents. For a long time, the other
ones, like me, denied we saw what we saw. Frankly, I felt really stupid
listening to myself. So, I simply said, "Yeah sure. I didnt see anything."
I never thought I would say something like that. Ive seen characters in
the movies deny seeing what I the hapless viewer have seen. I have felt
those characters were lousy, integrity-less, liers. Wow, then I was one too.

Here it is.


IN 1973 SkyLab hadn't crashed into Australia, the Pacific, and Central
Kiribati yet. It was circling the earth full of human scientists. If you're
old enough, you remember that SkyLab was this can about the size of three
or four really big Winnebagos, covered in yellow aluminum foil and sporting
two solar panel wings (one of them busted). There also was this neat foil
umbrella they put up as well. It didnt say, "Cinzano" on it. (I always thought
that would have been a nice touch.)

 Anyway, SkyLab was in this low, really eccentric, orbit. It covered a lot
of the earth's surface. This was so the scientists inside could study the
earth and take close-up pictures of the Kremlin. (We didnt like the Russians
back then.) At night you could see SkyLab from the ground. All that yellow
aluminum foil reflected the sun really well. SkyLab was a really bright,
really big gold blob of light seen on a clear winter night in the Chicago
suburbs.

Which is where I was when I saw it. We heard on the five o'clock news that
at a particular time you could go out and see SkyLab come overhead. So, my
Dad, my brother, and I stood out on the front lawn at the time prescribed
by John Colman, the TV weatherman. Mom and my sisters werent interested in
going out in the cold, so they stayed inside and watched Rodney Allen Ripey.

Sure enough, at the right time, this really bright light blob started at
one horizon and proceeded to move leisurely overhead. I had never seen
an object in orbit before. I was amazed at how fast it went. When it was
at our zenith, something weird happened.

It was a clear night. There were a lot of stars out. When SkyLab got
right over our house, one of the stars came unglued from the cosmos.
A pinpoint of white star light moved in a "Z" from where it sat to where
SkyLab was. It moved much faster than Skylab. Had it been summer, I would
have thought it was a fly reflected in a streetlamp. But it was much too
far away, and there were no lights shining over our house.

When you look at the stars, you feel as if you are watching a movie. The
universe is too deep for our eyes. We pretend the sky is a flat screen with
moving lights projected on it.. This little light didnt follow the rules of the
screen.

Without looking away, my Dad said, "Did you boys see that?"

"Uh-huh," my brother and I said, eyes glued to the sky.

"What do you think that was?" said Dad.

"I dunno." I said. My brother was silent, waiting for it to come back. Which
it didnt.

"You saw your first UFO." said Dad.

"My first UFO? First? Do you see these all the time?" I asked.

"Ask your mother."

 Neither none of us spoke of the incident until this Christmas, some twenty
years later. See, lots of bad dreams happened after that. But those
are all ethereal conjecture, and I wouldnt want to get into that.

 Happy Campers, one and all.


  Joe

--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!yale.edu!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: RICHH: THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 01:30:35 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
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Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:8531 alt.alien.visitors:3930 sci.skeptic:19536

Joe Mastoianni wants 90's answers for the following:

o  grocery lines all of a sudden...


   Energy attracts energy.

o  birthday card and annoying phone call:

   the negative in your sub-conscious gets kicks out of doing
   this sort of thing to you...'inspiring' mom to call you
   9a sadistic delight?)

o  Hand gliding and breaking nose into only tree around:

   The tree loved you and wanted to give you a smooch.  You just
   didn't quite understand its' love energy.

o  Aliens using you as your hamster experiment:

   Well, they gatta use somebody, right?  You were handy...

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!jlpicard
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: firsthand experience
Keywords: true
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 92 15:56:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 15

...
>              I will post more of my experiences in the 'hotel' if
> anyone is interested.                                   -dave
>

Please do.

An interesting story, especially since it is rather different than
the "stereotypical" UFO abduction tale.

Craig
-- "Democracy is the theory that  Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  the common people know what         Internet: [e-mail] --
--  they want, and deserve to get     Austin: [e-mail] --
--  it good and hard" - H. L. Mencken               VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic reality check (was Re: Helen)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 05:38:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 38

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jensen, Douglas J.) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes...
>>    Ah, but I can detect a speaking voice through modalities other than
>>seeing. However, if I have ears blocked and you claim that a voice is
>>speaking to me, yet ALL other sensors show that there IS NO VOICE, then
>>I don't need to unblock my ears; a voice would have shown its presence in
>>those other ways. I have already proven you wrong in that case.
>
>Could you please tell me then, how, temporarily deaf, you could tell in a
>classroom (empty, of course), if a voice was coming over the loudspeaker?

    In a number of ways. There are many instruments which can show
that there are vibrations in the air; or I might measure the voltages on
the loudspeaker. Or even just put my fingers on the speaker and feel the
movement of the magnet.
    By the same token, any energy beings or other "things" which could
affect anything in this world would leave traces that would be measurable
by some device or devices of our own.

>>    If you can't SHOW it to me, in some form or other, then it can't
>>be REALITY; it can only be an opinion or a philosophy that has no more
>>validity than a billion others... and consequently little utility.
>Einstein seemed to do a good job of proving relativity without actually
>demonstrating it....  Just an equation and a theory or two or more.


    Einstein did not prove relativity. In fact, it is still only a
theory (though one with a GREAT deal of support). What he DID do was
derive it from some small indications in previous literature. He was
able to see the pattern in the small deviations that others had
disregarded, and could then tie them into a coherent whole. It turned
out that he had done a very good job of describing a system that could
explain many functions of the real world better than the prior (Newtonian)
system.

                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!umn.edu!ux.acs.umn.edu!csd1227
From: [e-mail] (Csd1227)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re^3 ET phone home...
Keywords: For those of you who don't read sci.astro...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 05:59:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 15

As much as I believe Bob Dixon to be a sincere, well-intentioned scientist
with the SETI Program, there are a few things that puzzle me.  One is
that no mention is made of which and how many 'colleagues' are informed
when a discovery is made.  Does this include groups from other nations?
I'm not at all convinced that a secret organization will do everything it can
to intercept the information before it is passed on to other scientists.
If the discovery is significant, I believe that secret agents will stop
at nothing to contain it at an early stage.   Also, why is the program
so poorly funded?  If people really expect to find something out there,
you'd think that there would be a bigger investment.  Perhaps the answer
is that there is already a far more elaborate system installed, that they
are probably going to make discoveries before the university community, and
that will have their electronic jamming equipment tuned and ready to
go when the university scientists catch up.   Just perhaps -- but not
too far-fetched.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!mlb.semi.harris.com!rtfm.mlb.fl.us!john
From: [e-mail] (John Blasik)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 06:20:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: We don't need no stinkin' batches!
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Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:4150 alt.alien.visitors:3934 talk.religion.newage:8535

[e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni) writes:

    o You are in a grocery store. Eleven check out aisles are open with
      NOBODY but the checkout guy standing there counting his nose over and
      over. You think," lemme just get another pack of cream cheese". But
      in the 92 seconds it takes you to to the dairy counter and back
      TWO THOUSAND SHOPPERS HAVE SIMULTANEOUSLY DECIDED TO CHECK OUT.

Read the book!

    o You are  watching the climax of a great TV show. Ten seconds
      before you discover who did it to who with what YOUR MOTHER CALLS
      to REMIND YOU TO SEND YOUR GRANDMOTHER A BIRTHDAY CARD -- SIX MONTHS
      FROM NOW.

Read the book!

    o You are taking hang-gliding lessons and are about to do your first
      solo landing in a twenty-five ACRE field of soft, freshly mowed,
      Kentucky Blue Grass. In this twenty-five acre field is a single
      sliver birch sapling, ten feet tall. Instead of going around, over
      or behind the sapling, YOU CRASH RIGHT INTO THE ONLY STANDING OBJECT
      FOR MILES BREAKING YOUR NOSE.

Read the book!

    o You are sound asleep in your bedroom. Suddenly you are awakened
      by a bright light in your eyes. YOU ARE ABDUCTED BY ALIENS AND
      ARE USED AS THE CONTROL HAMSTER IN AN EXPERIMENT OF GALACTIC PROPORTION.

READ THE BOOK!


-- john
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Green Meteors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 92 21:07:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 46


 >         While driving to St Louis early Sat morning, I watched a
 >         green meteor in the southern sky. It was just a regular
 >         one and all, except that it was green. This reminded me
 >         of the tales my father had of two particular ones he had
 >         seen.
 >
 >         In addition to regular green meteors he had seen, two others
 >         were something special, and he always communicated a sense of
 >         awe when relating the stories. One in particular (in the 50's)
 >         was so slow moving and so long lasting that he was sure it
 >         was not a meteor. It was also seen across the continent by many
 >         people. I think it was this that led him to want to attend the
 >         KC UFO club meetings in the early sixties.
 >
 >         I don't recall the theories he had or had heard about these
 >         or the details that made people think they were not meteors.
 >
 >         Can someone tell me more about the reasons people did (and
 >         still do?) place emphasis on these slow-moving celestial
 >         events?

Although it was never resolved, Project Twinkle was launched to attempt to
determine what the green fireballs were that were sighted over New Mexico in
the late 40s.  Dr. Lincoln LaPaz, a leading expert on meteorites, headed the
Air Force project.  The mystery about them was particularly the numbers of
them being reported, and the fact that they were being seen predominantly in
New Mexico, home of some of the most sensitive military projects.  They also
displayed strange behavior such as flying low on the horizon on a horizontal
course.  Normally, meteors travel on an arc which brings them down to the
ground.  According to LaPaz, "...the green fireballs were not meteors or
meteorites.  His argument was derived from the facts that he had gained after
many days of research and working with Air Force intelligence teams.  He stuck
to the points that (1) the trajectory was too flat, (2) the color was too
green, and (3) he couldn't locate any fragments even though he had found the
spots where they should have hit the earth if they were meteorites."

Excerpted from 'The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects,' by Edward J.
Ruppelt, page 51.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 09:41:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3936 talk.religion.newage:8537 sci.skeptic:19551

Brain says
>        You know, I'm as much impressed wth the fact that he actually felt
>this book was worth 91 lines of typing as I am by the sheer brain-twisting
>gibberish of its content.

Gee, Brian I have to confess I only typed the first paragraph.  I scanned the rest
from the front page and back cover of the book.  Actually I don't even plan on reading
the book because I already know religions were started by reptials with the purpose
of keeping humanity in fear and chaos so they can feed on the negative energy. It
was just interesting to see a earth human writing about it.
Don showen
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!wotan.compaq.com!hackney
From: [e-mail] (Greg Hackney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 14:52:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Compaq
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:

> In all the versions I've heard, except one mentioned briefly in Moore &
> Berlitz's book, it was the destroyer escort "Eldridge".
> The Eldridge was sold to Greece
> I think it's still in service.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:

> According to the 1990/1991 Combat Fleets, Greek Navy frigate D67
> "Panthir" is ex-Eldridge DE 173. Transfered from US navy to Greece
> in 1951, still in service at this time though "thoroughly obsolete".
> It's one of four ships in it's class, along with D01 Aetos (ex-Ebert
> DE 768), D31 Hierax (ex-Slater, DE 766), D54 Leon (ex-Garfield Thomas,
> DE 193).

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric "JUICE" Fritzius) writes:

> almost all material on the Eldridge was classified
> and as far as I know remains so to this day.

Was the USS Eldridge pre-maturely dry docked for a ship of it's class
and age, say in comparison to it's other 3 classmates? Was it sold
as an individual ship or a package sale of a class of ships.

Was the ship indeed declared off limits and top secret in it's dry docked state.

Were the names of the crew members of the Eldridge top secret, and are they
still so? If so, is this a standard practice for ships of this class and age?

Were there any reports of a loss of crew memebers in action? How many of the
original crew members are still alive to talk about it.

How about the names and status of the crew members of the alleged
observation ship (the Idaho?) ? Also still secret ?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!cynic!arkham!jaguar
From: [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.satanism
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 11:36:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Chez Cthulhu [phone]  "Caterers to the Elder Gods"
Lines: 32
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:19557 alt.paranormal:4153 alt.alien.visitors:3938 talk.religion.newage:8539 alt.satanism:346

[e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:

> All,
> This EXACT same message was posted to the bboard several months ago.
> A number of people informed me, by private email, that the poster had
> his tongue firmly planted in his cheek...
>
> --
> Gerry Roston ([e-mail]) | I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and
> Field Robotics Center,          | punishes his creatures, or has a will of
> Carnegie Mellon University      | the type of which we are conscious in
> Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | ourselves.  An individual who should
> [phone]                  | survive his physical death is also beyond
>                                 | my comprehension,...; such notions are for
> The opinions expressed are mine | the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls.
> and do not reflect the official | Albert Einstein
> position of CMU, FRC, RedZone,  |
> or any other organization.      |

That was fairly obvious from the "twist-tie" example, wasn't it?

Jeremy "If sarcasm was posted on the Net, would anyone notice?" Reimer

    /\     FUSCHAL: THE PROMISED LAND. Where those who have faith shall wear
>==/  \==> hats of great majesty, yea, though they be made of cardboard and
  /____\   have humourous arrows through them. (Red Dwarf)
                     .----------------------------------. Sunny Vancouver BC
Jeremy Reimer, aka   [ => [e-mail] <= ] CANADA, where it's
The Jaguar! The Car, `----------------------------------' fun, fun, fun...
the Cat, the Lunatic  George: What time is it?            ^^^  ^^^  ^^^
--------------------  Edmund: Three o'clock in the afternoon, Your Highness.
PININ FOR THE FJORDS  George: Oh thank GOD for that I thought I'd overslept!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 17:19:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 52
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3939 talk.religion.newage:8541 sci.skeptic:19564

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bryan Neil O'Sullivan) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>Since this book is not going to be seen in any Christian owned book stores I
>>have decided to post this information on the net.  Although I am sure the
>>Christian minds will snap shut like a bear trap.  This book will shed a lot of
>>light to those who have been negatively influenced by religion.  As well as
>>showing why this planet has not gone very far under the reptilian gods of
>>religion.  Oh, btw the Vatican? knows all about this.  They assinated a pope
>>who was going to spill the beans.
>>Don Showen
>
>Are you serious, as well as semi-literate?
>
>>Flying Serpents And Dragons
>>The Story of Mankind's Reptilian Past

[Tons and tons of dialog removed]

I read a book called, "The Brain". It was written by a brain doctor named
Restak (spelling optional). Its a very interesting book for people interested
in the human brain. If you are interested in brains, I recommend this
book. You will like it, but only if you want to know something about the
brain.

I am told most humans (living) have a brain. Dr. Restak analyses the
architecture of the brain in terms of evolutionary stages. In fact,
you can look at other creatures with brains who may have branched from
the same evolutionary tree as humans, and see similarities. At the
very middle of the brain, at the top of the brain stem, is a structure (whose
name I cant remember at the moment). Restak says that structure is
reptilian in nature. He claims that the extremely basal "Fight or Flee"
response to a threat comes from that place. People who have damaged
that part of their brain are sometimes extremely violent sociopaths. Maybe
there is a human reptilian heritage.

On the other hand, if you believe the Catholic Church actually killed a pope
for suppressing the fact we evolved from Dino-dragons, I have a place
for you to call. There are a lot of couch potato daytime TV watchers who
would love to see you tell your story to Geraldo. Please go to Geraldo.

Im sure he would love to talk to you. Just dont get on a show where there
are any Nazi daughters of criminal milkmen. They may want to hit you with
a chair.

Joe

--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!tulane!rouge!pgf
From: [e-mail] (Phil G. Fraering)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Helen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 16:48:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Anonymous NNTP Posting)
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 31

[e-mail] (Mike Kirkpatrick) writes:

>>Ps...Any one out there into Egypt?
>>----------
>Yes. I've read alot about Egypt, and studied heiroglyphics a bit.
>Edgar Cayce discussed Ancient Egypt and talked about the time of the mass
>influx of Atlanteans into Egypt just before, during, and after the Flood.
>He put the date of the flood at 10,500 B.C.(if I remember correctly), and
>said that the Great Pyramid at Giza was built at that time. Yes, I know,
>Cheops is supposed to have built it. No proof of this really exist though.
>It is claimed that the Great Pyramid is a prophetic device and there have
>been a few books written on this subject. My favorite on this subject is
>"The Pyramid Decoded". Sorry I can't recall the author but will get it and
>post if anyone is interested. If the author's theories are correct, the
>prophesies begin during the reign of Cheops and run through about 2500 A.D.


>I have lots more info about Cayce and Ancient Egypt. Would anyone care for
>more of this?

>mike

I would like to say right off that Tolkien's version of this was much
much much better fiction than the stuff I'm seeing summarized here.
I'd rather believe it than this drivel.
--
Phil Fraering [e-mail] -or- @suze.ucs.usl.edu -or-
[e-mail] -or- [e-mail] MiniDisclaimer: I haven't
figured out yet which of these addresses works.////Disclaimer: Some
reasonably forseeable events may exceed this message's capability to
protect from severe injury, death, systems failure, and astr23ws#@$%
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewsh!cbnewsh!wcs
From: [e-mail] (Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack
Subject: Re: INFO: How To Build a UFO Detector
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 18:51:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs)
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: New Jersey Re-Education Facility for the Differently Clued
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3941 alt.slack:2111
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 6 Jan 92 07: 22:14 GMT


   In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott D. Young) writes:

   >   BTW, why do UFO's have intense magnetic fields?  I must have missed that
   >   part.

Well, most of them were built before the FCC Class B rules came out,
so the shielding around the warp drives isn't very good.
Some of the newer models can go pretty fast, though,
and the sleek flat-black neutronium ones with the infrapink logos
can impress everybody while still meeting the California emissions standards.
--
                Pray for peace;      Bill
#Bill Stewart [phone] erebus.att.com!wcs AT&T Bell Labs 4M312 Holmdel NJ
      "Noriega was an alcoholic, a drug dealer and otherwise scum"
         "How do you know?"  "Well, he was on our payroll."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!gossip.pyramid.com!pyramid!nsc!amdahl!rtech!ingres!kevinq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.magick,alt.satanism
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 19:41:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:8548 sci.skeptic:19579 alt.alien.visitors:3942 alt.paranormal:4159 alt.magick:2378 alt.satanism:347

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>All,
>This EXACT same message was posted to the bboard several months ago.
>A number of people informed me, by private email, that the poster had
>his tongue firmly planted in his cheek...

Of *course* he did, Gerry!

I'm sure, however, he was as amused as I by all those 'soft thinkers' who
took him oh, soooo seriously.


kbq
Sirian High Comm  ah shit, my delete key doesn't work we'll have to kill
them all now how do I end this oh!

--
Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]
                                    | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com
My opinions are my own.  Should you think otherwise, think again.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!ucbvax!mtxinu!rtech!ingres!kevinq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Question
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 19:55:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nick Palombo) writes:
>
>   I was just thinking about those sightings aroung Gulf Breeze FL. From what
>I understand that's near Pensacola Fl, right? Well, there's a Naval Air
>station there. Does anyone think it just might be something the Navy is
>flying?

OK, now you've done it!  You know what the penalty for disclosing Top Secret
Ultra info is, right?  Report immediately to your nearest National Enquirer
office for termination with extreme prejudice!

Wait! You _didn't_ *know* that the NE was a front for the world government/
alien/blonds_don't_like_blonde_jokes_because_they_con't_understand_them
conspiricy?  Well, too bad!  That's no excuse!  Off with your head!


kbq

--
Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]
                                    | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com
My opinions are my own.  Should you think otherwise, think again.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!caen!sdd.hp.com!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:    Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 19:34:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Praetzel) writes:
>If you check out the recent issue of Analog (Science Fiction / Science Fact)
>you will see an add proporting to know all about how the ships were
>rendered invisable.  They wanted something like $40 US sent to a Canadian
>PO on the west coast.  Any takers?

Not at that price, particularly not without knowing more about the person
offering it.  I mean, is he just speculating, or has he carried out
experiments, or does he actually *know* the original information, or what?

Is the person's name given, or is it a company name, or just a box number?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!mel.dit.csiro.au!mineng.dmpe.CSIRO.AU!dmssyd.syd.dms.CSIRO.AU!metro!usage!csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au!89u9370
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Elvis is ALIVE!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 92 14:23:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New South Wales
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> ///////////////////////////////News Flash/////////////////////////////
>
> Elvis is alive and back in Memphis, TN!
>
>    A reliable source spotted and talked with The King yesterday--less than a
> block from the former (& to some present) superstar of rock&roll.  When
> questioned, Mr. Presley said he just couldn't bear being in the tropics when
> his birthday celebration was going on at Graceland.  The King said, "I just
> couldn't stand being away from my little girl, Lisa Marie, so I put on my blue
> suede shoes and scooted on up here to take care of business...baby!"
>
>    If anyone hears more news from Elvis, please post a message!!!

Did he also mention that he has been to Alpha Centauri as well!

I had lunch with him yesterday in ET's cafe, just left from pluto...

hahahah...

L8r dudes....
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!verifone.com!ron_s
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: An alien down home encounter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Jan 92 02:26:43 GMT
Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI
Lines: 34


   When I returned home from work yesterday there was an orange,
scaly alien sitting on my couch. His space ship was hovering just
outside, whirring almost inaudibly.  The alien had gray, translucent
eyes, with slit pupils like a cat's, an almost flat nose, and
rather leathery looking lips. His head was quite large, covered by
flat,flexible, rather smooth scales.

   He told me he was bored, and that he was looking for an
"interesting person" - and if I could perhaps direct him to
one.  I asked him what he meant by "interesting", and he replied:
"A person who has an imagination, a person who has not latched onto
some dogma, path to enlightenment, religion, hobo, guru, drug, or
diet, or eternal path of the tao, and still thinks for himself in
such a way that he creates his own future through the sheer force
of his own creative imagination".  I have not found a person like
this in a great while, there seem to be fewer and fewer of them on
the earth. Cruel and crude ways of thinking seem to be on the increase.

   "Who repairs your spaceship?" I asked.  "Oh the nano-assemblers
built into the craft do all that, it keeps itself repaired, I
just drive it around", he answered.   "Are you a male or a female
creature?" I asked.  "I'm a nalga. It takes 3 sexes to procreate.
The other sexes are named rintrah and losgene " he answered.
"Why do you come to the earth?" I asked. "Mainly to hang out
and look for interesting people.  I'm from the planet
Nindem-Thera from the solar system of the star Trinsat, here in
your Milky Way Galaxy."

   " Well, lets see, you might try Rockefeller University, or
south of Market St in San Francisco for interesting folks.
Some folks in Hawaii are interesting too. "

Bye, Bye
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!darwin.sura.net!europa.asd.contel.com!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,alt.alien.visitors,sci.space
Subject: Rainbow Declaration - Humans,Greys and other ET pt2 (LONG)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Jan 92 06:26:12 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 1026
Xref: ns-mx sci.astro:14112 alt.alien.visitors:3947 sci.space:25459



----Rainbow Declaration Part 2 (conclusion)--------------------------



     However, let us suppose that the less advanced power is very
tough  minded  and refuses to be cowed by  the  advanced  powers'
superior  technology.  Let us suppose also that the lesser  power
rejects  as psychological ploys the advanced power's attempts  to
claim  divinity, and that these attempts to attain  psychological
advantages merely harden the will of the less advanced people  to
fight.   In this case, two things could happen: (1) The  advanced
power will withdraw or decide to establish normal and  respectful
diplomatic  ties with the lesser power.  (2) The  advanced  power
may  choose  to  wage  war  on  the  less  advanced  power   when
psychological ploys used alone have failed.  Here the outcome  is
not nearly so predictable as one might imagine.
     War  between technological unequals is probably the norm  in
the  Cosmos  rather than the exception.  However,  as  on  Earth,
technology  is only one of many factors is war.  The factors  are
primarily:

     1.  Relative  numbers of military forces -- does  one  side
         have overwhelming numbers?
     2.  Moral  and  discipline  of the  forces  --  can  it  be
         maintained in the face of losses?
     3.  Length of supply lines -- can a large military effort be
         sustained for long by both sides?
     4.  Political unity of opposing power groups -- can one side
         exploit divisions in the other?
     5.  Technology  -- can the high tech of one side  be  easily
         countered by the low tech of the other?
     6.  Will  -- are the less advanced people  more  willing  to
         resist  than  the  more advanced are  willing  to  press
         attacks?
     7.  Other Powers -- will other powers stay out of the war or
         intervene on one side or another?
     8.  Which  side  chooses the Way --  one  side  or  neither?
         (Reference 18)

     As  was discovered by the United States in Vietnam  and  the
Russians in Afghanistan, technological superiority alone is not a
deciding  factor against adversaries who are  tenacious,  clever,
are willing to die rather than submit, who have high morale,  and
who  confront the advanced power on their home territory.   These
wars   also  showed  the  sensitivity  of  advanced   powers   to
casualties, even when the advanced power may not be known for its
concern for human life, as was the case with Russia.  One Russian
was  quoted  as  saying  "30,000 dead was  one  day's  losses  at
Stalingrad,   but  in  Afghanistan  it  seems  too  much."    The
difference  was  that 30,000 Germans died also and  the  Russians
were  fighting  for  their homes and  lives.   Death  on  foreign
hostile  territory,  far  form home, at the  hands  of  primitive
natives  is  especially grievous to  advanced  peoples,  because,
economically,  a trained member for their society is more  costly
to replace than a member of a more primitive society, especially,
if  he  must  be trained in the use of  high  tech  weaponry  and
transported   great  distances  onboard   expensive   transports.
therefore,  if  a less advanced society can  maintain  ferocious,
long-term resistance against an advanced aggressor operating  far
form  home,  with limited forces, the less  advanced  people  can
triumph.   the  more advanced people will simply  find  they  are
bogged down and taking losses in an unwinnable war far from home,
and they will leave.  In such a triumph, morale and, if possible,
religious  zeal  on  the part of the less advanced  people  is  a
decisive  factor.   I repeat, in a conflict where  a  technically
advanced  power is waging a war of aggression on a less  advanced
power,  the  morale  and  will of the lesser  power  is  what  is
decisive, not technology alone.  Sun Tzu, though he wrote of war,
as  also  a great moralist.  To him a key factor in  war  was  to
follow "the Way." (Reference 18)
.lm5
    "The  Way means humaneness and justice.  In ancient times,  a
    famous minister of state asked a political philosopher  about
    military  matters.   The  philosopher  said,  'Humanness  and
    justice  are the means to govern properly.   When  government
    is carried out properly, people feel close to the  leadership
    and think little of dying for it'."

    He also said: (Reference 19)

    "Those  who  use  arms will cultivate the Way  and  keep  the
    rules.   Thus,  they can govern in such a way as  to  prevail
    over the corrupt."

.lm0
"Those  who  use its superior technology to try and  oppress  and
destroy  less advanced neighbors does not know of the Way.   This
is true on Earth, and I think this is true throughout the Cosmos.
     If a people departs form the Way to oppress their neighbors,
then  neither the brilliance of their technology  and  intellect,
nor  all their clever words can disguise it.  Sadly, this  brings
us to the subject of the present situation regarding humanity and
some of its fellow peoples of the Cosmos and what forty years  of
E.T. contact have taught us.

         FORTY YEARS OF UFOLOGY:  WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED?

     A  goal of this paper was to factor into our view  of  human
destiny  what  we have learned from forty years of  contact  with
E.T.s.   In  particular, what does the HHM do to unravel  for  us
what  is  reported  concerning the  last  forty  years.   Several
observations can be made.
     The  first and primary observation is that, at least on  the
surface everything appears well.  Humanity rules and occasionally
misrules,  the Earth.  No overt signs of E.T. contact  are  seen.
In   the   last  forty  years,  humanity,  itself,   has   become
spacefaring,  advanced  in power, and in some  ways,  has  gained
wisdom.   Except  for a popular preoccupation with  E.T.  contact
fantasies,  no outward sign of E.T. Earth dialogue  is  apparent.
The  second observation is that, like many situations  on  Earth,
much  is  being  concealed.  Concealment is  usually  a  sign  of
conflict.
     Sun Tzu wrote: (Reference 20)
.lm5
    "Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness.   Be
    extremely  mysterious,  even to the point  of  soundlessness.
    Thereby, you can be the directors of the opponent's fate."
.lm0
     The  groups of extraterrestrials who seem to have long  term
interests  here seem to be concealing their true  intentions  and
the governments of Earth are concealing their true posture toward
the extraterrestrials.
     To learn anything form the past forty years of Ufology,  one
must have a method of interpreting both the government's and  the
E.T.s' actions.  We have such a method in the HHM.  What does the
HHM  tell  that we have learned about the past forty  years?   It
tell us the following:

     1.  We  are not in a region of space controlled by  any  one
         E.T. nation; we know this because many species visit us.
     2.  Most E.T.s seem to have adopted a policy of benign  non-
         interference in Earth's affairs.
     3.  Most E.T.s are quite humanoid.
     4.  Three groups seem to be attempting to carry out  a  long
         term activity here.
         (a) Reticulians or "grays" -- A species reportedly  form
             Zeta Reticuli 36 light years form Earth.  (Reference
             16)   These  are  the  short,  big-eyed,  big-headed
             aliens.
         (b) The  Talls -- similar to the Reticulians  but  more
             humanoid, blonde, blue-eyed -- origin unknown.
         (c) Nordics -- very humanoid, Scandinavian appearance --
             star of origin unknown.

         It  must be stated that is is not clear to  what  extent
         these three species' intentions towards Earth coincide.
     5.  Some  E.T.  contact has  been  extremely  positive  and
         strongly suggests that we will one day become a part  of
         some community of cosmic peoples of like beliefs to  our
         own.
     6.  There  does not appear to be  any  Galactic  government
         protecting  primitive  planets  like  Earth  from   E.T.
         contact.
     7.  Some E.T.s appear to be quite hostile to humanity.

     This  last  point  is  an  unpleasant  and  difficult   one.
However,  it merely means the Cosmos is like the Earth,  and  you
live   on  Earth,  so  you  can  deal  with   this   possibility.
Unfortunately,  it appears that the E.T.s with the most  interest
in  Earth  are  also  the most hostile.  How  could  it   be  any
different if humanity is involved?


THE SECRET STAR WARS:  THE REAL TRUTH ABOUT THE LAST FORTY YEARS

     It  is my analysis, based on the HHM, that  the  Reticulians
(or grays) are implacably hostile to humanity.  (figure 1)  As to
the  Reticulian  goal, there can be little doubt, for  they  have
come far, stayed long, suffered great losses, and expended  great
resources, yet they will not reveal it to us.  But, their actions
reveal  their  goal:  to have the Earth  for  their  own.   Their
actions  are not consistent with anything else.   Our  government
apparently  realized  this  at some point in  the  distant  past,
perhaps  as early as 1947.  The government has kept  this  secret
locked up in Dreamland with its captured discs.  It is my  belief
that the fact of Reticulian hostility is the actual great  secret
underlying  the  entire  government  cover-up  concerning   UFOs.
However, this truth can no longer be kept secret; it is  apparent
from both Reticulians' behaviors that are widely known in Ufology
and the government's reactions to them.  I would argue that while
it  may  have been useful to have kept this secret  in  the  past
(that is, the fear engendered by the knowledge of hostile  aliens
might have been more dangerous than the aliens themselves), it is
now  more dangerous to keep it secret, because secrecy is  now  a
hindrance to effective defense.
     Ufology  has withheld judgment for a long period  concerning
the  behavior of the Reticulians. This was justified because,  in
the  past,  data  was scanty and  unreliable.   We  have  avoided
judging the Reticulians' actions by human standards because  they
were  not human, and we like to withhold judgment even on  humans
until we have some basic level of knowledge about them.  We  also
have tended to place less credibility on reports of  Reticulians'
atrocities and hostile acts because they frighten us, and because
they  are  at  odds with our picture of E.T.s as  the  hoped  for
"space brothers,"  the angelic saviors of humanity.  However, the
truth  appears to be that the truly benevolent E.T. nations  want
little  to do with us, and that humanity has only God and  itself
to look to for salvation.
*****************************************************************
Omitted:  "Figure 1."; Text reads: The Hostile Reticulian.   Out
of numbers of people in our cosmic neighborhood, the  Reticulians
have  demonstrated  implacable hostility to humanity.   But  this
hostility is not irrational, we both want the Earth and only  one
can  have  it.  They must be, and will be, opposed by  all  means
necessary.
*****************************************************************
It appears our government has been involved in a Secret Star Wars
with the Reticulians.  This Star War is sometimes cold, sometimes
hot  and has been punctuated by cynical truces and  cease  fires,
but Star War is the best term for it.  Is this government posture
justified; I would argue, yes, absolutely.
     The  time  is  now  ripe for  Ufology  to  make  a  judgment
regarding  the behavior of the Reticulians and their cohorts.   I
give you my judgment: the emperor has no clothes, the Reticulians
and  their crimes are naked.  It is widely and reliably  reported
now that the Reticulians are engaged in horrifying behavior.
     1.  They abduct and terrorize people beginning  often  with
         children.  (Reference 21)
     2.  They mutilate cattle and leave them for their owners  to
         find.  (Reference 22)
     3.  Their breeding program is an abominable  crime  against
         humanity.  (Reference 23)
     4.  They kill people, only whether it is murder 1, 2, or  3,
         is debatable.  (Reference 24)
     5.  They invade our airspace and destroy our warplanes  and
         pilots sent to defend our airspace.  (Reference 25, 26)
     This  pattern  of behavior by the  Reticulians  indicates  a
complete disregard for human rights, life, or dignity.  Some have
said that those are crimes by human standards, but perhaps not by
Reticulian  standards.  I argue that this is Earth, and  humanity
and  its standards rule on Earth, so if they are crimes by  human
standards,  then as far as we are concerned, they are  crimes  by
any   standard.   I  further  argue  that   murder,   mutilation,
abduction,  and  hostile intrusion into a planet's  airspace  are
crimes on any planet.
     The  HHM gives an astonishing and horrifying  interpretation
of Reticulian behavior:

Reticulian Behavior     Human Parallel    Primary Meaning/Purpose

Abduction:              Kidnaping and     Terrorization,
                        Abduction         Domination

Sexual Procedure:       Rape/             Terrorization,
                        Molestation       Domination

Talk in Riddles to      Old Human         Psychological power
to Abductees:           Interrogation     plus maintaining
                        trick             emotional distance from
                                          victim

Tissue Sample:          To "cut"          Demonstrate power
                        someone

Animal/Human            Old human ploy    Terrorization --
Mutilation:                               frustrated expression
                                          of rage

Claims of               Cortez in         Psychological warfare
divinity and to         Mexico and        to induce surrender
have influenced         "I made you
history:                everything
                        you are
                        today"

Desire for Secrecy:     Mafia,            Disguise military
                        Terrorist         weakness
                        groups

     It  is  even reported that the Reticulians have  claimed  to
have invented Jesus Christ.  (Reference 27)  If this is what  the
Reticulians  have  claimed,  it  is  a  contemptible  lie.    The
Reticulians  by  their  actions  have  shown  themselves  to   be
completely  ignorant of Christ's teachings.  Even the  devil  can
quote  scripture, and appear as an angel of  light.   (References
28, 29)  This claim concerning Christ is in my opinion, again,  a
naked attempt to gain psychological domination over humanity.  As
awful  as  such  behavior is, it clearly  indicates  their  utter
disrespect  for  human religious beliefs and is  thus  clearly  a
warning.   For  Christians  this  makes  our  conflict  with  the
Reticulians particularly apparent and mortal.  For it is written.
.lm5
    I John 4:3

    "And  every spirit that confesses not that Jesus  Christ  is
    come  in the flesh is not of God and this is the  spirit  of
    the antichrist..."
.lm0
     To  a Christian, what could be a simpler  decision.   Either
the  Bible  or the Reticulian is lying, and the  Reticulians  are
commonly  reported to be liars about even petty things.   So,  it
would  not  surprise  me if the Reticulians soon  claim  to  have
invented  Moses,  the Ten Commandments, and  the  electric  light
bulb.  Ignore these claims.  Our conflict with the Reticulians is
a  mortal one in that we are dealing with a power that wishes  to
destroy  everything we regard as precious and holy in the  Earth.
In  my  view,  surrender  to  the  Reticulians  is  suicide   and
holocaust; it is unthinkable.
      It is obvious that, when analyzed by HHM, the  Reticulians'
actions have strong parallels in every record of human oppression
and terror.  The Reticulians resemble an Earthly terrorist  state
such  as Iran, Libya, North Korea, or the Mafia.  I  would  argue
that its strongest parallel is Nazi Germany, because of its utter
disregard  for  human values and its  abominable  crimes  against
humanity  seen  in its breeding program.  This  would  mean  that
humanity's  introduction  to  the Cosmos has  actually  become  a
confrontation   with  a  latter  day  Axis  alliance   with   the
Reticulians  playing  Nazi  Germany, and the  Talls  and  Nordics
playing the roles of Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan.  Like  the
Nazis, the Reticulians are bent on conquest.  There can be little
doubt as to their goal: to seize the Earth for themselves.

     This,  I would argue, is the real secret of the  past  forty
years,  not that E.Ts have come to Earth, but that hostile  E.T.s
have  come  to Earth.  In response, the government has  tried  to
lock  this terrible truth away from public awareness.   Like  the
publicly known Star Wars concept, it has a bizarre dual existence
as  the stuff of both tabloid headlines and the blackest  of  the
black programs.
     The  arrival  of this Reticulians Axis has  triggered  every
possible  defensive  action  by our government  and  other  world
governments,  and I think this is justified.  The government  has
particularly made every possible attempt to gain understanding of
Reticulians technology.  It has been reported that the government
has even entered into agreements with the Reticulians and allowed
them sanctuary on some military bases.  Why would a government do
such  a  thing  if  it believed the  Reticulians  were  vile  and
hostile?   They would do it because they must have knowledge,  as
Sun Tzu states: (Reference 30)
.lm5
    "A major military operation is a severe drain on the  nation,
    and  may be kept up for years in the struggle for  one  day's
    victory.   So  to fail to know the  conditions  of  opponents
    because  of  reluctance to give rewards for  intelligence  is
    extremely  inhumane,  uncharacteristic  of  a  true  military
    leader,  uncharacteristic of an assistant of the  government,
    uncharacteristic  of  a  victorious  military  leadership  to
    overcome others and achieve extraordinary accomplishments  is
    foreknowledge.
         Foreknowledge cannot be gotten form ghosts and  spirits,
    cannot be had by analogy, cannot be found out by calculation.
    It  must  be  obtained  from  people,  people  who  know  the
    conditions of the enemy."
.lm0
     So,  our government may have done such things.  This  covert
Star Wars involves espionage and counter espionage, and it is not
pleasing  to look upon.  However, the more vile and  hostile  the
Reticulians, the more necessary such dialogue with them  becomes.
In addition, the government would attempt to keep this  situation
secret  from  its  own people by whatever  means  possible.   The
government,  in a sense, has been trying to preserve  the  "Prime
Directive."   Unfortunately, this has required the government  to
lie  continually  to its people, among other things that  it  has
done.   Our government has, in general, done what governments  do
when  they  are  threatened with war by a  powerful  and  unknown
enemy.   Now,  it is becoming plain that this  situation  can  no
longer be kept secret.
     One  would immediately protest that if the  Reticulians  are
implacably hostile to humanity,  why don't they attack since they
are  so  powerful?   My first response is that many  of  us  have
enemies, but when they attack openly, it is usually a relief; for
the  most  part,  treachery  and intimidation  are  the  rule  in
conflicts between individuals and nations.  My second response is
that humanity has enormous military power on Earth's surface  and
in  its atmosphere, and the Reticulians are a space  power,  with
few forces available and far from home; so they are powerful  but
so are we.  They are more advanced, but they are not as  powerful
as  they want us to think.  My third response is that the  Cosmos
is  probably a complicated place, and these  complications  place
constraints  on  Reticulian actions just as  they  constrain  the
actions of Earth nations.
     What  can be done about this situation?  I would argue  that
much  can  be done and this situation is  neither  hopeless,  nor
beyond  us in Ufology from making a contribution.   However,  one
must not avoid the impact of this realization -- that humanity is
probably confronted with a powerful and merciless enemy.

           GOD, GUTS, AND GUNS AGAINST THE RETICULIANS

     For  me, the impact of the Secret Star Wars, the concept  of
the  Reticulians  as implacable enemies of humanity  and  of  our
government, brought me closer to God.  However, I went through  a
classic grief reaction.  First, there was fear and white-hot rage
alternating  with  denial and terrible grief.   then,  there  was
despair and nights of prayer.  Then, there was courage and  hope.
Finally,  there  was also resolve:  God is with humanity;  if  we
must fight the Reticulians, God will fight for us also.  I  would
argue that he already fights for us, and that the strength of His
arm was seen at Roswell, before anyone even knew we had an enemy.
(figure  2)  For there, in one stroke, a Reticulians' craft  fell
even  as  we celebrated the Fourth of July,  and  our  government
found  the  Reticulians'  craft  shattered  and  the  bodies   of
Reticulians scattered about as food for the buzzards and coyotes.
We  thus knew form the onset that the Reticulians were flesh  and
blood  and not invincible or infallible.  We also knew  they  had
crashed  while  spying on what was then one of  our  most  secret
defense  installations,  showing our  government  their  possible
hostile intent.  So, God has helped us form the beginning, before
we even knew we needed help.
     We  are much stronger militarily than we were in 1947.   The
human  race has never been more technologically advanced or  more
united than it is now.  I believe we are only a breakthrough away
from a unified field theory that will allow us to control gravity
with  electromagnetism.  When we achieve this we will be able  to
duplicate  much  of the Reticulians'  technology  and  eventually
improve on it.  I am myself working on such a theory, and I  know
many others are also working on it; may God help us in our  work.
Finally,  it  is  known  that  weapons  we  already  possess  are
effective  against the Reticulians and their ships.  Many of  the
reported  crashes  of alien ships were not accidents;  they  were
victories  in a secret war with a secret enemy.  Many  brave  men
have died already to defend their country and their people.   Let
us remember their sacrifice.
     So,  with  God's  help,  I  found  courage  and  resolve  to
fight  the  Reticulians and their Axis.  I see reason  for  grave
concern,  but I see reasons to be encouraged also.  We will  win.
We  will win, because God is with us, and we seek His  help.   We
will  win  because we are strong and brave and ready to  die,  if
necessary;  and  we will win because we have  already  shown  our
weapons are powerful against the Axis; and while they may rule in
space,  we  rule on Earth, and in its atmosphere.   We  will  win
because necessity is the mother of invention, and we do not  need
to duplicate Reticulians technology to render it useless to them.
So God, Guts, and Guns are our key allies in victory.

*****************************************************************
Omitted: "figure 2"; Text reads:
The evening of July 4, 1947, in a field near Roswell, New Mexico.
The  irony  of fate dictates, that as the Reticulians  and  their
craft  lay fallen and broken, the nation celebrates  Independence
Day.
*****************************************************************

     Much more could be said about this matter and will be  said;
however,  this  paper  is not about the  present  but  about  the
future.  So, let us now consider how what we have learned in  the
last forty years will impact our future.  In particular, what can
we in Ufology do to positively impact the human future, given our
knowledge of the past forty years.
     Concisely summarized:  The past forty years of Ufology  have
taught us that the Cosmos is like the Earth and that the dynamics
of  nations  in the Cosmos resembles the dynamics of  nations  on
Earth.   On Earth we have seen powerful advanced nations  try  to
oppress weak and less-advanced nations.  We now see a  repetition
of that struggle of nations in a vaster arena with the past forty
years being a struggle between two astonishingly powerful  groups
of  nations  in the Cosmos, humanity and the  Reticulians'  Axis.
There  are  apparently a cloud of other cosmic  nations,  "silent
watchers,"  also  monitoring these events.  So, we  have  learned
something, but what can we do with this knowledge?
     You in Ufology are the only group outside of the  government
that  has the slightest inkling of what the real human  situation
is.   I  have  spoken  of a problem: I will  now  tell  you  what
positive step you can do to help this situation.  The key concern
is that humanity's destiny, so far as it is under the control  of
flesh  and  blood,  is  in  its  own  hands.   So,  it  is  human
intentions,  not  the  intentions of the  Reticulians,  that  are
important.  So, what are your intentions?


IV  THE RAINBOW DECLARATION

     The Rainbow Declaration was written as an attempt to declare
what  the  people of the Earth, humanity,  should  agree  amongst
themselves  and what they should declare to their fellow  peoples
of the Cosmos as to their beliefs and intentions.  Its themes are
equality  and fellowship before God of all peoples of the  Cosmos
and  the basic rights of all peoples.  The prominent  mention  of
God  in  this document is wholly appropriate, I  believe;  and  I
cannot  conceive of a document discussing such basic  rights  and
truths  without  mention  of God.  If there  are  laws  that  are
universal,  then only God can establish them and command  respect
for  them.  If all people are part of a great family,  then  only
God  can  be its head.  I borrowed heavily from  great  works  of
human heritage and science fiction.  Such borrowings are intended
as acts of homage rather than plagiarism.
     The   Rainbow  Declaration  is  also  dialogue.   It  is   a
declaration to God that we recognize our place in the stars.   It
is  a  declaration to the government that we want  to  known  the
truth,  even if it hurts, and that we want the  extraterrestrials
to  be  dealt with in a unified front with the other  nations  of
Earth.   Finally,  it is a declaration to  the  extraterrestrials
themselves that we are ready for an open and equal dialogue  with
them,  that we expect the rights of all peoples to be  respected,
and  that  our  expansion into the Cosmos will not  be  at  their
expense.   In  particular, it will put the Reticulians'  Axis  on
notice that we view their conduct here as unacceptable.

                    THE DECLARATION ANALYZED

     The  Preamble to the Declaration is essentially a  statement
of  who  we  are as a people and our concerns as  people  of  how
precious  the Earth and its environment is to us.  I call for  an
end to slaughter of the whales, because I want all  victimization
of intelligent beings on Earth to stop; and the first step is  to
end our victimization of these intelligent, friendly creatures of
the sea, who were honored by special mention in Genesis as one  of
God's great creations.  (Reference 31)
     The first article states that relation between humanity  and
other  peoples  of the Cosmos should be open and  public.   there
should   be   no   secret  treaties   between   terrestrial   and
extraterrestrial  powers.  The document states that all of  these
relations should be handled through the General Secretary of  the
United Nations, actin in consultation with the Security  council,
and that the Security Council should ratify all agreements.
     This  may  strike  some of you as a  surrender  of  American
sovereignty to the United Nations, which many of you have a  poor
opinion  of.   However, the United States sits  on  the  Security
Council as a permanent member and has veto power over anything it
does  not  like.   (Reference 32)   Reportedly,  in  the  present
situation,  the United States is acting as an ambassador  to  the
Cosmos on humanity's behalf.  Considering all that has reportedly
transpired,  I  do  not think this reflects well on  us,  and  we
should  give  up  the  job.   The  United  Nations  is  a   human
organization and like humanity has many flaws and frailties,  but
the  United  States,  in  my opinion,  would  do  better  leading
humanity  as a loyal member of the United Nations than trying  to
pretend it speaks for humanity.  Much of humanity would  probably
resent  this deeply if they knew the United States were acting  n
this role.
     Article  two  begins by greeting our fellow peoples  of  the
Cosmos  and asking them to pay careful attention to the  list  of
basic  rights.  It also says that we think all peoples are  equal
in God's sight and this may be a revolutionary concept to some in
the  Cosmos.   Much  of  the  rest  of  the  document  is   self-
explanatory, except for the part about genetic code.
     The reference to genetic code deserves special  explanation.
It  was  decided  that this code must be  protected  because  the
genetic code of a people is an instruction book on how to live on
their  planet of Genesis and how to fight the many bacterial  and
viral  infections  found there.  Therefore, to  take  a  people's
genetic  code,  outside  of an open  scientific  exchange,  is  a
hostile   act  and  indicates  an  alien  power  is   considering
colonization of a planet with its own species.
     The final right is the right to assert and defend the rights
listed.   This  is not a fairy tale document; it was  written  in
recognition  that  some people, some nations, and  some  species,
understand only force.  Some in the Cosmos obviously believe that
might  makes right; this is not a new idea on Earth.   Many  have
believed  it in our history, but they were proved  wrong.   right
makes might, friends, and I have written The Rainbow  Declaration
that its truth might strengthen you.
     Finally, the Rainbow Declaration closes with the statements:
that  all  peoples  ought  to treat all  other  peoples  as  they
themselves desire to be treated, and that humanity's highest goal
is to join, as an equal partner, in the community of the  peoples
of the Cosmos.  The Rainbow Declaration is as follows:

                     THE RAINBOW DECLARATION

We, the people of Earth, do make this solemn Rainbow Declaration.
We Acknowledge our common childhood before the Creator, God,  and
Judge  of  all  the  Cosmos,  both  visible  and  invisible.   We
recognize  the planet Earth as our Planet of Genesis,  our  home,
and our hereditary treasure.  We pledge to keep and preserve  the
Earth  for  all humanity for all generations.  We call  upon  all
humanity to treat one another with kindness, justice, and  peace.
We call upon all humanity to work together to ease the effects of
hunger,  disease,  and  overpopulation.  Let  there  be  no  more
killing of the whales, great and small, and let humanity, and the
beauty of the Earth which is humanities.

ARTICLE One

In  true Unity there is strength and general benefit;  therefore,
on all matters concerning extraterrestrial peoples we shall be as
One.   We  recognize the office of the Secretary General  of  the
United  Nations,  acting  with  the advice  and  consent  of  the
Security  Council, as the sole representative of humanity in  all
dealings  with extraterrestrials.  All relations  and  agreements
will  be open and public, and all agreements must be ratified  by
the Security Council to be in force.

ARTICLE Two

To  our fellow peoples in the community of the Cosmos, we  extend
greetings; we recognize you as fellow children of the Creator  of
the Cosmos.  Please give careful consideration to our declaration
that it might serve as a basis for good relations.

Section One

We  hold  these truths to be self-evident, that all  peoples  are
created  equal  and  are  endowed by  the  Creator  with  certain
inalienable rights.

Section Two

The  right  of  Possession of their homeworld,  their  Planet  of
Genesis.  No one shall take any portion of their world from them.

Section Three

The  right of Sanctity of Planet of Genesis from alien  intrusion
or  interference.   No  alien visitation shall  occur  until  the
people realize their Unity and achieve space travel of their own;
this  is  the Prime Directive for all space-faring  peoples.   No
alien  spacecraft  shall  make close approach,  or  assume  close
orbit,  or  make  any landing, except openly and  by  consent  of
global authority.

Section Four

The  right of Possession of Genetic Code.  No alien shall take  a
people's  Genetic  Code  for any  sue,  except  under  reciprocal
scientific exchange, negotiated openly by global authority.

Section Five

The  right to permanent occupation of all bodies  orbiting  their
Planet of Genesis of the sun of their Planet, which is their Star
of  Genesis,  and permanent authority over the  space  containing
these  bodies. No alien bases may be established  permanently  on
bodies or stations orbiting a Planet or Star of Genesis, but must
be  evacuated upon landing by the people of this Planet or  Star,
except  there  shall be negotiated a  treaty  granting  temporary
lease.

Section Six

The  right  of Freedom of Peaceful Navigation of Space  shall  be
enjoyed  by  all  peoples  except where  it  conflicts  with  the
Sanctity of Planet of Genesis.

Section Seven

The  right  of peoples to Assert and  Defend  the  aforementioned
rights  and  the right to give and receive  aid  consistent  with
These rights, when these rights shall be endangered.  In case  of
dispute, the burden of proof-of-innocence shall fall on those who
are  alien,  for it is the burden of the strong and  advanced  to
help preserve the rights of the weak and less advanced.

Final Article

We pledge to uphold these rights and principals in all  relations
with all peoples we shall encounter, whether we be aliens or they
in these encounters.  We declare that all peoples should seek  to
treat  all  other peoples as they themselves would desire  to  be
treated, and that all peoples of the Cosmos should seek  peaceful
and  mutually beneficial relations with each other.   We  declare
that it is our deepest desire that humanity might take its  place
as an honored and valuable member of the community of peoples  of
the Cosmos.

              OWNERSHIP OF THE RAINBOW DECLARATION

     The  Rainbow  Declaration was written by my hand, and  I  am
very proud of it; however, it does not belong to me.  It  belongs
to whomever embraces it and believes its truths and affirmations.
The  Declaration is, for this reason, not copyrighted and  anyone
may  reproduce or sell copies of it with my blessings.  It is  my
gift  to  humanity, because of humanity's faith and  courage  and
strength.   Perhaps  a  better declaration could  be  written;  I
encourage  anyone to try, but I desire, rather, that the  Rainbow
Declaration will be embraced by you for now, so that humanity can
move forward into its destiny.

              THE RAINBOW DECLARATION AS NECESSARY

     I believe the Rainbow Declaration, or some similar statement
of principles, is vital to the future of humanity.  Without  such
a document it will be harder for humanity to find the Way to  its
true  destiny.   The history of humanity is a  history  of  great
documents  that state transcendent principles.   These  documents
and declarations have served to light the Way of humanity and not
only articulated the consensus of the people but helped form it.
     I  therefore  urge  that the  Rainbow  Declaration  or  some
similar  declaration  be endorsed by the major  organizations  of
Ufology  and  from them to the Congress, and then to  the  United
Nations,  so  that all of humanity might come together  on  these
vital issues while we have time to discuss them objectively.
     Before  the future can occur, it must be imagined.  This  is
self-actualization.  Let us imagine and proclaim for ourselves  a
future  where  humanity is a light to the Cosmos, rather  than  a
blot  upon  it  or a victim of it.  Let it  be  that  when  other
peoples  of  the Cosmos think of us they imagine  a  "Rainbow  of
Light."  Let us look into the future.

V  ADVICE TO A YOUNG SPECIES

     You  are  a  young vigorous species and new  to  the  cosmic
scene.  You are strong and full of promise.  Here is some  advice
for you.

     (1)  Trust in God, Guts, and Guns to preserve you among  the
stars.

     (2)  Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.

     (3)  Do justly to all people and preserve the family of life
on all worlds.

     (4)  Never, never give in to bully boys with fancy toys.

     (5)  Talk softly, but always carry a big stick.

     (6)  A people becomes great because of what it loves --  not
because of what it hates.

     (7)   Boldly go where no one has gone before, and seek  your
kindred and your destiny among the stars.

VI  SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS

     I have tried to convey to you my understanding of the  human
situation and the destiny o humanity.  I hope I have succeeded in
causing you to think in new ways about the past, the present, and
the future.
     I  have  spoken to you of the future and of an  increase  of
knowledge.  I have spoken of the day when Ufology as we know  it,
will pass away and will become exoanthropology, the  outstretched
hand  of  humanity  to other  peoples.   For  Ufology  represents
knowledge  in part, and when knowledge that is whole comes,  that
which  is  in  part must pass away.   Exoanthropology  will  then
become the forefront of humanity reaching out to other beings  in
the Cosmos.
     I  have told you we are most likely involved in  a  dialogue
with  other people of the Cosmos.  I think that if this is  done,
our  long journey to reach humanity's destiny will begin  on  the
right path and with the right guide.
     Life on Earth is sometimes harsh and brutal.  Good does  not
survive  or triumph on eArth merely because it exists.   It  must
continually  struggle.   I see no reason to believe life  in  the
Cosmos should be any different.
     I see on Earth the triumph of good, Goodliness, justice, and
democracy,  but  only  after  a long  and  bitter  struggle  that
sometimes looked hopeless.  Earth is part of the Cosmos -- not an
anomaly  of it -- and good triumphs here.  It must  also  triumph
elsewhere.
     It is possible that Mars holds the same drama recorded there
as  we see on Earth, but this drama ended tragically  there.   If
this is the case, let us never forget what Mars teaches us.
     Our participation in the dialogue of the Cosmos tells us the
same  message.  I think there is much good in the Cosmos as  well
as  evil; we know this from the reports of  friendly,  respectful
contacts we have heard, and we know it from the good we see  here
on  our  own  world and in our own people.  This is  how  I  know
things will be well in the end.
     However, if we are to achieve this good, we must strive  for
it,k  and  we  must declare our allegiance to  it.   We  must  be
prepared for struggle to ensure the triumph of good.  to see  our
true  path, we must have open eyes and minds.  We must  be  brave
and  force  ourselves  to  comprehend what  we  do  not  want  to
comprehend,  but which is true and must be accepted.   Only  then
can our light truly shine in the Cosmos.
     I tell you again that based on my analyses, the  Reticulians
and  their Axis allies mean to destroy humanity and possess  this
planet  for  themselves.  The character, depth, and  duration  of
their  activities  here can indicate nothing else.  You  must  be
prepared  to  use  any  means necessary  to  stop  them  in  this
intention:  to surrender is death -- to fight them is life.
     I  say further that if you are not prepared to  accept  this
sad  truth, even as a possibility, then you are not really  ready
to  know  the truth about the last forty years.   I  believe  our
government  can no longer keep this Star Wars Secret any  longer;
to  fight the Reticulians will require a level of  resources  and
public sacrifice no secret program can ask.  To gain victory over
the  Reticulians,  mobilization,  not secrecy,  must  become  the
government's first priority.  The terrible truth must be let  out
to be confronted by the government and ourselves and all of Earth
in  the broad daylight.  It is only then that this threat can  be
overcome.   You  have a role to play in this  conflict.   I  have
given you the Rainbow Declaration.  It is a powerful weapon;  use
it.

     I  believe, with God's help, humanity is strong enough,  and
brave  enough,  and clever enough, to triumph  in  this  conflict
which  we  did  not  begin.  The Reticulians  may  be  a  Goliath
technologically,  but  morally and ethically, they  are  pygmies;
this is the root of their defeat.
     You  may  see in the Reticulians an  ancient  and  brilliant
race; I see a forlorn and empty people, fallen and corrupted from
the state wherein they developed the technology they now possess,
debasing  themselves on the Earth, victimizing the  helpless  and
crudely terrorizing the defenseless.  Their actions reveal  their
weaknesses -- as it is said "what you are shouts so loud I cannot
hear what you are saying."
     The fact that a nation should come to us from another  star,
riding  in  vessels  of  brilliant  technology  and  yet   commit
unspeakable  crimes here is shocking; yet it is quite  consistent
with our understanding of elemental evil from the ancient  books.
It  is  curious that Reticuli means "net," and the  net  is  used
throughout  the Bible as a symbol of evil, misfortune,  and  also
testing.  As it is written in Ecclesiastes 9:11:

         "I  returned and saw under the Sun that the race is  not
         to  the swift nor the battle to the strong, neither  yet
         bread   to   the  wise,  nor  yet  riches  to   men   of
         understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but  time
         and chance happened to the all.
         "For a man knoweth not his time; as the fishes are taken
         in  an  evil net and as the birds that are caught  in  a
         snare;  so are the sons of man snared in an  evil  time,
         when it falleth suddenly upon them."
     We  also  see the net used as symbol of testing  in  Matthew
13:01  and in the last, gentle moment of John's record of  Jesus,
(Reference 33) as perhaps an allegory of a testing of the nations
of Earth, which like the fish netted in the story number  roughly
150.  So, perhaps someone who has known this all would occur  has
left  these  mysterious symbols of this knowledge.   So,  let  us
seek  the Way and the truth and the light, and oppose  evil  with
all our might.
     The Reticulians and their Axis do not know the Way; if  they
did, they would not do the things they have done here.  As it  is
written,  "by their fruits you shall know them."  (Reference  34)
So comfort yourselves in God and in the brave heritage of  Earth.
Perhaps a great storm comes, but all is calm now, and after forty
years  of the Reticulians's attempts to dominate here, the  Earth
still stands, and humanity still stands, more brilliant and  more
powerful than ever before.  So, let us be of good courage; if the
Reticulians  are  here  to destroy us, then  they  are  obviously
having  a difficult time.  For Sun Tzu instructs us:   (Reference
35)

         "There  fore  I have heard of military  operations  that
         were  clumsy, but swift, but I have never seen one  that
         was  skillful  and  lasted a long  time.   It  is  never
         beneficial  to  a nation to have  a  military  operation
         continue a long time."

     If  it  is so, and I suspect it is, our  government,  rather
than being a villain, is actually a hero in many ways as are many
of  our  abductees, who have resisted the terror tactics  of  the
Reticulians.   It is mainly the government that has  opposed  the
Reticulians  for forty years.  Let us remember also that  if  the
Secret  Star  Wars scenario is true, then many brave men  of  our
nation  and many other nations have died fighting in a  war  that
few even guessed existed, their loved ones never knowing why they
died or how.  This same government made up of men and women  like
ourselves and prone to the same mistakes, has struggled  mightily
to  both hold the Reticulians' Axis at bay and at the  same  time
carry on a dialogue with them to try and gain desperately  needed
knowledge of their technology.  If this is so, then it is  little
wonder  that the truth has been hidden and why those who knew  it
have  kept this truth with such determined secrecy.  For  no  one
can  keep a secret like a man who believes he holds  truths  that
will  devastate  those whom he loves.  So, let us not  judge  our
government  nor condemn them for the mistakes they may have  made
in  this struggle.  I have not walked in their shoes and  neither
have you, so let us stand with them.

                             SUMMARY

         In summary, I have stressed three main points:

              (1)  That it is the destiny of humanity to find its
              greatness and its kindred among the stars.

              (2)   The  humanity is prepared  for  this  destiny
              because the Earth is a microcosm of the Cosmos  and
              its people, with the dynamics between people in the
              Cosmos resembling the dynamics of nations on Earth.

              (3)  That in order to find the Way to its  destiny,
              humanity  must  make  a  document  similar  to  the
              Rainbow  Declaration  its creed and guide.   It  is
              only  in this way that humanity can find the  right
              Way to its true destiny in the stars.

     Finally, trust in God, for He made the Cosmos both seen  and
unseen  and  all it contains.  Surely He has  helped  us  already
against the dangers of the Cosmos.  But He has also allowed these
dangers  to come upon us for His own mysterious reasons.  Let  us
not  disappoint  him  in our dealing  with  these  dangers.   God
delights in courage and bravery.  Be people of faith, like it  is
written,  who  "turned  to  fight  the  armies  of  the   aliens.
(Reference  36)   Joyfully  go  forth to  seek  the  wonders  and
challenges that lay beyond the present and which are our destiny.
So   humanity,   beloved  children  of  Earth,  reach   for   the
stars...boldly go...
                           REFERENCES

1.  John  E.  Brandenburg, MUFON UFO  Journal,  p.  15,  October
    (1989).

2.  T. Walter Wallbank, Alistair M. Taylor, and Nels M.  Bailey,
    Civilization  Past  and Present 3rd Edition,  p.  14,  Scott,
    Foreman, and Company, Glenview, Illinois (1967).

3.  Preston  Cloud,  Oasis in Space, p.  402,  W.W.  Norton  and
    Company, New York (1988).

4.  Whitley Streiber, Transformation:  The Breakthrough,  p.  10,
Beech Tree Books, William Morrow, New York (1988).

5.  Ananda Sirisena, Beyond Science, U.K.  (out of print).

6.  Carl G. Jung et al, Man and His Symbols, p.55, Doubleday  and
    Company, New York (1964).

7.  James  Strong,  The Exhaustive  Concordance  of  the  Bible,
    p.1189, Abington Press, New York, Copyright 1890.

8.  Timothy Good, Above Top Secret, P. 293, William  Morrow  and
    Company, Inc., New York (1988).

9.  Jane Goodall, The Chimpanzees of Gombe: Patterns of Behavior,
    p. 529, The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, London
    (1986).

10. Robert  T.  Bakker,  The  Dinosaur  Heresies:  New  Theories
    Unlocking The Mystery of the Dinosaurs and Their  Extinction,
    p. 371, William Morrow and Company, New York (1986).

11. Civilization Past and Present, p. 16.

12. Carl Sagan and Iosef S. Shkolovskii, Intelligent Life in  The
    Universe, Holden Day, San Francisco (1960).

13. L.S.  Stavrianos, The World Since 1500,  A  Global  History,
    Prentice Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs, N.J. (1971).

14. Carl Von Clausewitz, On War, p. 119, Penguin  Books,  London
    (1968).

15. Sun Tzu, translation by Thomas Cleary, The Art of War, p. 41,
    Shambhala, Boston, and Shaftsbury (1968).

16. Terence  Dickenson,  "The Zeta Reticuli  Incident,"   p.  7,
    Astromedia   Corp.   (publishers   of   Astronomy   Magazine)
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin (1976).

17. The Art of War, p. 67.

18. Ibid. p. 43.

19. Ibid. p. 91.

20. Ibid. p. 104.

21. "Transformation: The Breakthrough," p. 94.

22. Linda  Moulton  Howe,  An Alien  Harvest,  p.  355,  Pioneer
    Printing, Cheyenne, Wyoming (1989).

23. Budd Hopkins, Intruders: The Incredible Visitations At Copely
    Woods, p. 118, Ballentine Books, New York (1987)

24. Jacques  F. Vallee, MUFON 1989 International  UFO  Symposium
    Proceedings, p. 32.

25. Jorge Martin, MUFON UFO Journal, p. 20, January 1990.

26. Above Top Secret, p. 273.

27. John Lear, Private Communication.

28. The Bible, Luke 4:9-12.

29. The Bible, II Corinthians 11:14.

30. The Art of War, p. 168.

31. The Bible, Genesis 1:21.

32. John A. Garraty, The American Nation, p. 777, Harper and  Row
    Publishers, New York (1975).

33. The Bible, John 21:6-11.

34. The Bible, Matthew 7:20.

35. The Art of War, p. 58.

36. The Bible, Hebrews 11:34.

              DISCLAIMER BY THE MUTUAL UFO NETWORK

     This  article is based upon compiled material researched  by
John  E.  Brandenburg,  Ph.D.  from  numerous  sources  per   the
references  indicated at the end of his paper.   Contingent  upon
his study and research into this vitally important problem,  this
is  his  personal  scenario, evaluation and  predictions  to  the
mystery  behind  the alien/entities conflict and  their  possible
intentions for the people of the planet Earth.  Some readers  may
consider  that his entire scenario is nothing more  then  science
fiction relating to the present and future.
     Historical   events   and  the  Bible  support   the   past.
Historians remind us that we should heed the past with a jaundice
and   educated  eye,  because  experience  gained  and   mistakes
committed  provide the wisdom for future decisions in  our  lives
and  that of our worldly constituents.  We must never lose  sight
of the fact that yesterdays science fiction is tomorrows  reality
--Buck  Rogers  yesterday  and NASA space  travel  today.   As  a
physicist,   Dr.   Brandenburg,  has   presented   his   personal
explanation  and  forecast for the future as it  relates  to  the
visitation  of extraterrestrial entities to the planet Earth  and
the serious implications to mankind of their apparent intent.
     The  theme of the 1990 symposium proceedings is  "UFOs:  The
Impact  of E.T. Contact Upon Society."  This paper has  been  Dr.
Brandenburg's scholarly attemp